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I'm not looking to make changes to the list. Period. That being said your opinion/thoughts on the list are needed as follows.

- Which army of the imperium do you play? or would play vs this list.
- Would you defeat this list on pure brute strength? mission objectives? both?
- Can you win with your most standard list against this? Would you need to tweak your list in order to counter mine?
- What would you find most challenging to deal with in this list, what are you most concerned about?
- Which Imperium list build or units would be of major concern against this list? (i.e. War Convocation, Grav Centurions, etc)
- If you had to list the "Cons" in my list what would they be? (i.e. No Anti-Air, No Anti-Armor, Lack of Mobility, etc etc)

1850 Pts - Supplement: Champions of Fenris Roster - Space Wolves - Champions of Fenris

: Company of the Great Wolf Detachment (13#, 1119 pts)
1 Grand Master Voldus (HQ) [GK], 240 pts

1 Wolf Guard Terminators, 240 pts
1 Wolf Guard Terminator Leader (Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield)
4 Wolf Guard Terminator (Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield)

1 Wulfen, 244 pts
1 Wulfen Pack Leader (Stormfrag Auto-launcher)
2 Wulfen (Stormfrag Auto-launcher; Two Frost Claws)
2 Wulfen (Stormfrag Auto-launcher; Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield)

1 Drop Pod, 45 pts (Locator Beacon)

1 Roboute Guilliman [UM], 350 pts (Warlord)

Formation:
1 Wolf Guard Void Claws, 240 pts (Formation)
1 Wolf Guard Terminators
1 Wolf Guard Terminator Leader (Two Wolf Claws)
4 Wolf Guard Terminator (Two Wolf Claws)

Formation:
1 Wyrdstorm Brotherhood [SW], 490 pts
1 Rune Priest in Power Armour (HQ) [SW] (Runic Axe; Runic Armour; Plasma Pistol x1; Mastery 2)
1 Rune Priest in Terminator Armour (HQ) [SW] (Runic Sword; Storm Bolter; Mastery 2)
1 Rune Priest in Terminator Armour (HQ) [SW] (Runic Sword; Storm Bolter; Mastery 2)
1 Rune Priest in Terminator Armour (HQ) [SW] (Runic Axe; Storm Bolter; Mastery 2)
1 Helm of Durfast [SW]

Total Roster Cost: 1849

My Gameplan:

Deployment
- Guilliman Deploys
- Rune Priest in Power Armour deploys/held in reserve depending on powers [There to boost Guilliman's movement]
- Wulfen + Drop Pod in reserve. Arrive turn 1
- Voldus + Wolf Guard + Wyrdstorm Brotherhood deep strike reserve using Drop Pod beacon hopefully.
- Voidclaws deep strike turn 1 and guarantee reserves on turn 2.

I'm gonna be harsh about this since I play space wolves
Severe lack of mobility - This is your biggest weakness. If I'm reading this correctly your army does not have anything that moves more than 6', anything in transport or move 12' will simply move away from your combat threat, or failing that they will surround your wulfens with that cheap chaff and walk away. The opponent gets to pick the fight he wants, not you.

No alpha strike threat - With the exception of your rune priests, none of your units can output any guaranteed damage before taking casualties. There is no first turn charge potential, drop-pod shooting nor long range fire-power

Close combat wolf guard terminators are bad - No way around this, they are bad, too expensive for a bunch of T4 W1 dudes

I see what you're doing with the rune priest and terminator psychic deathstar, but they have very poor mobility, which makes them extremely vulnerable to sisters of silence and culexus assassins

You will have trouble against any optimized competitive armies: Eldar will kite you, Tau and Admec will drown you with mid range shooting, daemons will out-fight you with the exception of Gulliman, Marines will have too many units in transports for you to catch and kill off due to your low numbers

I run a Champion of Fenris army with 2 thunderwolf squads, 2 wulfen squads and a Culexus as my core, I am more than willing to sacrifice all my wulfens and assassin into your psychic deathstar and then run away from Gulliman taking objectives for the rest of the game.

Hi, I like the style of heavy armour and very durable units.
I don't play Space Wolves myself, and don't know much of their rules and formations but I have played against a few Space Wolf lists at my local store. I played against one yesterday where I won 7-4 with my Iron Hands in an 1850. But I'll try to write something constructive that can help you and you can use as good feedback.

1) Within the Imperium I play mainly Iron Hands. But I also do play sometimes Admech, as well as sometimes my Imperial Knights and some Imperial Agents stuff, mainly assassins.
Against this list I would just build a simple list that can pump out shots. I'd use my list I used yesterday against the Space Wolves. That list consisted of lots of shots, as well as Guilliman and the Iron Hand deathstar. The list would be able to shoot down your units before they'd be able to charge me, or at least destroy just enough that they're barely make any threat in combat. And my deathstar and Guilliman would tear them down in combat, and tank the hell out of them unless my RNG goes really bad. Against your Guilliman, it'd mainly would depend on the rolling of both of us. But I did loose Guilliman once to an Eldar Tree, so I do have capability in this army to kill him. Basically I had two formations and these units: 1 Chapter Master on a bike with powerfist, articifier armour, Gorgan's Chai., 2 10 man and 2 5 man tacticle squads, 3 of them having a plasma gun and one of them a melta gun. 1 5 man sniper squad (5 snipers). 1 devestator squad, 1 boltgun 2 heavy bolters and 2 missile launchers (I wouldn't normally equip them like that but that was all the heavy weaponry available to me yesterday). 1 3 man basic biuke squad. 1 Contemptor dreadnought that has the 6 shot assualt cannon. 1 5 man beefed up command squad on bikes that gangs up with the Chapter master. In that squad there is an apothacary and each other guy has: a powerfist, 1 one of them has the Emperor Standard to give +1 attack and fearless. So I end up with a 2+ Feel No Pain Chapter Master and 3+ Feel No pain Command Squad. I also have 1 basic librarian and Guilliman.

2) I would most likely be able to defeat this list with just the sheer amoutn of shots being pumped out and being able to tank the hell out of any squad with my deathstar and Guilliman. Objectiv wise, you'd probably be able to take hold first as you got deepstrike, but my Guilliman and deathstar would most likely be able to take over and I'd shoot the hell out of those who are controlling the objectives.

3) I think I'd be able to win with a standard Skitarii list. Just the sheer amount of shots. 4 10 man vanguard squads with plasma calivers is a lot of shots. Then in Cult Mechanicus I'd just take the servitors with grav guns. 6 shots per gun.

4) My biggest concern would be the wolfren, as they would be ignoring my Feel No Pain with the power hammers, since they're base strength 5. And x2 makes them strength 10, so ignoring my feel no pain at my deathstar. However those Rune Priests could show a large threat against me if you get the correct powers.

5) I think your biggest list concern would be anything that has a lot of grav. Lots and lots of grav, so centurions and Cult Mechanicus. Tau would be able to shoot you down, though if they fail to kill you you'd kill them the moment you get into multi-charge combat against them.

6) I think your biggest Con in this list, is the lack of speed. THe list I played against yesterday was able to charge me on the 1st turn (though I was lucky enough to see my opponent fail his charge, and he had first turn). I'm assuming your units can't charge after they deepstrike. I think one of the key units each Space Wolf list needs (unless you ain't going cheese and want to give your opponent a chance if they're new or don't have much money) is thunderwolf cavalary. They are one of the best units in the game. I would recommend amending your list to have thunder cavarly. Guilliman, as much as great he is in combat, he is best, in my opinion, to have an army around him. Thanks to his aura it benefits the nearby units. Plus, thunder cavalary in my opinion are better than guilliman in combat, and are in fact much faster than him.

I hope this helped. This is my first time writing a critical analysis/review of a list btw.

May the Emperor be with you, and may you roll those 6's.

I play Space Wolves and Deathwatch as IoM armies.
You've already listed the main reasons why I'd win with the Wolves.

My usual Deathwatch would have a harder time of it due to their lack of AP2 and both of us using a similar range of Deepstriking options, still, I think I'd have the RoF to have a 50/50 shot at them.

My 2 cents on your points:
1. I play Dark Angels. I often run either Ravenwing or a Lion's Blade, and I am putting the finishing touches on a Battle Company list.
2. I'm gonna be frank here, any of my competitive builds will out-shoot yours, with AP2 weapons, so will win on brute strength. The Battle Company has ObSec on everything except a couple of token Ravenwing auxiliary units so will win on objectives, but with my mobility even my Ravenwing will be able to grab objectives better.
3. Most of my DA builds feature Lascannons, Grav, and Plasma for days. Your terminators would not last long unless you had a massive amount of psychic buffs in place, which admittedly you could do. I would not need to tweak or tailor my lists at all to win.
4. Guilliman will be a tough cookie, but I can just stay away from him mostly. I could also put some speed bump units in front of him to keep him from killing stuff I need to keep alive. I could probably drop him in a couple of turns, but it would be tough to do that and kill your other stuff.
5. Anything mobile or with solid board presence would give this list trouble. As others have said, your units are SLOW. Bike lists can just kite them with no problem.
6. As said already, lack of mobility. I would also add the fact that your list only has 22 models, so every casualty will hurt. A lot.

I like the idea of this list, but the sad fact of the matter is that Terminators are just not good right now. Same reason my Deathwing are doing shelf duty for the foreseeable future. The list might be fun in casual play, but don't expect to win tournaments with it. Not trying to be harsh, but them's the facts.

I think your list would struggle with lack of mobility and a low model count. Many of them can go down quite easily with average shooting and in close combat only wulfen and guilliman are serious threats which means wulfen would be obliterated the turn they come in as they would suffer the entire opponent's firepower, and it's not difficult to avoid guilliman, especially if you run a low count models list.

Shooting phase completely absent but typically SW don't rely on killing things at distance. I usually never bother with shooty units too.

The lack of anti-air is not a problem either, any SW list doesn't have any

 Blackie wrote:
I think your list would struggle with lack of mobility and a low model count. Many of them can go down quite easily with average shooting and in close combat only wulfen and guilliman are serious threats which means wulfen would be obliterated the turn they come in as they would suffer the entire opponent's firepower, and it's not difficult to avoid guilliman, especially if you run a low count models list.

Shooting phase completely absent but typically SW don't rely on killing things at distance. I usually never bother with shooty units too.

The lack of anti-air is not a problem either, any SW list doesn't have any

Blackie is right - Anti-air be damned. Kill everything on the ground then look up.
People don't field enough flying vehicles to be threatening and anti-air rarely hurts FMC, both FMCs and flying vehicles have to land to claim objectives.

This is awesome thank you all for responding!!! Before I start replying individually here is a tidbit I probably should've mentioned in my game plan.

My wyrmstorm brotherhood always rolls for veil of time in Librarius discipline as the very first power I want. Given that i'm tossing so many dice at it I have been able to get it in almost every game where I've built a similar deathstar, to date I have never lost a game where I got my hands on veil of time. Every other power after that is just icing on the cake 2+/3++ Re-rolls are what I look for and it is ridiculously hard to kill anything once I get that going. I've soaked up an entire's army worth of shooting (including rapid fire) and taken a single wound.

After veil of time. I roll for mobility powers which there are plenty out there in the AD supplement. Once decent mobility has been achieved I try and roll for good ol reliable invisibility. In this particular deathstar my goal however is to have Voldus roll for Sanctuary and give me a 2++ rerollable his chances are pretty good at landing it.

No guarantees on what I will get on any given day but I have enough rolls to ensure a very high probability of getting the powers I actually want. I've played this sort of deathstar at least a dozen times pretty reliable. Also many said there's no ranged shooting, this is wrong. There's a good reason I take the helm of durfast, it grants ignores cover to my attacks. Wyrmstorm brotherhood by default has a very very very nasty shooting power that practically guarantees that I completely murder whatever i shoot it at it Seriously Living Storm WILL MURDER just about anything. In my army this is usually 5D6 (yes 2D6 base + D6 for every other rune piriest on the battlefield at the time of casting) Strength 7 shots (no AP) with the SHOCK rule. On average I am rolling 20 S7 attacks that land extra attacks on 6s it's like shooting 5 necron annihilation barges...with a 24" in range.

Never have I ever had a game where this sort of deathstar didn't control the midfield. Anything that doesnt want to die from assault or shooting has to stay more than 24" away.

I think that being said it answers some of the concerns that were brought up universally regarding the durability and lack of shooting. The psychic shooting is there my only concerns is boosting durability and mobility.

Continuity wrote:I'm gonna be harsh about this since I play space wolves
Severe lack of mobility - This is your biggest weakness. If I'm reading this correctly your army does not have anything that moves more than 6', anything in transport or move 12' will simply move away from your combat threat, or failing that they will surround your wulfens with that cheap chaff and walk away. The opponent gets to pick the fight he wants, not you.

No alpha strike threat - With the exception of your rune priests, none of your units can output any guaranteed damage before taking casualties. There is no first turn charge potential, drop-pod shooting nor long range fire-power

Close combat wolf guard terminators are bad - No way around this, they are bad, too expensive for a bunch of T4 W1 dudes

I see what you're doing with the rune priest and terminator psychic deathstar, but they have very poor mobility, which makes them extremely vulnerable to sisters of silence and culexus assassins

You will have trouble against any optimized competitive armies: Eldar will kite you, Tau and Admec will drown you with mid range shooting, daemons will out-fight you with the exception of Gulliman, Marines will have too many units in transports for you to catch and kill off due to your low numbers

I run a Champion of Fenris army with 2 thunderwolf squads, 2 wulfen squads and a Culexus as my core, I am more than willing to sacrifice all my wulfens and assassin into your psychic deathstar and then run away from Gulliman taking objectives for the rest of the game.

Wow great points here for starters I think you hit it right on head. A culexus or sisters of silence or generally anything that can shut down my psychic might is a major problem. My original intend was to keep guilliman close to my deathstar to counter these sort of hindrances and benefit from his warlord trait. Do you feel that's adequate enough or will the primarch body guard not be enough in your opinion?

Culexus can only shut me down if it comes within 12" which is awfully close for something that's very fragile in close combat. With guilliman also staying within 12" (so i can reap his benefits) I assumed that'd be enough of a deterrent.

Lastly please keep discussion centered on imperium armies. I'm not interested in what eldar, tau or whatever isn't imperium would do. I'll be playing against imperial armies thus why the thread solely focused on advice geared towards it. I found your response to be good I hope you will follow up regarding the culexus because that does indeed concern me as a weak point. I have no experience facing sisters of silence maybe you could bring me up to speed on them

ZergSmasher wrote:My 2 cents on your points:
1. I play Dark Angels. I often run either Ravenwing or a Lion's Blade, and I am putting the finishing touches on a Battle Company list.
2. I'm gonna be frank here, any of my competitive builds will out-shoot yours, with AP2 weapons, so will win on brute strength. The Battle Company has ObSec on everything except a couple of token Ravenwing auxiliary units so will win on objectives, but with my mobility even my Ravenwing will be able to grab objectives better.
3. Most of my DA builds feature Lascannons, Grav, and Plasma for days. Your terminators would not last long unless you had a massive amount of psychic buffs in place, which admittedly you could do. I would not need to tweak or tailor my lists at all to win.
4. Guilliman will be a tough cookie, but I can just stay away from him mostly. I could also put some speed bump units in front of him to keep him from killing stuff I need to keep alive. I could probably drop him in a couple of turns, but it would be tough to do that and kill your other stuff.
5. Anything mobile or with solid board presence would give this list trouble. As others have said, your units are SLOW. Bike lists can just kite them with no problem.
6. As said already, lack of mobility. I would also add the fact that your list only has 22 models, so every casualty will hurt. A lot.

I like the idea of this list, but the sad fact of the matter is that Terminators are just not good right now. Same reason my Deathwing are doing shelf duty for the foreseeable future. The list might be fun in casual play, but don't expect to win tournaments with it. Not trying to be harsh, but them's the facts.

I like how you broke it down. However i hope my initial response helps clarify regarding the perceived weakness to grav/plasma and what have you. At least not the death star lol the deathstar doesn't care for any of those weapons once veil of time is in play. I've soaked up an entire armies worth of grav shooting and only took 1 wound, the rerolls are powerful. Anything without a re-roll however would be in trouble admittedly

You made a big point of the lack of mobility I wholeheartedly agree with you on that weakness. To compensate for it I do intend to roll for mobility as soon as I grab veil of time from libarius. I've done it succesfully on a few other occassions (when i didnt have to waste too many rolls trying to land veil of time), which psychic disciple would you recommend for the mobility issue? Normally i'd roll on Fulmination for that since there's 2 powers that aid movement, would you recommend a more effective discipline in this regard?

Or maybe a different tactic altogether that works with this list (helpful in the case that i don't get the powers needed). Usually Living Storm utterly destroys bike units that i can get in range of so the opponent was forced to run away while I was forced to basically stand in the midfield not really able to catch up to his running. This was my experience against white scars and TWC (yes living storm will easily crush thunderwolf cavalry). It's something Ive longed tried to compensate for but beyond fulmination i couldn't come up with anything better.

Dakka Wolf wrote:I play Space Wolves and Deathwatch as IoM armies.
You've already listed the main reasons why I'd win with the Wolves.

My usual Deathwatch would have a harder time of it due to their lack of AP2 and both of us using a similar range of Deepstriking options, still, I think I'd have the RoF to have a 50/50 shot at them.

Not sure about this response you didn't really say much of anything bro.

MageRanger wrote:Hi, I like the style of heavy armour and very durable units.
I don't play Space Wolves myself, and don't know much of their rules and formations but I have played against a few Space Wolf lists at my local store. I played against one yesterday where I won 7-4 with my Iron Hands in an 1850. But I'll try to write something constructive that can help you and you can use as good feedback.

1) Within the Imperium I play mainly Iron Hands. But I also do play sometimes Admech, as well as sometimes my Imperial Knights and some Imperial Agents stuff, mainly assassins.
Against this list I would just build a simple list that can pump out shots. I'd use my list I used yesterday against the Space Wolves. That list consisted of lots of shots, as well as Guilliman and the Iron Hand deathstar. The list would be able to shoot down your units before they'd be able to charge me, or at least destroy just enough that they're barely make any threat in combat. And my deathstar and Guilliman would tear them down in combat, and tank the hell out of them unless my RNG goes really bad. Against your Guilliman, it'd mainly would depend on the rolling of both of us. But I did loose Guilliman once to an Eldar Tree, so I do have capability in this army to kill him. Basically I had two formations and these units: 1 Chapter Master on a bike with powerfist, articifier armour, Gorgan's Chai., 2 10 man and 2 5 man tacticle squads, 3 of them having a plasma gun and one of them a melta gun. 1 5 man sniper squad (5 snipers). 1 devestator squad, 1 boltgun 2 heavy bolters and 2 missile launchers (I wouldn't normally equip them like that but that was all the heavy weaponry available to me yesterday). 1 3 man basic biuke squad. 1 Contemptor dreadnought that has the 6 shot assualt cannon. 1 5 man beefed up command squad on bikes that gangs up with the Chapter master. In that squad there is an apothacary and each other guy has: a powerfist, 1 one of them has the Emperor Standard to give +1 attack and fearless. So I end up with a 2+ Feel No Pain Chapter Master and 3+ Feel No pain Command Squad. I also have 1 basic librarian and Guilliman.

2) I would most likely be able to defeat this list with just the sheer amoutn of shots being pumped out and being able to tank the hell out of any squad with my deathstar and Guilliman. Objectiv wise, you'd probably be able to take hold first as you got deepstrike, but my Guilliman and deathstar would most likely be able to take over and I'd shoot the hell out of those who are controlling the objectives.

3) I think I'd be able to win with a standard Skitarii list. Just the sheer amount of shots. 4 10 man vanguard squads with plasma calivers is a lot of shots. Then in Cult Mechanicus I'd just take the servitors with grav guns. 6 shots per gun.

4) My biggest concern would be the wolfren, as they would be ignoring my Feel No Pain with the power hammers, since they're base strength 5. And x2 makes them strength 10, so ignoring my feel no pain at my deathstar. However those Rune Priests could show a large threat against me if you get the correct powers.

5) I think your biggest list concern would be anything that has a lot of grav. Lots and lots of grav, so centurions and Cult Mechanicus. Tau would be able to shoot you down, though if they fail to kill you you'd kill them the moment you get into multi-charge combat against them.

6) I think your biggest Con in this list, is the lack of speed. THe list I played against yesterday was able to charge me on the 1st turn (though I was lucky enough to see my opponent fail his charge, and he had first turn). I'm assuming your units can't charge after they deepstrike. I think one of the key units each Space Wolf list needs (unless you ain't going cheese and want to give your opponent a chance if they're new or don't have much money) is thunderwolf cavalary. They are one of the best units in the game. I would recommend amending your list to have thunder cavarly. Guilliman, as much as great he is in combat, he is best, in my opinion, to have an army around him. Thanks to his aura it benefits the nearby units. Plus, thunder cavalary in my opinion are better than guilliman in combat, and are in fact much faster than him.

I hope this helped. This is my first time writing a critical analysis/review of a list btw.

May the Emperor be with you, and may you roll those 6's.

This was my favorite response. You gave a pretty lengthy and pleasant to read break down. However the thing that really got me interested is that you play Iron Hands. What I mostly play against 85% of the time are Iron Hands! So this immediately sparked my interest as I see these guys more frequently than anything else (lately i've been seeing a lot of ultramarines thanks to Guilliman's bandwagon) but still Iron Hands are my preferred enemy you could say.

One thing I want to point out from the gate, the deathstar you describe as having in your list is NASTY NASTY and super tough. My opponents bring that same death star in almost EVERY game of Iron Hands. The 2+/3++ with a 2+ FNP captain is what inspired me to build my own NASTIER deathstar so that I could wreck captain smashface and his stupid feel no pain.

With that said in every single game played my psychic deathstar completely murders the Iron Hands deathstar (like i said, i built it with the purpose of kiling Iron Hands and ignoring the FNP). I don't say that to dismiss the power of your deathstar because it is super tough, just to point out that if we go deathstar vs deathstar mine has a proven record of making the iron hands run for the hills on their pretty bikes. Is you read what I wrote in my initial response you'll understand why. My 2+/3++ rerollable saves are just as good if not better (can't be ignored by S10 and other stuff) and I have so many psykers that in assault i can activate force weapons and kill the entire command squad in 1 round of combat leaving only the chapter master to slowly lose the benefits of the gorgon chain while doing 0 damage to me.

I've had my deathstars take an entire iron hands army worth of shooting and only take a single wound. Even after being shot with tons and tons of grav a 3++ with rerolls is ridiculously hard to punch through. It's pretty much the same thing your command squad does with it's 3+ fnp roll.

All that said you mentioned imperial knights. Those things are a problem with their stomps and high mobility. I do usually face them at range i can kill a knight per turn with living storm, but in combat it's a wholenother story specially when they stomp i don't think i have anything to answer a 6 on the stomp chart.

I've never used this sort of deathstar vs guilliman but I expect that I'll get the honor pretty soon I honestly don't know what to expect i've faced him in 4 games so far and he is an absolute beast in CC. He totally wreck my Knight Gallant with ridiculous ease so i've learned to not bring a knight anywhere near Guilliman after that lol. I dont think he can punch his way through my 3++ rerolls normally but if he starts landing those 6s to hit id be in a huge amount of trouble. Btw i noticed in your response that you assume your guilliman will be on the field tearing it up and being invincible, yet you completely dismiss the fact that i'm using the exact same guy lol that was a bit puzzling. Would be fun to have a primarch vs primarch battle though i think it would entirely be up to who can roll 6 to hit and then 6 to wound.

Your ideas about admech and skitarii sound interesting please elaborate more. I think with those and the knight you brought up some fair points. The iron hands shooting or deathstar winning...i can only speak from my own experience fighting them for the past 2 years, and i can comfortably say that sort of list I have defeated easily time and time again with this type of psychic deathstar reliying on veil of time. On the flip side when NOT fielding some form of hard counter against that Iron Hands shenanigans, I have been the recipient of many a spanking lol the first couple games i faced it and wasnt prepared for it, it drove me crazy how that was even legal in the rules. It really IS super strong.

I also gave you the nicest Poll response.
Most of what I wrote about my Space Wolves against yours could be summed up in your original post so was kind of redundant so I cut it back, I'll re-write it, hopefully you find something useful.
I play Ironwolves and a Champions of Fenris + Formations combo.

Ironwolves.
In 1850 I run
Two units of decked out Wulfen units in a Murderpack
Two Herald units of Bikes and Thunderwolves Rune Priests with Sanctic Daemonology.
Three Rune Priests in Wyrdstorm Brotherhood two with jump packs one without, one of jumpers with Helm of Durfast
Wolf Guard Battle Leader
Two Bloodclaw units in fully decked Rhinos
Four missile/melta Landspeeders
Longfang, Longfang Ancient with Flamer, Wolfguard with Combi-flamer in a Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Luck of sieze, psychic disciplines and curse rolls aside I'd be the one with faster units, more strong units, more firepower and longer ranged firepower. Every charge you consider on something that can be locked in combat would have to be weighed against the possibility of Counter Charge putting more units than you can handle into the fray. I'd pepper your Space Wolves out of existance from outside your charge ranges with the Vehicles then either put resources into removing Guiliman or just leave him in the dust to collect objectives.

Champs at 1850
Champs of Charge at 1850
HQ
- Rune Priest
ELITES
- Dreadnought in Lucius Pod
- Dreadnought in Lucius Pod
FAST ATTACK
- TWC

Formation Detachment
Wulfen Murderpack
Deathpack
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with Armour of Russ
TWC
Grey Hunters in Drop Pods
Heralds of the Great Wolf

Higher mobility and overpowering things you can't reach to re-enforce quickly is how I'd get ahead.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I also gave you the nicest Poll response.
Most of what I wrote about my Space Wolves against yours could be summed up in your original post so was kind of redundant so I cut it back, I'll re-write it, hopefully you find something useful.
I play Ironwolves and a Champions of Fenris + Formations combo.

Ironwolves.
In 1850 I run
Two units of decked out Wulfen units in a Murderpack
Two Herald units of Bikes and Thunderwolves Rune Priests with Sanctic Daemonology.
Three Rune Priests in Wyrdstorm Brotherhood two with jump packs one without, one of jumpers with Helm of Durfast
Wolf Guard Battle Leader
Two Bloodclaw units in fully decked Rhinos
Four missile/melta Landspeeders
Longfang, Longfang Ancient with Flamer, Wolfguard with Combi-flamer in a Drop Pod with Deathwind Launcher

Luck of sieze, psychic disciplines and curse rolls aside I'd be the one with faster units, more strong units, more firepower and longer ranged firepower. Every charge you consider on something that can be locked in combat would have to be weighed against the possibility of Counter Charge putting more units than you can handle into the fray. I'd pepper your Space Wolves out of existance from outside your charge ranges with the Vehicles then either put resources into removing Guiliman or just leave him in the dust to collect objectives.

Champs at 1850
Champs of Charge at 1850
HQ
- Rune Priest
ELITES
- Dreadnought in Lucius Pod
- Dreadnought in Lucius Pod
FAST ATTACK
- TWC

Formation Detachment
Wulfen Murderpack
Deathpack
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with Armour of Russ
TWC
Grey Hunters in Drop Pods
Heralds of the Great Wolf

Higher mobility and overpowering things you can't reach to re-enforce quickly is how I'd get ahead.

I'm a bit confused the initial list you mentioned sounded interesting with all the stuff I could see how you could take advantage of the longer range and mobility there aswell as getting enough psychic dice to counter my superior psychic phase. I can understand how you'd take advantage of better mobility, longer range, and psychic defense all things that have been thus far pointed out as possible weaknesses and you'd be right i need to plan for that eventuality somehow.

But then the list you actually wrote down with the champions detachment, murderpack and deathpack is something that I'm fairly certain that i would do well against (i've played against something similar) i wouldnt even need to deep strike them in i could just walk up the field and kill all that stuff with living storm. I don't see the psychic defense from the initial description. Have you ever had anyone shoot your TWC and put 20+ wounds on them in 1 round of shooting? They only have a 3+ with no psychic defense in all games i've played against them they die quickly to either poison or massed S7 shooting. They are great against small amounts of fire from low AP weapons like plasmaguns/grav/lascannons.

Anyway the point is not to say 'oh i would beat you or ur list sucks against mine' that isn't constructive and doesn't really help. I want to know what are the weak points and how i could potentially overcome them using what I actually have. How would you recommend I do so against the first list (the one with wyrdstorm brotherhood on bikes) assuming that I would have a 2+/3++ rerollable save on this unit and would be firing living storm every psychic phase. You have the tools to counter it seems or at the very least have overwhelming advantage on objectives if you can't kill my psychic deathstar. So what do you think my target priority should be or any other tactics to plug the holes maybe?

 Akaiyou wrote:


I'm a bit confused the initial list you mentioned sounded interesting with all the stuff I could see how you could take advantage of the longer range and mobility there aswell as getting enough psychic dice to counter my superior psychic phase. I can understand how you'd take advantage of better mobility, longer range, and psychic defense all things that have been thus far pointed out as possible weaknesses and you'd be right i need to plan for that eventuality somehow.

But then the list you actually wrote down with the champions detachment, murderpack and deathpack is something that I'm fairly certain that i would do well against (i've played against something similar) i wouldnt even need to deep strike them in i could just walk up the field and kill all that stuff with living storm. I don't see the psychic defense from the initial description. Have you ever had anyone shoot your TWC and put 20+ wounds on them in 1 round of shooting? They only have a 3+ with no psychic defense in all games i've played against them they die quickly to either poison or massed S7 shooting. They are great against small amounts of fire from low AP weapons like plasmaguns/grav/lascannons.

Anyway the point is not to say 'oh i would beat you or ur list sucks against mine' that isn't constructive and doesn't really help. I want to know what are the weak points and how i could potentially overcome them using what I actually have. How would you recommend I do so against the first list (the one with wyrdstorm brotherhood on bikes) assuming that I would have a 2+/3++ rerollable save on this unit and would be firing living storm every psychic phase. You have the tools to counter it seems or at the very least have overwhelming advantage on objectives if you can't kill my psychic deathstar. So what do you think my target priority should be or any other tactics to plug the holes maybe?

Actually I've had to deal with massed fire plenty of times, I played for a solid year before my Wolves could make melee in the first turn, that's why I use Drop Podded templates and blasts so excessively, more often than not I got first blood shooting then my opponent got first blood melee, if that isn't crazy talk for a Space Wolves player I'd be interested to hear what is. TWC with Storm Shields sit at an oddball place when it comes to massed fire, they can buck the odds and shrug off an entire round of shooting or they can die to six shots - I lost a unit to a pair of Heavy Bolters from two Razorbacks, every shot hit and wounded then I failed all my saves - that hurt.

In the case of the second list Murderfang and the Flame Dread are to flame infantry to open paths for the melee units to charge through or just straight up prevent the Infantry from firing. You don't have blobs of infantry that I'd bother putting a flame template over but if they're blobbed together in a Deathstar, I think I'd have a good chance of relieving you of more than one Priest, especially if I get first turn, in either case I'd be more than happy to sacrifice nearly six hundred points to keep your deathstar in your deployment zone for a few extra turns while I spread to grab objectives.

My best strategy is being flexible, it's one of the reasons my lists are usually built as a spine with a few hundred points in flux, constantly trying to catch that sweet spot where I have at the very least a fifty fifty shot at any other list.

If you're hellbent on using that list I'd recommend taking a good look at what you have by way of utility - what you can break down to by way of ministars and remain fast moving and powerful. My plan is going to be to force you to stay in your deployment zone hunting my stuff while I collect objectives. The mission I think you'd destroy me in is the Relic, even if I did nab it and force you through the melee grind the six inch rule would let you catch me within a two or three turns and I'd be damned if I could get it off you if you got it first.

Interesting, I enjoyed this response a lot more very detailed strategically and i can understand your play better and see how it could deal a mortal wound to my list indeed. I'm grateful, i didnt even consider the possibility of the opponent tarpitting me at my deployment zone that's a new one. I can see it happening with alpha strike oriented lists specially if they go first. In that case I have to try to null deploy turn 1 or just leave guilliman on the field and deep strike myself into the opponent's deployment zone.

After getting my defensive boost powers. One of the reasons I added voldus aside from the fact that he has a great chance at getting Sanctuary from santic is that he also has a great chance at getting gate of infinity. I feel like Voldus is the missing link to my mobility issue with this deathstar that I enjoy so much. Once I try the list out i'll post here to let you guys know how it all fared.

I will certainly take into account all the collected knowledge and tactical holes you all have presented and try to work with what I got to pull a win. I'm pretty concerned about anti-psyker units the most but being tarpitted is also possible and would cost me dearly. Deployment options will be a big part of any game i play with this list

Good luck to you!