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I know this may be posted multiple times a day but does anyone have a clue when Chaos is getting an update? For the "big bad" they seem completely redundant, both in fluff (incompetent villains) and crunch (gimped vanilla marines without traitor legions).

All GW keeps doing is adding more and more Imperial armies and updating Space Marines, adding to the power creep. Over half the armies in the game belong to the Imperium. . Much of the Xenos and Chaos armies haven't had a new codex since 2012-2013 so they are useless (Nids, Orks, Deldar)! If you look on the GW new releases page all but 3 or so out of 50 items are for the Imperium! Can GW get over it's hard-on for space marines and overpowered mechs please? Can they stop releasing new armies and go back and fix the earlier races?

It now seems like if you want to run a competitive army that doesn't owe allegiance to the Big E then you have to play Eldar or Necrons or run a Tau cheese list.

It's the price you pay for treason.

Hopefully, is all I can say.

A new Codex might be nice, but I will say it is unneeded competitive ly. You just need to look at allying in Renegades. Chaos and Renegades is top 3 at the moment. Tau and Necrons actually haven't been doing so great lately.

Audustum wrote:
A new Codex might be nice, but I will say it is unneeded competitive ly. You just need to look at allying in Renegades. Chaos and Renegades is top 3 at the moment. Tau and Necrons actually haven't been doing so great lately.

Is riptide/wraith spam not a thing anymore?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
It's the price you pay for treason.

The Corpse God betrayed us! You are but a lapdog of tumerous cowards, running in circles, whilst the Gods lay claim to your souls.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:

Audustum wrote:
A new Codex might be nice, but I will say it is unneeded competitive ly. You just need to look at allying in Renegades. Chaos and Renegades is top 3 at the moment. Tau and Necrons actually haven't been doing so great lately.

Is riptide/wraith spam not a thing anymore?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
It's the price you pay for treason.

The Corpse God betrayed us! You are but a lapdog of tumerous cowards, running in circles, whilst the Gods lay claim to your souls.

Not terribly. Riptides get allied into Eldar lists but that's about it. Tau don't place too well when actually being the dominant faction. Necrons haven't really grabbed any top spots in awhile. I think LVO 2017 and Nova 2016 both had 0 Necrons in the top 8, for example.

It bloody well better.

Especially in the model department, most of the marine kits make me ill when I compare them to their loyalist counterparts.

OP seems to think that Legions doesn't count.

???

If they go the full reboot route then Chaos will probably be updated with the rest.

Why would you want to encourage people to play the good guys?
Chaos are goody two-shoes waging a galactic gurilla war against a cashed up Imperial regime hellbent on subjugating everything and everyone.
...
...kinda reminds me of Star Wars.
Anyway, you can't have that against the wall, shoestring, Rebel-ish feel if you have the same resources as the Empire.
The Empire just got Darth Boring so maybe the Rebels will get Jedi soon.

You don't want Chaos to be the first book they update. Do you really want 'First Codex of the new edition' syndrome?

We -probably- will be the first codex of the new edition, but that just means when Codex number 2 or 3 comes out, we'll be at square one again.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Why would you want to encourage people to play the good guys?
Chaos are goody two-shoes waging a galactic gurilla war against a cashed up Imperial regime hellbent on subjugating everything and everyone.
...
...kinda reminds me of Star Wars.
Anyway, you can't have that against the wall, shoestring, Rebel-ish feel if you have the same resources as the Empire.
The Empire just got Darth Boring so maybe the Rebels will get Jedi soon.

I've never seen Chaos as a scrappy guerrilla force, I've always seen them as as a more powerful, numerous, experienced and better equipped force that the Imperium just barely manages to keep at bay because of Chaos' inherent instability and poor logistical network.

If anything, Chaos units should be better than the Imperium's and just a bit more expensive to compensate.

Chaos as a whole has had a ton of updates.

Are you talking about codex:CSM?

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Why would you want to encourage people to play the good guys?
Chaos are goody two-shoes waging a galactic gurilla war against a cashed up Imperial regime hellbent on subjugating everything and everyone.
...
...kinda reminds me of Star Wars.
Anyway, you can't have that against the wall, shoestring, Rebel-ish feel if you have the same resources as the Empire.
The Empire just got Darth Boring so maybe the Rebels will get Jedi soon.

I've never seen Chaos as a scrappy guerrilla force, I've always seen them as as a more powerful, numerous, experienced and better equipped force that the Imperium just barely manages to keep at bay because of Chaos' inherent instability and poor logistical network.

If anything, Chaos units should be better than the Imperium's and just a bit more expensive to compensate.

Except they already have that - problem is that bit more expensive puts most of their options in the garbage heap - Just like Grey Knights and Deathwatch.

The current meta is insanely powerful or insanely cheap, in between just doesn't work.

Are the CSM units that much more powerful, though? They really need to make the gap in power and cost much more apparent.

At the very least CSM are newborn renegades with the latest Imperial tech, at most, they are 10000 year old veterans, empowered by literal gods, with ancient tech from the days when the Emperor still led the armies of the Imperium.

There's no reason why the loyalist marines should have access to toys the CSM don't (grav, drop pods) or be anywhere near the effectiveness of CSM on a model by model basis.

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:
Are the CSM units that much more powerful, though? They really need to make the gap in power and cost much more apparent.

At the very least CSM are newborn renegades with the latest Imperial tech, at most, they are 10000 year old veterans, empowered by literal gods, with ancient tech from the days when the Emperor still led the armies of the Imperium.

There's no reason why the loyalist marines should have access to toys the CSM don't (grav, drop pods) or be anywhere near the effectiveness of CSM on a model by model basis.

Chaos can't even take Plasma Cannons, except in the case of Obliterators which may just be spitting plasma from their mouths.

Chaos' Contemptor Dreadnoughts have a worse save than Imperial ones

Chaos can't get Thunder Hammers, Grav Weapons Conversion Beamers or the like.

They -do- get Daemonic Possession, which makes their troops fifty times as expensive as Marines and just as likely to die to a bolter shot, though, so that's a thing. But for doing that, they get a 5+ invulnerable save and a worse version of And They Shall Know No Fear known as Fearless.

Deathwatch and Grey Knights have the same problem, whatever extra power they have is still sitting on Marine statlines with Marine saves.

Khorn Berserkers cost one more point per model than Wolf Guard and only fall behind one stat in attack and one stat in leadership, they make up for one by having a naturally higher WS.
The attack stat is equalled out by the Berserker having Counter-attack and Rage and Furious Charge. Wolf Guard have Counter-Attack thenselves and Accute Senses but until you give them Outflank Accute Senses is a useless ability.
Deathwatch cost a point more per model than Berserkers and get Special Issue Ammo and the extra attack like Wolf Guard but don't have the plethora of special rules to make them close combat crazies.
I'm not familiar enough with Grey Knights to compare but people often compare them to Deathwatch so probably a pretty ball park comparison.

All in all they're pretty equal with their equivalents - and all four are rubbish that you don't take unless you don't have a choice.

morgoth wrote:
Chaos as a whole has had a ton of updates.

Are you talking about codex:CSM?

Yes it's nearly five years old. And to the guy who said I hope it's not 1st Codex released I agree completely. I think they should always update SM first as they get a new codex every edition so it's only fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:
Are the CSM units that much more powerful, though? They really need to make the gap in power and cost much more apparent.

At the very least CSM are newborn renegades with the latest Imperial tech, at most, they are 10000 year old veterans, empowered by literal gods, with ancient tech from the days when the Emperor still led the armies of the Imperium.

There's no reason why the loyalist marines should have access to toys the CSM don't (grav, drop pods) or be anywhere near the effectiveness of CSM on a model by model basis.

No ATSKNF, though we do get free VoTLW if we play a legion, which still isn't as good.

Marks get very expensive and some are worthless like Tzeentch on anything that isn't an Oblit or Termie.

Our units are more expensive, and there are less choices. Though I do like our HQ customisation, we don't get anything Vanilla Marines don't. The only edge we have over vanilla Marines is special characters and looks.

TBH I wouldn't be too on-board with CSM getting grav. I think it should stay vanilla Marines only.

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:
Are the CSM units that much more powerful, though? They really need to make the gap in power and cost much more apparent.

At the very least CSM are newborn renegades with the latest Imperial tech, at most, they are 10000 year old veterans, empowered by literal gods, with ancient tech from the days when the Emperor still led the armies of the Imperium.

There's no reason why the loyalist marines should have access to toys the CSM don't (grav, drop pods) or be anywhere near the effectiveness of CSM on a model by model basis.

so basicly you want CSMs to have every option vanilla marines have.. and then their own chaos stuff?

We are still not sure what the format for Dexes will be and if it will go bye bye in favor of combined books or even free down loadable content that is updated frequently bases on community feedback etc... This seems one possibility which helps resolve the issue of codexes needing updates with every edition.

I do not think it has been verified one way or another so it is really a big question mark. I for one am excited to see how the new formats will go down or even how tweaks to the game will effect current units. Imagine if CC could come before shooting (Tzangoors FTW!) or on your turn you can choose to go or have your opponent go.

These and other rumors to variable movement and armor save modifiers can have significant impacts on current codexes and how they perform.


I gotta jump on the point cost reduction bandwagon though as the biggest need for Chaos. If we can't have new toys we need to supplement with powers, gifts, evil tech and more ability to field more units.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:
Are the CSM units that much more powerful, though? They really need to make the gap in power and cost much more apparent.

At the very least CSM are newborn renegades with the latest Imperial tech, at most, they are 10000 year old veterans, empowered by literal gods, with ancient tech from the days when the Emperor still led the armies of the Imperium.

There's no reason why the loyalist marines should have access to toys the CSM don't (grav, drop pods) or be anywhere near the effectiveness of CSM on a model by model basis.

so basicly you want CSMs to have every option vanilla marines have.. and then their own chaos stuff?

Yes, because CSM are literally vanilla marines + Chaos taint. Obviously, vanilla marines should be cheaper to reflect their superior logistics.

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:
Are the CSM units that much more powerful, though? They really need to make the gap in power and cost much more apparent.

At the very least CSM are newborn renegades with the latest Imperial tech, at most, they are 10000 year old veterans, empowered by literal gods, with ancient tech from the days when the Emperor still led the armies of the Imperium.

There's no reason why the loyalist marines should have access to toys the CSM don't (grav, drop pods) or be anywhere near the effectiveness of CSM on a model by model basis.

so basicly you want CSMs to have every option vanilla marines have.. and then their own chaos stuff?

Yes, because CSM are literally vanilla marines + Chaos taint. Obviously, vanilla marines should be cheaper to reflect their superior logistics.

if unit cost was based purely on logistics Imperial Guard infantry would be free.

It's a new edition, so we don't know what chaos needs, for all we know they could need a nerf out of the gates. In 7th ed they are over cost and lacking a lot of the cool toys loyalist have, if either of those weren't true they would be in a much better place. Let's wait until we get a look at the actual rules and then decide what chaos needs.

We dont need grav and plasma cannons. we need sweeping point decreases on everything and our demon engines need to be competitive like the hel drake was.

Table wrote:
We dont need grav and plasma cannons. we need sweeping point decreases on everything and our demon engines need to be competitive like the hel drake was.

Knowing GW we will probably get a point increase on Oblits, Hellturkey and DP, and a special weapon cap on Chosen.

Seriously though, vanilla CSM and Termies could be so much cheaper, among other things.

Will chaos get an update you ask? I'm gonna have to give you a solid maybe on that one.