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What legion best suits a CSM Sorcerer-based army? I'd like the main gist of the list to be Sorcerers, but I'd be more than happy to incorporate CSMs, Terminators, Havocs, etc. Could anyone give me a general idea of the direction I should be looking?
(Note: I know about the Thousand Sons, but I'd rather not make a TS army.)
Thousand Sons if you really want to go Sorcerer heavy. There are 3 different formations that are basically nothing but, each having soe variant on generating warp charges on a 3+
Thousand Sons have a formation made up of only sorcerors. You can also go full on cheese with the OTHER formation made up of only sorcerors, daemon princes, and Magnus himself. T-sons are also one of only two legions with access to Exalted Sorcerors I believe (Basically Chaos Lord-level Sorcerors). Just be aware that everything is forced to take at least some of the Lore of Tzeentch and this can get heinously expensive at times.
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
I'd say Black Legion for anything and Word Bearers specifically for summoning. However, the main point in favour of Black Legion is the cyclopia Cabal which is a standalone formation. That means it's incredibly easy to incorporate into any army you want, which means making the rest of the army Black Legion isn't really necessary. They are the only Legion with non marked fearless sorcerers though if you take a unit of chosen or terminators to accompany them.
They also have access to the exalted Sorcerer like the TSons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/27 02:04:57
Yes. The Black Legion can use any and all units/marks except for named characters. Word Bearers too, but they can't use units that come with a default mark.
Although, when you take an exalted sorcerer in BL, you loose access to the TSons relics and the blessing of tzeentch and instead choose from the BL relics and you gain (endless) hatred instead of the blessing. Not having access to seers bane makes them decidedly less interesting, but they still bring divination which is still really good.
Plus there is no fluff problem with joining a sorcerer to a khorne squad or said squad getting some nurgly love.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/27 02:50:57
TapedTempest wrote: Are you sure that Black Legion can use Exalted Sorcerers?
they can, anyone can, HOWEVER they have no formations allowing the use of exaulted sorcs. cycloptia cabel is standard sorcs only. and as such black legion are no b etter at using exulted sorcs then anyone else,
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
TapedTempest wrote: Are you sure that Black Legion can use Exalted Sorcerers?
they can, anyone can, HOWEVER they have no formations allowing the use of exaulted sorcs. cycloptia cabel is standard sorcs only. and as such black legion are no b etter at using exulted sorcs then anyone else,
No, ONLY Black Legion can use them. Aside from Thousand Sons of course. The other non cult legions all have a restriction that they may not take any marks at all.
Word Bearers get it slightly better in that they may upgrade marks but still cannot take units with default marks and this comes with the mark of tzeentch.
The other cult legions can take only one mark appropriate to their god. Only the Black Legion has no restriction on marks at all and is thus the only other legion that can use exalted sorcerers and the other TSons units like scarab occult and what have you.
Plus (in all likelyhood) whatever we will be getting with the next death guard release.
Which then means the black legion is literally the only legion that can use the entire codex(including even crimson slaughter) other than going vanilla, as Tsons won't be able to use the new deathguard.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/27 13:21:11
Chalk up another recommendation for Black Legion here. My current 1850 has about 500 points in a Sorcerer Cabal and it's been awesome.
I don't know why anyone would want to get Exalted Sorcerers unless they have a really specific thing in mind. IMO it's better to have unmarked Sorcerers so they can join marked squads of any flavor.
Shroud of Deceit (the Cabal power) is one of the dirtiest powers in the game. It feels a little like a schoolyard bully taking a kids hand and hitting their face with it, all the time saying "Why are you punching yourself?". Last night I was using a Tau players Broadsides to shoot at and kill his other Broadsides. It's so mean.
For disciplines I've mostly been using some combination of Ectomancy, Telepathy and Geomancy, with a single 1 ML Sorcerer with Malefic so I can summon Daemons if I feel like it.
@Rocknar: Btw, two 20-man clouds of models now. One cloud of Hounds of Abaddon CSMs, and one cloud of Hounds Berzerkers. (which is stupid expensive, but it's what I have painted.)
Insectum7 wrote: Chalk up another recommendation for Black Legion here. My current 1850 has about 500 points in a Sorcerer Cabal and it's been awesome.
I don't know why anyone would want to get Exalted Sorcerers unless they have a really specific thing in mind. IMO it's better to have unmarked Sorcerers so they can join marked squads of any flavor.
Shroud of Deceit (the Cabal power) is one of the dirtiest powers in the game. It feels a little like a schoolyard bully taking a kids hand and hitting their face with it, all the time saying "Why are you punching yourself?". Last night I was using a Tau players Broadsides to shoot at and kill his other Broadsides. It's so mean.
For disciplines I've mostly been using some combination of Ectomancy, Telepathy and Geomancy, with a single 1 ML Sorcerer with Malefic so I can summon Daemons if I feel like it.
@Rocknar: Btw, two 20-man clouds of models now. One cloud of Hounds of Abaddon CSMs, and one cloud of Hounds Berzerkers. (which is stupid expensive, but it's what I have painted.)
Exalted Sorcerers have access to divination and telekinesis....I guess. Not so useful for Black Legion proper, but it's not a bad choice as an allied detachment HQ with ObSec chosen or termies to gain access to diviniation.
CS sorcerers are locked out of other relics and you're stuck with either basic marines or cultists. TSons need to take those or Rubrics. Of course you could spring for daemons instead, but the BL option isn't bad either.
It's effectively tax free access to divination ( well MoT I guess). That said, BL are slowly shaping up to be a nice CAD legion with them getting new nurgle units soon.
They work well with a Black Legion warband too. Ghost storm/soulswitch/levitate/etc a unit of plasma chosen into rapid fire range and let loose the hounds of war with divination re-rolls/ignore cover or overwatch 5 plasmas on full BS.
And in assaults the sorc is still no slouch, seers bane or not. Never mind the chosen with their 3 attacks base.
Basically, it's a nice option to have when you want it. It's hardly mandatory, but yea, it's not bad.
Also, aren't 20 zerker total overkill lol? How's that going for you? Certainly wouldn't mind an excuse to field more zerkers Have you tried the tormented? I suppose with the hounds all running around you migh be able to slip them by. I want to like them so I can buy some gal vorbak as proxxies lol. They hit like trucks.....IF you can get into CC without being at I1 -_-.
Roknar wrote: I'd say Black Legion for anything and Word Bearers specifically for summoning.
Even then I'd personally go Daemon Prince heavy with Word Bearers.
Daemonology will benefit the Prince with its non-summoning powers and not Perils on a double.
Sort of tempted to come up with a nice themed WB Decurion, perhaps even running the Possessed Formation a few times.
Agreed. They still get power armour so it still passes a marine unit...kinda lol.
Though if it has to be a normal marine unit, a nurgle sorc with palanquin isn't a bad option either.
Nurgle might heal you up and as your warlord he might even become mastery 4 so you wouldn't even lose anything for being nurgle marked. Or get the tome for three rolls on malefic either way. With the trait it would be 4 so it's not wasted either.
Even if he becomes a prince through boons, he would only become better at summoning.
I still don't like the possessed formation though lol. It's just too many possessed and you can loose it all when(not if lol) your prince dies so eeeeh.
The Black Legion tormented formation doesn't paint NEARLY as big a neon sign on their prince and you need less possessed. And personally, I think the buffs are better too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/27 19:02:39
Exalted Sorcerers have access to divination and telekinesis....I guess. Not so useful for Black Legion proper, but it's not a bad choice as an allied detachment HQ with ObSec chosen or termies to gain access to diviniation. CS sorcerers are locked out of other relics and you're stuck with either basic marines or cultists. TSons need to take those or Rubrics. Of course you could spring for daemons instead, but the BL option isn't bad either. It's effectively tax free access to divination ( well MoT I guess). That said, BL are slowly shaping up to be a nice CAD legion with them getting new nurgle units soon.
They work well with a Black Legion warband too. Ghost storm/soulswitch/levitate/etc a unit of plasma chosen into rapid fire range and let loose the hounds of war with divination re-rolls/ignore cover or overwatch 5 plasmas on full BS. And in assaults the sorc is still no slouch, seers bane or not. Never mind the chosen with their 3 attacks base.
Basically, it's a nice option to have when you want it. It's hardly mandatory, but yea, it's not bad.
Well, since Geomancy can get a better ignores-cover power, Divination's big spell for me becomes the Prescience as you say. But even in your example with Chosen, I feel the points required for the Exalted Sorcerer isn't worth the minor boost in firepower to the Chosen. You could get another Chosen Squad loaded out with Plasma for the same cost. IMO the damage output for the points isn't worth it, and is still situational even with the Plasma Guns. It might be worth it for a Renegade Knight, but at that point you're buiding a much different army.
For Prescience, I'd almost rather take the cheaper, unmarked ML 3 basic Sorcerers, choose Maelific Daemonology and fish for the power that lets me summon a Herald of Tzeentch. Which sounds like a roundabout way to do it, but it's cheaper by far, and leaves the list more flexible.
Also, aren't 20 zerker total overkill lol? How's that going for you? Certainly wouldn't mind an excuse to field more zerkers Have you tried the tormented? I suppose with the hounds all running around you migh be able to slip them by. I want to like them so I can buy some gal vorbak as proxxies lol. They hit like trucks.....IF you can get into CC without being at I1 -_-.
The 20 man Zerker Squad is a bit of a crazy take, as it comes to 400+ points. The benefit to running huge squads though is that a single spell affects a huge number of models. (And it's more than likely you'll lose some on the way in.) With two big blobs and Characters attached, it's pretty easy to get them up-field with the 10 total ML spell rolls. Last night I got a particularly choice combination of spells, and I was able to Ghost Storm a squad of 23 (20CSMs, 2 Sorcerers and a Lord) up the table and then make them Invisible, after which they ran another 4" in the shooting phase, putting them only 4" away from the Tau gunline in the first turn. Having so many choppy models well into a firing line in one round is spectacular for forcing enemy action.
The 20 man mobs also help protect the Characters in them from fire, but after taking hits, the Characters can split off and join another unit (like Spawn) as they begin assaults. Because the blob started with so many models, it can still be viable for assaulting after the characters split off, allowing you to effectively charge more units (because the Spawn have caught up, and will also be charging). You shuffle the Characters around to maximize your assaults with the arrival of fresh units, and then you just go for it.
If I had been more clever, I could have Soulswitched my Spawn out for the second 20 man unit, and charged Tau with 30 odd (45 minus 10ish casualties) models in the 2nd turn.
That said, once I have the models painted, I may replace the Zerker squad with a smaller one, and another 20 man CSM squad, simply because it's more cost-efficient in points. The Zerker blob is 405, while the CSM blob is 320. It's a little sad, because I really like how the Berzerkers look.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/27 19:58:59
Exalted Sorcerers have access to divination and telekinesis....I guess. Not so useful for Black Legion proper, but it's not a bad choice as an allied detachment HQ with ObSec chosen or termies to gain access to diviniation.
CS sorcerers are locked out of other relics and you're stuck with either basic marines or cultists. TSons need to take those or Rubrics. Of course you could spring for daemons instead, but the BL option isn't bad either.
It's effectively tax free access to divination ( well MoT I guess). That said, BL are slowly shaping up to be a nice CAD legion with them getting new nurgle units soon.
They work well with a Black Legion warband too. Ghost storm/soulswitch/levitate/etc a unit of plasma chosen into rapid fire range and let loose the hounds of war with divination re-rolls/ignore cover or overwatch 5 plasmas on full BS.
And in assaults the sorc is still no slouch, seers bane or not. Never mind the chosen with their 3 attacks base.
Basically, it's a nice option to have when you want it. It's hardly mandatory, but yea, it's not bad.
Well, since Geomancy can get a better ignores-cover power, Divination's big spell for me becomes the Prescience as you say. But even in your example with Chosen, I feel the points required for the Exalted Sorcerer isn't worth the minor boost in firepower to the Chosen. You could get another Chosen Squad loaded out with Plasma for the same cost. IMO the damage output for the points isn't worth it, and is still situational even with the Plasma Guns. It might be worth it for a Renegade Knight, but at that point you're buiding a much different army.
For Prescience, I'd almost rather take the cheaper, unmarked ML 3 basic Sorcerers, choose Maelific Daemonology and fish for the power that lets me summon a Herald of Tzeentch. Which sounds like a roundabout way to do it, but it's cheaper by far, and leaves the list more flexible.
Also, aren't 20 zerker total overkill lol? How's that going for you? Certainly wouldn't mind an excuse to field more zerkers Have you tried the tormented? I suppose with the hounds all running around you migh be able to slip them by. I want to like them so I can buy some gal vorbak as proxxies lol. They hit like trucks.....IF you can get into CC without being at I1 -_-.
The 20 man Zerker Squad is a bit of a crazy take, as it comes to 400+ points. The benefit to running huge squads though is that a single spell affects a huge number of models. (And it's more than likely you'll lose some on the way in.) With two big blobs and Characters attached, it's pretty easy to get them up-field with the 10 total ML spell rolls. Last night I got a particularly choice combination of spells, and I was able to Ghost Storm a squad of 23 (20CSMs, 2 Sorcerers and a Lord) up the table and then make them Invisible, after which they ran another 4" in the shooting phase, putting them only 4" away from the Tau gunline in the first turn. Having so many choppy models well into a firing line in one round is spectacular for forcing enemy action.
The 20 man mobs also help protect the Characters in them from fire, but after taking hits, the Characters can split off and join another unit (like Spawn) as they begin assaults. Because the blob started with so many models, it can still be viable for assaulting after the characters split off, allowing you to effectively charge more units (because the Spawn have caught up, and will also be charging). You shuffle the Characters around to maximize your assaults with the arrival of fresh units, and then you just go for it.
If I had been more clever, I could have Soulswitched my Spawn out for the second 20 man unit, and charged Tau with 30 odd (45 minus 10ish casualties) models in the 2nd turn.
That said, once I have the models painted, I may replace the Zerker squad with a smaller one, and another 20 man CSM squad, simply because it's more cost-efficient in points. The Zerker blob is 405, while the CSM blob is 320. It's a little sad, because I really like how the Berzerkers look.
The sorcerer is actually more expensive, or equal as an allied detachment. You'd need the sorc plus two units of cultists.
That's 235 points minimum for a lvl 3 sorc with star and nothing else plus min sized cultists. 185 as allies.
By comparison, at least for BL in a CAD, the exalted sorc is also 185 with mastery level 3. He also doesn't require any additional units. So if you're playing marines only, then you have another 50 points to spend on whatever.
Marines only as in, not using allied daemons. That can't really be beaten in efficiency.
So you get a much better character at the cost of 10 cultists. Well, and one roll less on the table of you choice, but Tzeentch isn't as bad as it used to be so I'm ok with that.
Plus, in the case of chosen, I don't usually mark them either.
As for geomancy, sure. But it divination has more useful spells over all (and I hate worldwrithe ). Foreboding, perfect timing, prescience are all good, even forewarning or misfortune aren't bad. As is precognition, since the psyker is effectively a chaos lord already.
Same for ectomany. Ghost storm and soulswitch both work to get into rapid fire range and infernal claws somewhat makes up for the lack of models. Even without prescience you still have 6 attacks with hatred so you can easily generate another 10-12 S5 attacks.
More if you spring for a daemon weapon. It's a win-win situation for the chosen. Charge or be charged, I don't mind either way, well, outside of being shot to pieces that is.
I don't do it because, as you say, the cabal is great and I already have all the psykers I need with that. But I wouldn't compare the exalted sorcerer to taking another unit of chosen.
Rather I want to take psykers one way or another. That can be from a cabal or another source, for example, the exalted sorc. Individually, the exalted are more interesting to me than a normal sorcerer.
So if I still wanted a psyker AFTER the cabal? I would consider an exalted sorcerer.
The cabal is too good though not to start with that and will usually meet your psyker needs already so there's rarely a spot open for the exalted. And you're not going to take a single psyker either.
It's not so much that the exalted sorcerer is bad, it's that there are better choices yet. Plus a psyker daemon prince is even more of a beatstick, so there is that to consider too and with relics, the exalt will run you 200+ points too.
But here we're talking about making a non TS psyker army here, so maybe there is a spot for it. They're something between a sorcerer and a daemon prince, in casting, melee and points.
They're an incredibly flexible unit in that sense
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/27 20:56:25
I went through a huge mess of this recently making a similar army with 3 sorcerers and the lord on discs. The only option I found that worked was using a "Black Warband" detachment, a "Cyclopean Cabal", and I threw in a "Lost & the Damned" to have some fun cultist running around.
More than basic CSM, Orcs, IG, or Tyranids, you play TSons for love of the legion (or in my case man achieving god-like powers through the patron God of Sorcery).
Bottom line is Black Legion is more optimal due to allowing you to use "competitive" CSM units without locking you into TSons legion rules/formations.
PPM I'd say TSons are one of the worst off as it stands simply due to the volatility of the psychic phase. No other army pays such a high PPM for something that can fail, be denied, is RNG based for generation, and removes options (equipment, a ML power, etc.). This, in conjunction with gaps in the army structure (ie. lack of viable weapon options, limitations on unit choices, mark ineffectiveness on generic CSM units w/o base invuln) puts them in a very hard place to play.
TSons are even heavier RNG than stock CSM (everything psychic, boon table, spawn, etc.). If you enjoy playing Chaos in Mordheim, or games like Blood Bowl with mutation teams and don't mind volatility of ab elite army you're good to go. If you want something closer to a normal army, with some spell casting, BL is the choice.
WB is meh to me. Awesome fluff, I don't dig the rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/27 22:51:45
