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So, with 8th edition on its way with potentially big gameplay shakeups and the Gathering Storm likely leading up to... well, likely nothing (which, normally, I wouldn't mind in the 40k setting, but GW's writers don't seem to understand that they can keep the universe interesting without everything being a galaxy shattering event), really, I've started to think about possible ways to have a big shift that GW has been implying but not actually living up to.

To preface things, I'm going to point out that I'll be explaining things in a somewhat stunted, manner, since my points come not just from a fluff perspective, but also from that of a gameplay and marketing one. I'll also add (because it seems to be suggested) that I am NOT a pissed off Chaos player with penis envy for the Imperium. I play exclusively imperial factions, and am interested in them almost exclusively.

And I've come pretty adamantly to one point: The Emperor has to die, and Terra must fall. I'll point out that this is going to come across as pretty end-times-ish, and that's because it is. However I think something along such an outline could do a lot to reinvigorate the 40k fluff in great ways if pulled off correctly.

And not starchild die, or any other million resurrection theories die, but die for real. Moreover, so does Guilliman, as well as any other loyalist primarch that decides to make an appearance in the meantime. Give Chaos a big W, and let the Empire of Mankind fall hard.

First off, Guilliman dies doing something heroic, and Chaos could even gain another daemon primarch or three. This raises the stakes for the conflict to come, and gives Chaos credibility as a threat for the first time in a very long while.

The forces of Chaos make their way to Earth, and mount the massive offensive that's been built up for decades. Empire heroes from across the galaxy respond in kind and fight valiantly, but many are lost and in the end. Terra itself is destroyed, and the Emperor along with it. With the Terra gone and the Astronomican lost, mankind is lost and scattered across the galaxy.
Fast forward a couple centuries, and a new age of strife has begun. Small pockets of humanity have managed to reform their own isolated empires across the galaxy, carving back against the now much more omnipresent Chaotic forces. Some would be founded upon ideals fitting with the Empire of old, while others would be considerably more distinct. For example, the Ultramarines would likely have formed a more progressive society in line with Guilliman's vision, while others could be held under very strictly under the conservative and fanatical dogmatic leash of the Ecclesiarchy attempting to salvage its old systems (which itself might splinter off into its own philosophical orders). These two major divides in philosophy would be the two most important, essentially creating a schism between the scattered human empires that divides their allegiances (just imagine the implications for the Inquisition and its agents!).

Of course, in order to facilitate galactic travel of some sort, mini astronnomicans would have to be formed at the centre of each empire, causing a greater integration of psykers into society than before and acting as 'checkpoints' for each empire to travel and communicate across. This doesn't come without its downsides, however. Tyranids get spread further across the galaxy, drawn in by each little light, and the forces of Chaos have plenty of new targets to scheme and fight over.

So, altogether, what would an Age of Strife 2.0 mean for Warhammer 40k?

1. A division of Imperial factions: As it stands, the Imperium is just too large as an allied faction. When you get to the tabletop, there's just way too much potential for abuse through allied armies. By splitting humanity into several smaller empires, you can then split them into 'progressive' and 'dogmatic' equivalents of AoS' Grand Alliances. Depending on how generous you'd want to get with some of those progressive interpretations, you could even toss a few Xenos in there for good measure. It also gives much more potential for Imperial infighting, especially the oft-maligned Space Marine on Space Marine action. If each chapter now represents their own smaller empire, it wouldn't be unreasonable to see allies of old going to war against one-another (and then ally together again when another threat looms).

2. Chaos becoming threatening again: Sadly, Chaos just hasn't been too scary of late. They mostly just serve as fluffers for more and more bolter porn. This causes a pretty big problem, since the actual conflicts and acts of heroism by all sides become less and less meaningful. Add as much flowery language as you want, the great deeds of the Space Marines just aren't that interesting when victory is assured. By causing the Empire to lose, and to do so harder than ever before, Chaos instantly becomes a much scarier, more oppressive threat. And by becoming a now dominant force in the galaxy, every act by humanity for survival now has more meaning to it.

3. Xenos respond accordingly: As the Gathering Storm has begun to hint at and as I've noted above, 40k's factions look like they might push more towards a Grand Alliance form of structure. Such big shifts in the status quo would demand similarly large shift amoungst xenos factions, and would provide a great opportunity to realign them fittingly.

4. Things get a lot more interesting: The galaxy becomes a credibly dangerous place again, mankind is no longer assured their dominance, and every inch gained comes with great heroism and sacrifice.


With all the fear people have of an End Times style of rebooting, I feel it might not necessarily be a bad thing, and that something like the above would be a very positive force for 40k. I'm wondering if anyone else would be on a similar page.

2. Chaos becoming threatening again: Sadly, Chaos just hasn't been too scary of late. They mostly just serve as fluffers for more and more bolter porn. This causes a pretty big problem, since the actual conflicts and acts of heroism by all sides become less and less meaningful. Add as much flowery language as you want, the great deeds of the Space Marines just aren't that interesting when victory is assured. By causing the Empire to lose, and to do so harder than ever before, Chaos instantly becomes a much scarier, more oppressive threat. And by becoming a now dominant force in the galaxy, every act by humanity for survival now has more meaning to it.

ohh please even if Chaos won and killed the emperor chaos fans would STILL bitch whine and moan that somehow it didn't count. Just like they've been doing with Cadia. Which the Black legion destroys and then turns into a DEAMON WORLD, and that somehow isn't good eneugh

I don't think making Chaos "more threatening" is the right idea considering Chaos is extremely threatening right now because of the 13th BC. I'd definitely go for "more prevailant" instead. Make it so there are no backwater planets; no more hiding. Everyone is looking out for another Chaos raid now. Now Chaos is spans the entire galaxy apart from the region near Ultramar, which we all know will end up being the next Terra.

I'd also want to see more use of psykers by the remnants of the Imperium. With Terra gone, there is no more Astronomicon. People need to get around the galaxy and now psykers are suddenly super useful and we don't kill them on sight.

I definitely don't agree on the "Let's kill off every Primarch and Big E." With all of them dead, Humanity has no hero to rally behind and will fall, sector by sector. No one will have the gall to step up to the plate and oppose Chaos at large. You can't fracture it all of Humanity and kill off their only chance of ever reuniting. That's a very slippery slope that leads to 40k getting stale fast because Chaos will just burn, rape, plague and manipulate every system they come across until nothing is left. It's a bad case of railroading that always leads to a TPK.

If the Emperor dies in 40k, He will be reborn, with His soul coalesces and His wounds re-knit themselves until He is back at 100%. Coinciding with a plastic 40k model, of course.

He cannot die as the whole schtick of 40k is that the Emperor of Mankind dun goofed with the whole parenting thing (first time parent of 20 kids, cut Him a break, give Him some single parent welfare benefits, c'mon) and has been on the throne, preventing the Imperium from collapsing in on itself. To remove Him from the picture, even if He returns as the starchild or what have you is too far. Do remember the Throne holds back the Imperial Webway from unleashing hordes upon hordes of daemons into Terra, the Sol System, etc.

Why Terra should not (and cannot fall)

-Chaos becomes too powerful: By up and Cadia'ing Terra, you remove the Astronomican, Big E and like, the entire goddamn HEAD of the Imperium. Not to mention Mars in the damn fallout. Bear in mind Mars itself is still crawling with daemon machines from the Heresy. The 4 marked Primarchs are returning, so that's at least enough of a boon for them at the moment.

-Imperial fracture: The Imperium is going to be almost instantly be overrun/annihilated- Cadia is gone, remove Terra and by golly, what does the Imperium have now? The Eye of Terror and the Eye of Terra, adding in the Maelstrom, Armageddon and all the other threats that become magnified if the fallout of His death is heard (as there will be a massive psychic scream, plus losing the light of the Astronomican prevents Imperial ships from navigating effectively). Gulliman has a model in plastic, there's no way in hell he's going anywhere, or dying.

Add into this the fact the Imperium is pretty damn fractured as it is, given how often civil wars pop up within the different branches.

-Xenos: Orks overrun Armageddon, the Eldar throw the Mon-Keigh under the proverbial bus, Nids probably spread out as the Astronomican is gone, so they lose a bit of direction, but hey, they've got the trail of food to keep them busy. Dark eldar....conduct gene flow and redistribute wealth as good pirates do.

While I appreciate the sentiment of Big E having to finally pay His tab, but He's already paying for is as His dream for mankind is gone and He is essentially both a giant lighthouse and doorstop, just helping the Imperium to stay level.

Something needs to happen. Maybe not THAT far... But something.

BrianDavion wrote:

2. Chaos becoming threatening again: Sadly, Chaos just hasn't been too scary of late. They mostly just serve as fluffers for more and more bolter porn. This causes a pretty big problem, since the actual conflicts and acts of heroism by all sides become less and less meaningful. Add as much flowery language as you want, the great deeds of the Space Marines just aren't that interesting when victory is assured. By causing the Empire to lose, and to do so harder than ever before, Chaos instantly becomes a much scarier, more oppressive threat. And by becoming a now dominant force in the galaxy, every act by humanity for survival now has more meaning to it.

ohh please even if Chaos won and killed the emperor chaos fans would STILL bitch whine and moan that somehow it didn't count. Just like they've been doing with Cadia. Which the Black legion destroys and then turns into a DEAMON WORLD, and that somehow isn't good eneugh

Most people bitching about the Gathering Storm has been more about how Chaos became faceless goons by GS3, how GS1 started abruptly at "Yeah the planet is now almost destroyed. Watch the Space Wolves destroy Abaddon's super laser before it does anything of note" and how GS1 contained 0 Chaos Rules or model released, even though Abaddon was the main bad guy.

With it being obvious that GS isn't the end of this story arc, number 3 is kind of acceptable if Abaddon gets a new model later on when he does more stuff, but the first 2 still stand.


But sure, Chaos Players always whine about everything for 0 reason, unlike the prim and proper Loyalists who never whine about anything at all... like Chaos winning in GS1, or Eldar getting stuff in GS2, or Guilliman not being able to move 12" a turn and him lacking a D weapon.


Also killing the Emperor just for the sake of it isn't enough. It has to be done WELL. If it just happens out of nowhere everyone - not just Chaos players - will be pissed. If he dies in a lame way but there's 0 consequence for the Imperium because Guilliman or plot armour (or both) or something, Chaos is going to be pissed. If the Emperor dies and is then reborn and Chaos is in a worse position than before Chaos is going to be rightfully pissed.
Nothing is ever that simple.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

I definitely don't agree on the "Let's kill off every Primarch and Big E." With all of them dead, Humanity has no hero to rally behind and will fall, sector by sector. No one will have the gall to step up to the plate and oppose Chaos at large. You can't fracture it all of Humanity and kill off their only chance of ever reuniting. That's a very slippery slope that leads to 40k getting stale fast because Chaos will just burn, rape, plague and manipulate every system they come across until nothing is left. It's a bad case of railroading that always leads to a TPK.

It leaves room for human heroes. I mean, Solar Macharius was a force all his own, it certainly wouldn't be impossible to have someone take up a similar mantle. Or even if you wanted to stick with the roidbeast route, imagine Calgar given new impetus through Guilliman's death to really pay honour to his Primarch's vision and legacy.

And besides, even without an Emperor present, his own legacy would remain. In fact, the fall of Terra could serve to martyr him even further, lighting a fire under the more dogmatic systems.

I do agree it'd be more fun to see a lot of the big named characters dead (including Chaos ones) so that way there's more room for your own characters.

No. 40k is a setting, not a story. Talking about advancing the plot is completely missing the entire point of the fluff.

Also, the "the Imperium is too big" problem has a much better solution: remove allies from the game (along with formations). One codex, one CAD, just like it used to be before all the ridiculous rules bloat of 6th-7th. Armies can still work together in the larger scale of the background fiction, but that doesn't need to be represented in the small-scale skirmishes of a 2000 point 40k game. Alternatively, if allies really have to stay, remove levels of alliance entirely. Everyone is allies of convenience with everyone else rules-wise, so it's a level playing field.

 Peregrine wrote:
No. 40k is a setting, not a story. Talking about advancing the plot is completely missing the entire point of the fluff.

A point that the people currently in charge of the fluff have gone and missed a while ago. Like it or not (and I do agree that 40k is best as a setting, without the constant need for progression), the push these days is towards moving things forward.

Just read the war of the beast and enjoy ; )

Im fine with Macragge being the new Throneworld. :p

I don't think the Emperor has to die or Terra must fall, but if they are going to advance the story, I wish they would fracture the Imperium, with each of the primary SM legions attempting to restore the Imperium under their vision - it would at least go to explain SM vs. SM fights better than the old organization.

Could possibly do the splitting out the IG and Mars attempting to carve up the empire for itself as well. Perhaps align certain subsets together - say Cadians,Ultras and Mars itself; Space Wolves, Catachans and Styges; Iron Hands, Steel Legion and Metallica; etc.

Also, if the Imperium is no longer the monolithic force in the galaxy, it becomes up for grab for any of the factions - humans or xenos - and GW can run events that allow the participants to shape the power structure of the galaxy, instead of dictating the results (as they have done in the past).

 Stormonu wrote:
Also, if the Imperium is no longer the monolithic force in the galaxy, it becomes up for grab for any of the factions - humans or xenos - and GW can run events that allow the participants to shape the power structure of the galaxy, instead of dictating the results (as they have done in the past).

We all know how this'll end. Can't wait to be ruled by Eldar, Necrons, the Tau and Space Marines. Nothing would make the setting so great as to make it dependent on who wins a broken TT game.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Also, if the Imperium is no longer the monolithic force in the galaxy, it becomes up for grab for any of the factions - humans or xenos - and GW can run events that allow the participants to shape the power structure of the galaxy, instead of dictating the results (as they have done in the past).

We all know how this'll end. Can't wait to be ruled by Eldar, Necrons, the Tau and Space Marines. Nothing would make the setting so great as to make it dependent on who wins a broken TT game.

Or rather this & GW will still dictate the results.
"What, Eldar & Tau alliance wins? Well actually the Space Marines win in a surprise twist! Huzzah!"

I don't think you really need a Horus Heresy 2: Electric Boogaloo to achieve your three main points.

1. Dividing the Imperials: yes, the Imperium is too big as an allied faction. That's also kind of the point of it being the biggest human empire in the galaxy, but whatever. I wouldn't go as far as destroying Terra and wrecking the entire IoM to divide them, though. A new schism of Mars or in the Ecclesiarchy has just as much potential to split the Imperials up, and doesn't require nuking half the setting. You could have a Confederation of Light vs Temple of the Saviour Emperor scenario, in which both sides draw in more and more supporters from all elements of the Imperium's war machine, pitting Astartes, Sisters, Guardsmen, etc. against one another and against themselves.

2. Chaos becoming threatening again: Yes please. I'd love to see this happen. Personally, I'd like the 13th Black Crusade's goal to simply be the destruction of Cadia and the swelling of the Eye of Terror; the beginning of a new era for the CSM. With the Eye of Terror stretched across the galaxy like an open wound, no system is safe from Chaos raids anymore, leaving the Imperials hard-pressed on all sides. Only the systems closest to Terra remain safe for now, but how long until Abaddon finds a way to get the Warp there, too? And so begins the slow death of the Imperium...

Also, give the CSM more toys. The Dark Mechanicum has spent far too much time doing sweet feth all the past decade, it's time they start producing some new horrific weaponry that rivals the Imperials'. More daemon engines and weaponry, please.

3. Xenos responding accordingly: the above scenario's would affect the Xenos as much as the Imperials, so they'll be doing stuff as well, either figuring out ways to fight the new threat or trying to survive as long as possible.

4. Things get more interesting: see point 2.

Given how 'happy' a large part of the community was with the End Times and Age of Sigmar, I'm not sure that such a reboot would work wonders for 40k.

It doesn't need to, but it'd be welcome.

I agree with your complaint that the 40k writers need to learn that not every event needs to be near-world ending to be interesting.
I disagree that the solution is to blow up the world though.

I wish they focused on smaller ~sector level conflicts. Like the novels do, Gaunts Ghosts, beloved by all has achieved nothing of galactic significance yet it's a really interesting story as a whole.
By this route we can have human/xeno heroes leading the way in their own respective campaigns, every faction can have a chance to win without upturning everything else.

 Fafnir wrote:
So, with 8th edition on its way with potentially big gameplay shakeups and the Gathering Storm likely leading up to... well, likely nothing (which, normally, I wouldn't mind in the 40k setting, but GW's writers don't seem to understand that they can keep the universe interesting without everything being a galaxy shattering event), really, I've started to think about possible ways to have a big shift that GW has been implying but not actually living up to.

To preface things, I'm going to point out that I'll be explaining things in a somewhat stunted, manner, since my points come not just from a fluff perspective, but also from that of a gameplay and marketing one.

And I've come pretty adamantly to one point: The Emperor has to die, and Terra must fall. I'll point out that this is going to come across as pretty end-times-ish, and that's because it is. However I think something along such an outline could do a lot to reinvigorate the 40k fluff in great ways if pulled off correctly.

And not starchild die, or any other million resurrection theories die, but die for real. Moreover, so does Guilliman, as well as any other loyalist primarch that decides to make an appearance in the meantime. Give Chaos a big W, and let the Empire of Mankind fall hard.

First off, Guilliman dies doing something heroic, and Chaos could even gain another daemon primarch or three. This raises the stakes for the conflict to come, and gives Chaos credibility as a threat for the first time in a very long while.

The forces of Chaos make their way to Earth, and mount the massive offensive that's been built up for decades. Empire heroes from across the galaxy respond in kind and fight valiantly, but many are lost and in the end. Terra itself is destroyed, and the Emperor along with it. With the Terra gone and the Astronomican lost, mankind is lost and scattered across the galaxy.
Fast forward a couple centuries, and a new age of strife has begun. Small pockets of humanity have managed to reform their own isolated empires across the galaxy, carving back against the now much more omnipresent Chaotic forces. Some would be founded upon ideals fitting with the Empire of old, while others would be considerably more distinct. For example, the Ultramarines would likely have formed a more progressive society in line with Guilliman's vision, while others could be held under very strictly under the conservative and fanatical dogmatic leash of the Ecclesiarchy attempting to salvage its old systems (which itself might splinter off into its own philosophical orders). These two major divides in philosophy would be the two most important, essentially creating a schism between the scattered human empires that divides their allegiances (just imagine the implications for the Inquisition and its agents!).

Of course, in order to facilitate galactic travel of some sort, mini astronnomicans would have to be formed at the centre of each empire, causing a greater integration of psykers into society than before and acting as 'checkpoints' for each empire to travel and communicate across. This doesn't come without its downsides, however. Tyranids get spread further across the galaxy, drawn in by each little light, and the forces of Chaos have plenty of new targets to scheme and fight over.

So, altogether, what would an Age of Strife 2.0 mean for Warhammer 40k?

1. A division of Imperial factions: As it stands, the Imperium is just too large as an allied faction. When you get to the tabletop, there's just way too much potential for abuse through allied armies. By splitting humanity into several smaller empires, you can then split them into 'progressive' and 'dogmatic' equivalents of AoS' Grand Alliances. Depending on how generous you'd want to get with some of those progressive interpretations, you could even toss a few Xenos in there for good measure. It also gives much more potential for Imperial infighting, especially the oft-maligned Space Marine on Space Marine action. If each chapter now represents their own smaller empire, it wouldn't be unreasonable to see allies of old going to war against one-another (and then ally together again when another threat looms).

2. Chaos becoming threatening again: Sadly, Chaos just hasn't been too scary of late. They mostly just serve as fluffers for more and more bolter porn. This causes a pretty big problem, since the actual conflicts and acts of heroism by all sides become less and less meaningful. Add as much flowery language as you want, the great deeds of the Space Marines just aren't that interesting when victory is assured. By causing the Empire to lose, and to do so harder than ever before, Chaos instantly becomes a much scarier, more oppressive threat. And by becoming a now dominant force in the galaxy, every act by humanity for survival now has more meaning to it.

3. Xenos respond accordingly: As the Gathering Storm has begun to hint at and as I've noted above, 40k's factions look like they might push more towards a Grand Alliance form of structure. Such big shifts in the status quo would demand similarly large shift amoungst xenos factions, and would provide a great opportunity to realign them fittingly.

4. Things get a lot more interesting: The galaxy becomes a credibly dangerous place again, mankind is no longer assured their dominance, and every inch gained comes with great heroism and sacrifice.


With all the fear people have of an End Times style of rebooting, I feel it might not necessarily be a bad thing, and that something like the above would be a very positive force for 40k. I'm wondering if anyone else would be on a similar page.

No, I wouldn't be on the same page. And I disagree on all 4.

Terra shall not fall and it doesn't need to.

Lets see who still has his starting point under control.
- Orks ? we don't now where they started...
- Tyranids ? not in this Galaxy..
- Necrons ? eons ago, somewhere in this Galaxy... could be inactive or active, controlled by crons or not.
- Chaos ? isn't a typical "spread into space from a homeworld" type of faction..
- Eldar ? oh yes, they managed to ruin their Realms. Surely lost anything you could call their starting point.
- Tau ? too young, not at a stage where one has to "move on".
- Humans ? yes, Terra belongs to them.
So basically almost every major player is either from an unknown starting point, or may not even have a single location ( chaos ) to be from.
Only the space elves partied too hard ( and had to face the consequences ). Tau can't count because they didn't have the chance and/or time to lose T'au.
In this setup, Humans are the only ones who still own their Home for sure after beeing part of the 40k-verse for a while.
Why make them homeless? This adds nothing to the whole setup. We already have Eldar , the Fall of the Eldar and the Eye of Terror.

WH40k, tells a first look in the rulebooks from a Human perspective. The Emperor is part of the foundation of this, he isn't just a figure you can remove on a whim, because you hope for temporary "improvements".
If you go for this, kill offf the Emperor, kill off the Primarchs, kill off him and her, wouldn't it be fair and square to kill the chaos gods too, the traitors the mutant and the xeno?

I am not sure I will ever understand how one can request a lot of things removed from somebody else, without offering something to compensate.
You want Big E go away? Better be prepared to see your Chaos "gods" undone too.

Chaos is not a credible threat? is chaos limitied to be a military threat now? chaos is the enemy inside, is the one to turn brother against brother isn't it? and it is "not credible" because it doesn't have shiny glorious victories served on a silver platter???
Whenever I see these claims: "my chosen faction isn't as awesome as it should be" , victories presented by GW in expensive books filled with pics seem to be all that matters. But why?

But i also wrote: a big no to points 1-4 didn't I ?

An "age of strife 2.0 " is put forward.
Age of strife 1.0 was overcome because Humans had an Emperor to lead them. Where is Big E's sucessor in this AoS 2.0 ?

1

The IoM is that large because it is the protagonist of the background presented to the playerbase. Like Star Trek has lots of Humans running around on their ships, WH 40k has lots of Humans running around too.
The system of "allies" in the rules of the TT however, seems to be aimed to "stay true to the fluff" but people are always going to game the system. WH 40k existed without the "allies" system and it could do so again.

2

How scary is any chaos win for Orks? or Necrons? or Tyranids? or... You see, Humans are important to many but anyone not limited to Humans would' not see a reason his pick of plastic figures to think of chaos as "scarier".
Maybe chaos needs some significant wins against Eldar, Tau, etc ...
The IoM as measuring stick if someone is a threat, makes Tau pointless, Eldar pointless, only Crons, Orks and Nids matter. And chaos because of the threat the dark side of one self is.
OtOH, whoever read carefully his BRB, knows the game opens with : you will not be remembered, there is only war and enter at your own risk. You want meaning to deeds? Meaning to Heroic acts? Meaning to sacrifice? Wrong universe.IMHO..because in 40k the scale is so large the individual is absolutely unimportant.

3

The not-humans get into this too...and maybe the logic of 40k kicks in. 40k is a royal rumble, not a vs game.
Orks won't keep out of a fight. Necrons will interfere, when they are awake and deem their interests threathened. Tyranids don't have a "only uncorrupted humans" diet. Eldar had their fun with chaos and should know better than to sit at the sidelines. Tau are foolish enough to support chaos...so maybe chaos has to face just 6 opponents...maybe. Now. sure they could go for a takedown of humans to remove one player...
The last sequence of the "full circle" shown in 3rd ed BRB about the rise and fall of empires, is what you are going to get if you think Humans would make another return after the setbacks of the dark age and the heresy.
I doubt many are into games where humans are unavailable or extremly unimportant.

4

Nothing is interesting because it is different then. 40k builds upon the sheer impression of millenia, of a galaxy with millions of worlds, it is already a place of wonders if you let it be. As a TT wargame it is also a place of conflict, of conflict from small skirmishes to epic battles across continents and sectors of space. It is all of this and more.
Until imagination is lost and the company has to deliver "interesting events" , providing a perfect chance to fail.

I don't trust those who thougth the Taurox a good idea, the dreaded dreadknight and more.
GW plays the "get out of jail free cards" right now, heard of that plastic thunderhawk? Maybe they don't believe in a future for mini-based TT-gaming... to explode Terra..oh they have gone with a nice big bang...and no one picking up the IP will have it easy....

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I agree with your complaint that the 40k writers need to learn that not every event needs to be near-world ending to be interesting.
I disagree that the solution is to blow up the world though.

I wish they focused on smaller ~sector level conflicts. Like the novels do, Gaunts Ghosts, beloved by all has achieved nothing of galactic significance yet it's a really interesting story as a whole.
By this route we can have human/xeno heroes leading the way in their own respective campaigns, every faction can have a chance to win without upturning everything else.

I do, too. I remember for Armageddon back in the early 00s, each continent on earth represented a theater on Armageddon and White Dwarf had updates on how the war was going based off of players fighting tabletop battles. I think they might've done the same for the Eye of Terror campaign, but one, if not both, of them ended up being all screwed up because IIRC (which I'm probably missing key details), the forces of the Orks/Chaos won heavily, but GW wrote that the Imperium had last-second victories or something.
I'd love a summer campaign that focused on one system, for example, that the players determined what happened by playing and GW recording records at stores by official gameskeepers, and actually letting what plays out on the tabletop be the results. The Imperium might lose a campaign for once (without any saving graces/silver linings in the forms of last second events)? Shocking!

Why not create another conflict besides focusing solely on how beset upon the Imperium of man is, at all times?

Maybe give the Orks and Tau a versus campaign with updates and stuff. Write stories about these two going at it. Or, Eldar vs Chaos... or Chaos vs Tyranids?

There's a lot of conflict in the universe... explore some of that stuff.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Gathering Waagh!, in response to the Tau committing to ridding the galaxy of the Orks.

Making Chaos great again? Everyone who has read all the GS sidebars carefully knows that hundreds of worlds have been destroyed by Chaos and that they are on the advance everywhere. Making them an even bigger thread would annihilate the Imperium in no time...

Peregrine wrote:No. 40k is a setting, not a story. Talking about advancing the plot is completely missing the entire point of the fluff.

40k might be a setting but it has a narrative.

In terms of the timeline, it got stuck after Medusa V at 0.00001 seconds to midnight on the Doomsday clock, but the narrative kept going, just with more and more events crammed into 999.999.M41.

kirotheavenger wrote:I agree with your complaint that the 40k writers need to learn that not every event needs to be near-world ending to be interesting.
I disagree that the solution is to blow up the world though.

I wish they focused on smaller ~sector level conflicts. Like the novels do, Gaunts Ghosts, beloved by all has achieved nothing of galactic significance yet it's a really interesting story as a whole.
By this route we can have human/xeno heroes leading the way in their own respective campaigns, every faction can have a chance to win without upturning everything else.

I agree with this. Campaigns focusing on individual systems and sectors would allow the galactic map to change a bit and for different factions to achieve things that aren't way over the top. The Badab War is proof that these types of conflicts can be interesting and significant without being universe ending.

 nurgle5 wrote:

Peregrine wrote:No. 40k is a setting, not a story. Talking about advancing the plot is completely missing the entire point of the fluff.

40k might be a setting but it has a narrative.

In terms of the timeline, it got stuck after Medusa V at 0.00001 seconds to midnight on the Doomsday clock, but the narrative kept going, just with more and more events crammed into 999.999.M41.

kirotheavenger wrote:I agree with your complaint that the 40k writers need to learn that not every event needs to be near-world ending to be interesting.
I disagree that the solution is to blow up the world though.

I wish they focused on smaller ~sector level conflicts. Like the novels do, Gaunts Ghosts, beloved by all has achieved nothing of galactic significance yet it's a really interesting story as a whole.
By this route we can have human/xeno heroes leading the way in their own respective campaigns, every faction can have a chance to win without upturning everything else.

I agree with this. Campaigns focusing on individual systems and sectors would allow the galactic map to change a bit and for different factions to achieve things that aren't way over the top. The Badab War is proof that these types of conflicts can be interesting and significant without being universe ending.

If the rumours of a summer campaign are true and Ahriman teams up with N'Kari, I find that factions far more interesting.


What I would like to see from the big ol' storm is this:


1) Karamazov decides to put Guilliman on trial for heresy. He was wounded by a Daemon weapon and lay in convalescence, just like Horus - Then, he was resurrected by Xenos Daemonspawn powers. Then, he immediately went to Terra and replaced numerous loyal High Lords, effectively succeeding at doing the exact thing Horus tried to do. The Imperium is fractured, with some believing in Guilliman's divinity and others grimly determined to protect the Empire-that-was.

2) Abaddon dies. There is no reason a Daemon primarch should listen to that guy and he's had his day in the sun. I assume he makes it to Terra and loses, then is destroyed by said Daemon primarch.

3) The warp storms worsen, not because of Abaddon, but because a new Chaos deity is waking up - Ynnead. This cuts off numerous parts of the galaxy.

4) We discover that , like Humanity, the Eldar were always going to create a Deity with their psychic powers. Tzeentch understood this and introduced the pleasure cults to twist that deity in to one of obsession - Essentially creating a being of pure addiction - As a means of stealing power from Khorne. Tzeentch, the deity of foretelling the future, has been quietly manipulating the Eldar in to creating Ynnead as a means of uniting the power in to one place - A place Tzeentch intends to take, finally intending to catapult himself to the head of the pantheon of Chaos deities.

5) Slaanesh is dead. He knows it. Pleasure is fading from the galaxy as horrors upon horrors are unleashed upon it. Ynnead is coming and, like the prophecies foretold, when the last Eldar dies, Ynnead has the power to overcome Slaanesh. Slaanesh has, what addicts call, a 'Moment of clarity'. Cut off from the source of his power and addiction, he realizes that the only thing that stands between perpetual hell in the Galaxy and the actual rise of pleasure is him - He has to protect the last of the Eldar. If they die, so does he. The Eldar become split between those who follow Ynnead, the Unseelie, and those who follow Slaanesh, the Seelie.

6) The Tau Ethereals reunite with Farsight. It ends badly. Farsight has centuries of Chaos power in him now from his blade. He is not vulnerable to the Ethereal's mind-control.

7) The Silent King returns. Now is the time to reawaken his hordes and claim his kingdom back. He wars with the Empire for land. He wars with the Ynnari to learn the secret of their resurrection. He wars with the Orks to keep his rule steady. None are spared his wrath.

8) The greatest Waaagh! ever seen is launched. Only it and the hive fleet operate with impunity in these Warp Storms - No one knows why.

9). The Hive Fleet meets is mightiest foe as it enters the galaxy proper - The Orks. Which is better at evolving to win? Were the Old Ones, who forged the Orks as a living and indestructible weapon, better than whatever it was that created the Tyranids? Both sides become mightier as they face tougher foes - The perpetual war feeds both and whatever stalemate appears to be happening, whichever one wins, we lose.

To add my two cents, I disagree on almost everything too. I don't mind pushing the story forwards, but I think the manner you're suggesting would strip a great deal of character out of the setting.

1. A division of Imperial factions
Why does this need to happen? The entire reason that the Imperium is so evocative is entirely due to its size. It represents a hellish, overbloated dystopia, beset upon by everything. To split it up would just make the setting feel like a bunch of tinpot dictators being cruel; the whole thing being centralised under a godlike being who's golden vision has been corrupted into meaninglessness is the whole point. If he dies, it'll all have truly been for nothing, and the story is given unwanted finality. It's interesting for the same reason that the Roman Empire is fascinating - killing the head just means it will inevitably disappear which, while grim, isn't particularly interesting. Worse still, it implies that there's no hope at all: if the most fortified, most defended part of the Imperium falls, how can any attempt to say "they can still fight back as a smaller faction" be anything other than laughable? The only way that could possibly be true is to also neuter every other threat in the galaxy, which defeats the whole point.

2. Chaos becoming threatening again
I don't understand this. They literally just destroyed one of the keystones of the Imperium and yet they need to be MORE threatening? Why? I suspect that a large part of your feelings towards Chaos are from the fact that they are bad on the tabletop, and thus feel "weak". In the fluff, they are anything but. The only real detriment to them is the clumsy writing and killing off the biggest player in the galaxy won't change that.

3. Xenos respond accordingly
By doing what? It's already implied that the Tyranid fleet is unstoppable, that Orks need to be constantly fought to suppress their growth and that Necrons have planet destroying weapons. The only reaction they could be expected to have is to grow from near unstoppable forces into literally unstoppable forces; it turns the setting into Xeno vs Xeno with some humans being a nuisance, which is a huge change in the dynamic and IMO invalidates everything I love about 40k.

4. Things get a lot more interesting
Do they? Mankind goes from "likely destruction" to "inevitable destruction", Chaos becomes the major force because no-one can stop them, Tyranids presumably ruin everything they face because there's no huge unified force against them, Orks fight everything in the same exact ways still except now they also inevitably win, Eldar are extra-doomed... in what way is it more interesting? I mean, it might make an exciting plot for a story, but I can't see any way in which it would be better than the current setting. If anything, I'd prefer the converse to happen - the Imperium consolidates into a great power which actually stands a fighting chance, with inter-faction squabbling; at the moment, I don't see how humanity can possibly win against all the threats present.