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2017/04/01 01:28:51
Subject: Lets Talk About Canoptek Harvest and Tomb Blades
Alright, after having played numerous games of 7th with the canoptek harvest formation, I am not sold its as good as everyone makes it out to be, for one glaring reason: anyone who knows what it does will usually attempt to either wipe the wraiths before they get reanimation, or they will just decimate the spider turn 1. Obviously you can keep them in reserve or hide them in cover but often that is not good enough considering the spider's lack of reanimation. If you go first then it certainly is worth it, but otherwise I don't think it is some sort of magical win condition.
Similarly, I think tomb blades are overrated. I just do not see lists with 2+ units of tomb blades getting the job done against armies that have far superior bike units. With a good deal of warriors and playing smartly you can exert plenty of board control (especially when playing ITC/NOVA missions where you get to choose how you score). I will take one unit in my decurion, but its definitely not meant to be the star, they work much better as a supporting unit or killing light infantry in droves.
Those are my thoughts on Necrons in 7th so far, feel free to ask any questions.
2017/04/01 04:49:00
Subject: Lets Talk About Canoptek Harvest and Tomb Blades
For my many, many many fights against both Canoptek Harvest and Tomb blades, I will say you are correct, they are not auto wins. They are however, the most cost efficient units in the game.
The harvest, if it does get its RP off, can literally soak two whole turns of an entire army without losing a model. Out in the open. While charging blindly towards a unit. A 120pt unit. Outside of special deathstars who spend 500-700 points to try and do the same task, that is unparalleled.
Tomb blades, by comparison to the Canopetk harvest are not nearly as good, but still fantastic. Stock, they are nothing to write home about. A slightly more resilant and fast jetbike. However, for 2 and 3 point upgrades per model, you get a 3+ armor save, and a weapon which ignores cover saves. Its a weapon which will kill anything less than a space marine with ease. Since its a jetbike, it can unleash a powerful volley and then flee out of line of sight. Its resilant, fast, hard hitting and ignores cover. Plus it can pull eldar trickery. Two squads of four or five can wipe out nearly any medium to light infantry squad with impunity. That is why they are considered so good.
But as you said, if you are fighting an opponent who knows the formation tricks, and/or built a list around it, you'll simply have to try new tactics. These two units alone are not auto win, but they will ruin an opponent who is not familaiar or heavily hinder someone who didn't bring a counter specifically with them in mind.
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2017/04/01 05:12:13
Subject: Re:Lets Talk About Canoptek Harvest and Tomb Blades
Something I have said a thousand times to people I play against and people I have taught how to play.......games can be won or lost in the deployment phase, and it seems like that may be just what your talking about.
The trick to the canaptic harvest is the fear they cause tends to be worth more than what they actualy do. The speed that they move at makes them a turn 1 priority target and thus you must deploy understanding that a smart player will focus on them right away. Against marines and armies that can't spam s6 like eldar, place the scarab swarms closer than the wraith to draw the fire, this is assuming that you can't hide behind Los blocking cover of course. The opponent will have to choose between the two units and will often shoot the closer one as it is a more immediate threat. Scarab are cheap and replaceable due to the spider.
Against players like Eldar that can bring lots of s6+ weapons, place the wraiths in front with the understanding that they are just there to tank shots with thier 3++ and will only buy a turn of cover for the scarab swarm to beeline for the shooty unit to lock it up in combat. Not the best scenario, but if the wraiths tank enough and survive then you can bumrush with good results. As before, your best bet is to put terrain between you and the shooty unit and enjoy your ability to ignore it during the turn you decide to burst through like the kool-aid man.
As for tombblades? T5 4+ armor, 4+ jink, 4+ reanimation shooting a s6 blast that ignores cover? I dare say that the only bike squad that is better is the Eldar bikes because of the extra range they get.......... they are hands down one of the best units necrons get. Need to jump up the table to claim an objective? How does 36 inches of movement on a hard to kill unit sound. Demon prince is rocking a 2+ rerollable jink? Feel free to wound him on 3s and ignore that nonsense. Dark angels player bringing his 3+ cover lands peepers? Jinking bikes? Dark eldar vehicles planted deep in cover? S6 ignoring cover tends to solve all these problems....as well as guardsmen that have gone to ground on an objective.....tombblades are fast in an army that struggles to keep up with most xenos, and terrifying to armies that rely on cover to protect their troops or light vehicles.
Just remember that deployment is about 40% of your main strategy and you should capitalize on the speed of these units.......
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/01 05:15:10
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2017/04/01 05:16:19
Subject: Re:Lets Talk About Canoptek Harvest and Tomb Blades
Even without the spider, wraiths are still one of the most points-efficient assault units in the game. The spider will draw alot of fire to be sure, but that's shooting that's not going into your wraiths. Other than the standard "hide behind LOS-blocking terrain", the best advice is to take more than one canoptek harvest. Shooting down TWO spiders in a single turn will be a little tougher. When you do make it to combat, multi-assault if you can to tie up more units.
Any buffed unit, including most deathstars rely on going first. You have a 50% chance of that happening, so it's not something that should be regarded as a gimmick by any means.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2017/04/01 07:06:00
Subject: Lets Talk About Canoptek Harvest and Tomb Blades
One variant I thought about using for NOVA missions. Decent unit counts, fast army (necron standard) with a very durable deathstar that can gate twice.
The harvest is certainly the best option necrons have. Tomb blades are nice too, but those nasty wraiths with protocols are broken and several armies don't have tons of effective shooting which means the spider is not that easy to kill.
2017/04/01 09:14:23
Subject: Lets Talk About Canoptek Harvest and Tomb Blades
Tomb spyder isn't very large model so it's easy to hide behind terrain. As for wraiths, yeah single unit can probably die to whole army shooting it, but run two harvests instead and it's going to give trouble to anyone. Heck, run three if you want to have no friends.
-Heresy grows from idleness-
2017/04/01 12:05:17
Subject: Lets Talk About Canoptek Harvest and Tomb Blades
Fueli wrote: Tomb spyder isn't very large model so it's easy to hide behind terrain. As for wraiths, yeah single unit can probably die to whole army shooting it, but run two harvests instead and it's going to give trouble to anyone. Heck, run three if you want to have no friends.
Plus Tomb Spyders are stupidly cheap. 50 points! Most monstrous creatures only have a tiny increase in survivability/damage output and are typically 2x as expensive (minimum) And that's BEFORE it starts up with the reanimation protocols/ other buffs (on the rare occasion they're used)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/01 12:30:49
2017/04/01 14:44:17
Subject: Lets Talk About Canoptek Harvest and Tomb Blades
The Canoptek Harvest only flaw is if my opponent knows what it does. I have played loads of games where my opponents is more focused on destroying my warriors, Tomb Blades or Wraiths rather then my Sypder meaning I always got my RP and made a free scarab every turn.
I have only ever had 1 game where my Sypder was destroyed turn 1 (I was able to go 1st so got RP off) and that was only because my opponent knew what the formation was able to do.
Against an opponent who is oblivious to the Necrons fluff, the C.Harvest is a very strong formation. However, if my opponent knows what the C.Harvest does and how important the Sypder is then its flaws starts to show once your Sypder is gone so is your RP/Fleet/Shred ability.
Tomb Blades are BEAST imo. Fair enough they aren't the best Jetbike unit nor can they control the board but they are good at 3 things. Getting objectives, destroying troops units or units with missing models and for soaking up hits.
In an army that moves pretty slow, the Tomb Blades are essential at getting objects on my opponents side of the field. Mover 12' and then possibly another 12" if you dont shoot during the shooting phase is clutch. Thats 24" which most other cron units cant do. They are also get at line breaker and if you have 3 units of them (I reccomemnd this) you can use all 3 to get line breaker which can give 1-3 points depending on the cards you draw.
If I was to run a unit with 3-4 TBs I would put Gauss on 3 of them and a Particle Beamer on 1. Particle Beamer is a strength 6 blast weapon that is twin-linked (due to the TB) and is usually the 1st weapon I shoot to cause as much damage as possible. I then use the Gauss to destroy anything that survived. Always run Shiled vanes and Nebulscopes. 3+ Save, 4+ RP (if in a decurion) and ignoring cover Jetbikes wreck havoc.
If you field 3 units of 3-4 Tbs that 9-12 models with 3+ Save, 4+ RP (if in a decurion) and ignoring cover they will soak up wounds and wreck havoc. Your opponents will have to deal with their speed which will make them a priority target but because you have 3 units with the above stats you should be able to annoy your opponent with them for a few turns while other units are doing damage on the table and gettings point every turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/01 15:24:07
Fueli wrote: Tomb spyder isn't very large model so it's easy to hide behind terrain. As for wraiths, yeah single unit can probably die to whole army shooting it, but run two harvests instead and it's going to give trouble to anyone. Heck, run three if you want to have no friends.
Plus Tomb Spyders are stupidly cheap.
50 points!
Most monstrous creatures only have a tiny increase in survivability/damage output and are typically 2x as expensive (minimum)
And that's BEFORE it starts up with the reanimation protocols/ other buffs (on the rare occasion they're used)
Yeah, but that's not really relevant information here, as you can only have one in Canoptek Harvest anyways. I've never seen anyone take one in a CaD for example.
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