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We all know the story, Magnus breaks his daddy's DIY project, gets all pouty and lets the Space Wolves commit some light war crimes on his city.

But what if he had surrendered to Tzeentch as soon as the Wolves were mobilised and tried his darnedest to fight them off? How would the burning of Prospero and the following Horus Heresy have played out?

I imagine the TS would have repelled the initial attack without much trouble and then Horus might have used Prospero as a mini-Isstvan V scenario in order to cull the remaining Space Wolves and maybe another loyalist legion like the Dark Angels/Ultramarines. One thing leads to another, the loyalists are massively outnumbered, Horus is declared king of Pride Rock, humanity self-destructs in a fit of Chaos worship, the Warp calms down, the Eldar party for a little while until the Necrons and Tyranids show up and duke it out with the Orks for eternity.

That is assuming Tzeentch doesn't foresee this happening and decides to throw a spanner into Horus' proverbial works.

I think it may have happened anyway as Tzeentch's way of messing with Magnus. Like he'd damned himself and his men to ensure the planet would be safe as some deal with Tzeentch and its like "well you saved this little rock here, good job!".

I do think they would have survived the intial SW attack. The SW already only won because the talons , mostly the sisters, were on the planet.

Tzeentch offers Magnus to destroy the SW fleet outright while in the warp. If he had taken this offer there might not have been a fight at all.

I doubt your Isstvan scenario tough. Too much war, not enough legions in the vicinity.

That said, planning your own demise for eternity would be a very Tzeentchy thing to do.

Reading a Thousand Sons makes it quite apparent that if he had fought from the beginning the wolves wouldn't have stood a chance. By the time they arrive, Magnus has (off the top of my head).

Disbanded his fleet.
Deactivated the vast majority of his orbital defences.
Turned off any of Prospero's shields that he could do without attracting his sons attention.
Killed the Legions best Telepath when he tried to go over Magnus' head.
Spent a few weeks hiding from his Legion, leaving them with no warning of whats coming.

Any one of those would have dramatically increased SW casualties, and all of them plus Magnus own powers would have, at best for the Imperium, led to the near destruction of both SW and TS. Understandably Prospero Burns has a different view on the subject, but none of them deny that it there would have been a much higher toll if Magnus hadn't sat around moping.

I agree, if Magnus had fought back the Wolves would have been destroyed, but he hamstrung his forces himself.

if Magnus fought back the space wolves and 1k sons both would have been destroyed. Horus was counting on that

The TS wouldn't have been destroyed, as well as the SW, but would have been severly weakened. They bouth would not be able to play a significant role in the Heresy. TS joined Horus only during the Siege of Terra, so the traitors wouldn't have suffered much.

Of course it would have gone harder for the SW if Magnus put up a real fight. But Leman Russ was counting on Magnus actually fighting him - why would he have walked into a fight he could not win or could only win by destroying his own legion? One would have to assume he was arrogant to the point of being a moron and I don't see evidence to support that.

Manchu wrote:
why would he have walked into a fight he could not win or could only win by destroying his own legion?

That is what they were there to do though, the whole point of the space wolves as a legion was to destroy the biggest nastiest threat there was even if that meant their own demise.
as for the scenario, am gonna echo what others have said and say that both legions would be destroyed with large casualties of the talons, exactly as Horus planned.

 Glasdir wrote:
even if that meant their own demise

I don't believe the story has ever been framed in those terms. Russ was not there to commit suicide.

Russ also (from the perspective of the book I read) seemed overconfident. It certainly felt that he honestly believed there at the end, when Magnus was stalling for his sons that the Thousand Sons had been fighting with everything they had the whole time. I doubt it would even cross Russ' mind that his legion would have been out matched, let alone been at a disadvantage with both the custodes and the sisters with his force... So to him, it wasn't suicide. Probably went as smoothly as he thought it would with Magnus killing all of their main defenses and letting his legion get ambushed.

That boils down to an argument that Russ is just a moron. I mean, you are saying that he mistook a disorganized clusterfeth for the best the 1kSons could possibly manage.

Russ is also the first fellow to state the whole "Rune priests aren't psykers, we swears", and generally acting like a dick. Examples include him expected the White Scars to just believe him that their buddy legion were actually evil, or his starting a fight with the Lion just because the Lion killed a normal human Russ wanted to kill and so on.
To me, Leman Russ seems to have inherited a bit of his fathers knack for ignoring details that don't suit him. Not saying I hate him, he's certainly not either my favourite or my least favourite primarch.

Besides, as I pointed out above, Magnus deciding to fight from the very beginning doesn't just bring Magnus and his powers to the table, but it also brings the TS fleet, orbital defences, and ruins any element of surprise.

Manchu wrote:
Of course it would have gone harder for the SW if Magnus put up a real fight. But Leman Russ was counting on Magnus actually fighting him - why would he have walked into a fight he could not win or could only win by destroying his own legion? One would have to assume he was arrogant to the point of being a moron and I don't see evidence to support that.

The Space Wolves took more casualties when the Alpha Legion ambushed them on the way to Terra after Prospero.

Didn't Magnus say he could crush their ships with a mere thought. ?

Mudrat wrote:
Russ is also the first fellow to state the whole "Rune priests aren't psykers, we swears", and generally acting like a dick. Examples include him expected the White Scars to just believe him that their buddy legion were actually evil, or his starting a fight with the Lion just because the Lion killed a normal human Russ wanted to kill and so on.
To me, Leman Russ seems to have inherited a bit of his fathers knack for ignoring details that don't suit him. Not saying I hate him, he's certainly not either my favourite or my least favourite primarch.

Besides, as I pointed out above, Magnus deciding to fight from the very beginning doesn't just bring Magnus and his powers to the table, but it also brings the TS fleet, orbital defences, and ruins any element of surprise.

Russ's reasoning in the Nikea council was due to bad information - can't remember the scource, I hope it wasn't fanfiction - Russ had witnessed the Flesh change in the Thousand Sons and the Wulfen in his own Space Wolves for the first time when they worked together, he linked them both to the Sons' excess exposure to the Warp (couldn't possibly be a flaw in the Emperor's work) and Magnus himself being a collossal psychic mutant. Because the Rune Priests tap the warp differently to the Sons Psychers Russ assumed the blame was with their training, along with their martial doctrine and tactics that he already hated.
The fact the Sisters of Silence have worked beside the Space Wolves Rune Priests/Skjalds on multiple occassions without comment on their Psycher abilities suggests there might be some merit to the Space Wolves' belief that what they are is 'different'.

That fight between Russ and El Johnson has been somewhat retconned recently, according to his latest novel Russ and the Space Wolves were dubbed the "Executioners" because they were sent to systems to take heads and make an example rather than free the population - the Lion agreed to let Russ do his duty then got forced to take the head anyway, Russ was not impressed the sucker punch has been replaced by a good number of insults being hurled before the first punch.

Russ's reasoning in the Nikea council was due to bad information - can't remember the scource, I hope it wasn't fanfiction - Russ had witnessed the Flesh change in the Thousand Sons and the Wulfen in his own Space Wolves for the first time when they worked together, he linked them both to the Sons' excess exposure to the Warp (couldn't possibly be a flaw in the Emperor's work) and Magnus himself being a collossal psychic mutant. Because the Rune Priests tap the warp differently to the Sons Psychers Russ assumed the blame was with their training, along with their martial doctrine and tactics that he already hated.
The fact the Sisters of Silence have worked beside the Space Wolves Rune Priests/Skjalds on multiple occassions without comment on their Psycher abilities suggests there might be some merit to the Space Wolves' belief that what they are is 'different'.

That fight between Russ and El Johnson has been somewhat retconned recently, according to his latest novel Russ and the Space Wolves were dubbed the "Executioners" because they were sent to systems to take heads and make an example rather than free the population - the Lion agreed to let Russ do his duty then got forced to take the head anyway, Russ was not impressed the sucker punch has been replaced by a good number of insults being hurled before the first punch.

Wall of text ahoy!

Ok, I'm a bit behind the most recent fluff with regards to Lion and Russ. About the whole Rune priests thing, in A Thousand Sons we actually see the incident firsthand. I've listed what I felt the key points are below:

SW, TS, WB and their primarchs are all attacking a single planet (poor buggers).
The wolves drop everywhere and start murdering, the TS secure the big-arse library, and the WB's advance with the Imperial Army.
The TS and the other psykers get hit with a pulse of psychic energy when russ joins the battle from simple proximity. Its mentioned that a whole bunch of the telepathic TS were killed or made brain-dead by this. Magnus and the TS are a little upset by this.
A great company of the SW's arrive and start trying to destroy the library which the TS secured. The TS refuse to let the SW pass. Neither side fires on the other, instead the TS use their powers to try and stop the SW's in their tracks .
When the SW keep pushing, Magnus orders his biomancers to use their powers to cut the metaphorical legs out from under the SW. It is quite painful sounding, but its stated that no astartes has killed another yet.
Ahriman tells the biomancers to stop, and they do, but one succumbs to the flesh change. This makes the other TS start breaking apart being focused on not turning into gibblies, ans the SW recover.
Russ makes his dramatic entrance and kills the mutant (only one appears) with a big feth-off gun.
Before Russ or Magnus say something stupid, good ol Lorgar pops up and tries to calm them down. Russ wants recompense for his warriors suffering (though no deaths), and lorgar actually brings up the situation with the Lion.
Russ states that the flesh-change is an example of the TS 'unclean magiks'. Lorgar states that its just a matter of gene-seed instability.
Russ calls every one of the TS 'tainted, wielders of spellcraft and necromancy'. Lorgar tries the 'are your rune priests so different', and Russ starts off the whole Rune priest crap (in my humble opinion). Magnus calls Russ a fool, then Lorgar gives them both a lecture.
Ultimately, the TS bugger off with the Libraries contents, and the SW burn just about everything left on the planet. From there its straight to Ullanor and Nikea.

Huh, thats' a lot of words. Russ has a few good points, which is made for Prominent by the fact that Magnus' only sentence in the whole confrontation is to call Russ a fool, but at the same time we know that the flesh-change IS a gene-seed issue, that it does affect those warriors who haven't the slightest physic power, and that having a single case of the change since Magnus rejoined his sons is hardly something to make such a fuss about (There is also the Wulfen to consider here). There's also the small issue of the SW escalating the situation by refusing to follow a Primarchs orders and charging at the TS just to try and burn a library.

However, the TS are my 2nd favourite legion, and the SW sure as hell aren't my first, so I'll readily admit I'm biased in this matter. I think we can all agree that if Magnus had fought, from the beginning, with all his strength, then the SW should have suffered terrible casualties. The question is, if Magnus plays along with Tzeentch's game from the beginning, does Tzeentch still re-inflict the flesh change and so on? Does he subtly strengthen the SW? Who knows?

I don't mind walls of text, I like reading.
Not often I write walls of text though, writing on the mobile is just painful.
I like that the Wolves jump to conclusions, they're fallible and hypocrites, along with being recruited older than most chapters it makes their members more human than most other chapters on a mental level, in spite of being one of the least human chapters on a physical level.

If the TS book one of the rune priests says the wolfen are a thing before the Magnus, Russ fight

Manchu wrote:
That boils down to an argument that Russ is just a moron. I mean, you are saying that he mistook a disorganized clusterfeth for the best the 1kSons could possibly manage.

He pretty much comes across that way, yes. But mostly just had no respect for the Thousand Sons or Magnus at all despite them being on the stronger side of the 18 legions.

Mudrat wrote:
Before Russ or Magnus say something stupid, good ol Lorgar pops up and tries to calm them down. Russ wants recompense for his warriors suffering (though no deaths), and lorgar actually brings up the situation with the Lion.
Russ states that the flesh-change is an example of the TS 'unclean magiks'. Lorgar states that its just a matter of gene-seed instability.
Russ calls every one of the TS 'tainted, wielders of spellcraft and necromancy'. Lorgar tries the 'are your rune priests so different', and Russ starts off the whole Rune priest crap (in my humble opinion). Magnus calls Russ a fool, then Lorgar gives them both a lecture.

This is why Lorgar is best girl <3

Mudrat wrote:

Wall of text ahoy!

Ok, I'm a bit behind the most recent fluff with regards to Lion and Russ. About the whole Rune priests thing, in A Thousand Sons we actually see the incident firsthand. I've listed what I felt the key points are below:

Cool summary. There's one bit on the order of events that I read differently. It's not covered in the text but can be inferred from what Magnus says.

Some SW are sent to burn the Library- Magnus stops them (inferred, kills them). when Russ hears about this, that's when he lets out his Psychic Howl. Then...

The TS and the other psykers get hit with a pulse of psychic energy ...

Key point being Magnus hit first. Russ was never going to be calm after that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, something i didn't catch until the second reading. Lorgar is a traitor at this point. So in fact the only reason he is defusing the situation here it to set up the larger battle at Prospero.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Mudrat wrote:

Wall of text ahoy!

Ok, I'm a bit behind the most recent fluff with regards to Lion and Russ. About the whole Rune priests thing, in A Thousand Sons we actually see the incident firsthand. I've listed what I felt the key points are below:

Cool summary. There's one bit on the order of events that I read differently. It's not covered in the text but can be inferred from what Magnus says.

Some SW are sent to burn the Library- Magnus stops them (inferred, kills them). when Russ hears about this, that's when he lets out his Psychic Howl. Then...

The TS and the other psykers get hit with a pulse of psychic energy ...

Key point being Magnus hit first. Russ was never going to be calm after that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, something i didn't catch until the second reading. Lorgar is a traitor at this point. So in fact the only reason he is defusing the situation here it to set up the larger battle at Prospero.

not nesscarily, Lorgar's a little more complex a character then puurely black and white, he does seem to genuinely care for (in his own way) some of his brothers.it could well be that he genuinely didn't want them to come to blows.

there's also of course the fact that two legions coming to blows prematurely may have resulted in closer scrutiny of the legions

BrianDavion wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Mudrat wrote:

Wall of text ahoy!

Ok, I'm a bit behind the most recent fluff with regards to Lion and Russ. About the whole Rune priests thing, in A Thousand Sons we actually see the incident firsthand. I've listed what I felt the key points are below:

Cool summary. There's one bit on the order of events that I read differently. It's not covered in the text but can be inferred from what Magnus says.

Some SW are sent to burn the Library- Magnus stops them (inferred, kills them). when Russ hears about this, that's when he lets out his Psychic Howl. Then...

The TS and the other psykers get hit with a pulse of psychic energy ...

Key point being Magnus hit first. Russ was never going to be calm after that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, something i didn't catch until the second reading. Lorgar is a traitor at this point. So in fact the only reason he is defusing the situation here it to set up the larger battle at Prospero.

not nesscarily, Lorgar's a little more complex a character then puurely black and white, he does seem to genuinely care for (in his own way) some of his brothers.it could well be that he genuinely didn't want them to come to blows.

there's also of course the fact that two legions coming to blows prematurely may have resulted in closer scrutiny of the legions

Did Russ actually like any of his Brothers during the Great Crusade?

Cool summary. There's one bit on the order of events that I read differently. It's not covered in the text but can be inferred from what Magnus says.

Some SW are sent to burn the Library- Magnus stops them (inferred, kills them). when Russ hears about this, that's when he lets out his Psychic Howl. Then...

The TS and the other psykers get hit with a pulse of psychic energy ...

Key point being Magnus hit first. Russ was never going to be calm after that.

That would explain Russ going all off about how Fenrisian blood has been shed and he'll never forget it. From Ahrimans PoV it's stated that no SW died when the second group charged the TS, but its entirely like Magnus to murder a small pack of puppies before they pee on his new books. Just look what he does to his own legion later in the novel.

Edit: Dunno if Lorgar was turned yet or not. It was before Ullanor, if that helps anyone.

Manchu wrote:

 Glasdir wrote:
even if that meant their own demise

I don't believe the story has ever been framed in those terms. Russ was not there to commit suicide.

no it never has been, if I remember correctly it's something that is touched on in either wolf king or inferno not a thousand sons or prospero burns. As I said they exist to stop the biggest nastiest threats to the imperium, they do the jobs the other legions cannot stomach even if that means their own destruction, after all, all space wolves seek an epic death saga, in their eyes dying in battle is the most honourable way to go.