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With the new game on the horizon, even after a few hours looking up Youtube videos I am still finding a lot of blanks and things that don't make sense. I must admit, I was incredibly put off by the first Destiny. Less is not more and to me this was a trend ever since Halo 2 (Bungie's best campaign) where they increasingly dumbed the characters and plot down. I know people like to see Destiny as a blip, but that's my take. Even games like CoD at least have actual characters, cinematics and explain who the enemies are and why they are fighting. I still don't understand what the main campaign was actually about. Plus I bought House of Wolves and the Crota expansion but hit a gear wall after the main campaign and after a few days of struggling with the same handful of impossible operations (Spawn of Crota) and such gave up on the first mission of the expansion. Don't like any game that wastes my money and time.

But rant over, heres my questions:

1 - Are the Kabal servants of the Darkness? If not, why are they trying to destroy the Traveller and Guardians in Destiny 2? Won't destroying the Traveller and Guardians allow the Darkness (Hive) to destroy everyone?

2 - If the Fallen once lived with the Travellers blessing why can't they also become Guardians and come to an arrangement with the humans? Awoken and robots can become Guardians so its clearly not limited to one race. Why are they so determined to kill humanity? This also applies to the Kabal if they are not servants of the Darkness. Killing the Guardians and weakening the Traveller will allow the Darkness to kill everything.

3 - What are the Vex? Are they servants of the Darkness? Why are they trying to destroy the Traveller since that means the Darkness will destroy everything? What were the Vex doing in the Black Garden during the main campaign? Why did Bungie decide to make the Vex the main enemy in the campaign when they are the most confusing and difficult to understand faction?

4 - Why are there so many factions not clearly aligned to the light and darkness? If this is a biblical struggle between these two galactic forces it is incredibly confusing to have factions that exist outside of that conflict. On my first playthrough I just assumed that they were all servants of the Darkness. In Star Wars: Rebels = Light Side Empire = Dark Side. To do anything else is incredibly confusing if not properly explained.

Saw this earlier, apologies, I'll get to answering now.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
With the new game on the horizon, even after a few hours looking up Youtube videos I am still finding a lot of blanks and things that don't make sense. I must admit, I was incredibly put off by the first Destiny. Less is not more and to me this was a trend ever since Halo 2 (Bungie's best campaign) where they increasingly dumbed the characters and plot down. I know people like to see Destiny as a blip, but that's my take. Even games like CoD at least have actual characters, cinematics and explain who the enemies are and why they are fighting. I still don't understand what the main campaign was actually about. Plus I bought House of Wolves and the Crota expansion but hit a gear wall after the main campaign and after a few days of struggling with the same handful of impossible operations (Spawn of Crota) and such gave up on the first mission of the expansion. Don't like any game that wastes my money and time.

A lot of what makes Destiny good, in my opinion, is the lore, which is admittedly barred to many. This is actually coming from an Xbox 360 player, so I couldn't access the Rise of Iron, and won't be taking part in the Age of Triumph - but I'm still trying to stay active on the lore front.

But rant over, heres my questions:

1 - Are the Kabal servants of the Darkness? If not, why are they trying to destroy the Traveller and Guardians in Destiny 2? Won't destroying the Traveller and Guardians allow the Darkness (Hive) to destroy everyone?

The Cabal are probably the least involved with the Darkness out of all the enemy factions.
The actual Darkness itself is poor;y understood both in and out of the universe - we aren't really sure what it is. The most plausible dfinition comes from Toland, who has more or less become one with the Hive netherworld, who are the closest to the power of the Deep/Darkness. He likens it to three kingdoms, with each kingdom specialising in absolute law, absolute knowledge, and absolute power respectively. The kingdom with absolute power trumps all the other kingdoms, and then goes to war with like minded kingdoms in which the strongest survives. The Darkness, by this regard, is survival of the fittest.

However, it is also likely that the Darkness is simply anything which conquers, rather than building to sustain growth and harmony - the goal of the Light. As such, the Cabal, being one of the most destructive races could be affiliated with the "Darkness".

Back on track - the Cabal fight because of their orders. They are exiled from the Empire on campaign, so the only way they get to go back home is victory or death. As such, they will just steamroll through the Solar System because of their orders. The Guardians impediment their conquest, so must be eliminated. That's part of the reason they invade the Dreadnaught in the Taken King: they notice that the Hive could permanently kill Guardians whereas they could not. They wanted to learn how to stop their biggest impediment. Now, all the ranking Cabal officers were killed by Guardians - the Empire is obviously going to attack the home of the Guardians with extreme prejudice (and this is a culture to obliterate moons for getting in the way).

2 - If the Fallen once lived with the Travellers blessing why can't they also become Guardians and come to an arrangement with the humans? Awoken and robots can become Guardians so its clearly not limited to one race. Why are they so determined to kill humanity? This also applies to the Kabal if they are not servants of the Darkness. Killing the Guardians and weakening the Traveller will allow the Darkness to kill everything.

The Fallen/Eliksni once did benefit from the Traveller's blessing, but the Traveller left them when the actual Darkness attacked. This is known as the Whirlwind. Without the Traveller, the Fallen were routed, and then sought to either reclaim or destroy the Traveller themselves, thus taking on the power of the Darkness, or conquering power. Some Fallen do want to revert to their old ways (see Variks of House Judgement), but many more want to see humanity crumble out of spite or jealousy. For some, the tech-power of SIVA represents a greater power than the Light of the Traveller, and that leads us to the Fallen Devil Splicers.

Incidentally, the Ghosts that create Guardians were only created on Earth, when the Traveller was unable to flee, like they did before with the Fallen. Rasputin, the Warmind, crippled the Traveller and forced it to defend humanity itself against the Darkness instead of fleeing.

3 - What are the Vex? Are they servants of the Darkness? Why are they trying to destroy the Traveller since that means the Darkness will destroy everything? What were the Vex doing in the Black Garden during the main campaign? Why did Bungie decide to make the Vex the main enemy in the campaign when they are the most confusing and difficult to understand faction?

The Vex are simply hyper-intelligent to the point where, in certain conditions, they can rewrite entities out of time itself (the Gorgons from the Vault of Glass). The Vex were essentially created when they encountered Oryx and his mastery of the Darkness. They attempted to harness the power of Oryx, and created the Heart of the Black Garden, drawn from knowledge in the Vault of Glass. Their whole aim is to weaponise time, or paracausality - being able to write time and space as they see fit. The Vault is just a massive testing chamber for that.
The Heart of the Black Garden is the closest the Vex got to creating the Darkness itself, and only worship it because that's the most efficient thing to do. They wouldn't do it if not important.

As for why they chose the Vex? Well, I have no idea. A lot of the Vex stuff only becomes a lot better after the Taken King and the Grimoire Cards associated with it.

4 - Why are there so many factions not clearly aligned to the light and darkness? If this is a biblical struggle between these two galactic forces it is incredibly confusing to have factions that exist outside of that conflict. On my first playthrough I just assumed that they were all servants of the Darkness. In Star Wars: Rebels = Light Side Empire = Dark Side. To do anything else is incredibly confusing if not properly explained.

Again, the Darkness is less of an allegiance and more of a force, or energy. The Darkness is, essentially, the ability to conquer, to subjugate, to overpower - the Light is that of growth.

Taken apart, here's how I see the actions relating to the Light and Dark:
Humanity, the Exos, Guardians generally: Support the Traveller and the Light, empowered by it.
The Awoken and the Jovians: Opposed to the Darkness, but not empowered by the Light.
Fallen: Hatred/Jealousy of the Traveller and humanity, but not empowered by the Darkness
Cabal: Hyper-militaristic Empire, not empowered by the Darkness or acting under it's orders, but may be running from it. Vendetta against Guardians
Vex: Harness a weaker power of the Darkness, mainly paracausality and time warping. Wish to bend the universe to their simulations.
Hive: Powered directly by the Deep/Darkness by Oryx and her sisters, in the form of symbiotic worms. Exist to feed Oryx.
Taken: Vassals subsumed by the will of Oryx and the full power of the Darkness.
SIVA Fallen: Fallen who have given their bodies up for mechanical augmentation - still hatred of the Traveller, but would rather augment themselves than take the Traveller's gifts.

Hope this all helps - again, there's so much to say, but the Grimoire or Redditors would be better than me at explaining it fully.

If the Darkness is an all consuming thing, like Chaos or the Dark Side, then why haven't the Kabal and Fallen been fully corrupted like the Hive have been? Surely if you are evil and turn away from the light then by extension that would lead to the Darkness corrupting you? I am not entirely sure how you can exist outside of that structure. If the Darkness wants to win it wouldn't be picky.

Do the Kabal not realize that they will all die/taken if they destroy the Traveller in Destiny 2? That seems extremely stupid of them. Surely they would know about the collapse by now?

So the Kabal and Fallen aren't picked as Guardians because they're evil so Ghosts would never pick up their dead?

If the Darkness is a force, like Chaos, then why is it not able to compel/manipulate those under its influence like the Vex and Hive to work together to destroy the light? Sure you have Oryx thing, but that's different and one monsters will as opposed to the Darkness itself.


Isn't it a bit weird that Destiny 2 is focusing on a faction that isn't aligned to the Darkness? I don't see how you can top Oryx and it seems to run counter to it being this Light vs Darkness thing.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
If the Darkness is an all consuming thing, like Chaos or the Dark Side, then why haven't the Kabal and Fallen been fully corrupted like the Hive have been? Surely if you are evil and turn away from the light then by extension that would lead to the Darkness corrupting you? I am not entirely sure how you can exist outside of that structure. If the Darkness wants to win it wouldn't be picky.

It's unclear exactly what the Darkness is. There's a variety of theses, but nothing actually confirmed. All we know is that it is deemed as "acausal", and resulted in near-wiping out humanity and the Eliksni. It could be a hyper-advanced race, a cosmic force, a fundamental nature. We simply don't know enough about the nature of the Darkness.

The Cabal and Fallen have similar aims to those of the Darkness - to conquer all and survive in strength. However, they are not corrupted like the Hive. THe Hive are corrupted as such because they embraced the power of the Darkness. The Fallen and Cabal have not - the Cabal are a whole separate Empire, with other fleets in the vastness of space. They have just as much autonomy as a Guardian or Reefborn.

Do the Kabal not realize that they will all die/taken if they destroy the Traveller in Destiny 2? That seems extremely stupid of them. Surely they would know about the collapse by now?

The power of the Taken can only be wielded by a select few of the Hive hierarchy - Oryx, her sisters, Malok, etc etc - they can all harness the Darkness to "take". Without that, the Taken cannot form.
Again, the biggest issue to the Cabal isn't the Darkness - it's us, the Guardians. We killed every ranking officer of the Cabal army, with the exclusion of Primus Ta'aun (who we technically kill after being Taken). We're their biggest priority, and they target us as accordingly.

So the Kabal and Fallen aren't picked as Guardians because they're evil so Ghosts would never pick up their dead?

Well, the Cabal couldn't have been reached by the Ghosts (seeing as they were either not in the system as of the collapse, or just simply the fact they were on Mars, unlike the Ghosts), and the Fallen were already passed over by the Traveller once. We don't know the specifics, but we do know that one can refuse to be a Guardian (the cryo-frozen body in the Cosmodrome), and that one needs to be chosen. If one of the criteria is that only humanity-allied forces can be Guardians, that's the Traveller's rule.

We simply don't know, because we've not seen it. However, it would be logical that an ally of the Traveller be reanimated, for maximum loyalty.

If the Darkness is a force, like Chaos, then why is it not able to compel/manipulate those under its influence like the Vex and Hive to work together to destroy the light? Sure you have Oryx thing, but that's different and one monsters will as opposed to the Darkness itself.

The Darkness isn't a controlling force, so much as I see it - at least, it's more of a power harnessed, but with no intrinsic will of it's own. The idea of the Darkness as well is of domination - teamwork isn't a thing. A ruling "monarch", so to speak, is only strong because they defeated everyone else. Working together is not the way of the Darkness/Deep.

Isn't it a bit weird that Destiny 2 is focusing on a faction that isn't aligned to the Darkness? I don't see how you can top Oryx and it seems to run counter to it being this Light vs Darkness thing.

Well, Oryx is literally one of the three hive gods. Short of fighting the Darkness itself, it's not much bigger than that.
But Ghaul and his Cabal? They're a massive threat, and probably brought an absolutely massive army with them. We'll have a hell of a fight with him.

It's a big threat yes. But it's B list compared to Oryx and it's a bit like a Star Wars film where you don't have any Sith/Dark side and are just fighting Gary.

My impression is that the Darkness is this cosmic thing, either a Well of power or an eldritch god. That's how it comes across with all the stuff about the collapse and lovecraftian stuff in the book of sorrows. Wheel of Time has a very similar set up.

Because of that I struggle to understand why the Cabal would ignore the fact that the forces of the Darkness will win if they destroy the Traveller. They don't have any real defence against this magic and the Taken King should have made that clear to them. Surely if they're a rational enemy they would want to take the Traveller for themselves, not set it on fire per the trailers.

I mean Oryx destroyed entire civilisations across the galaxy. Surely the knowledge that there are things like that in the galaxy that could destroy their empire would cause a rethink. To go back to the first point, Oryx is pretty much space Sauron.

Doesn't seem all that B-list to me, when they've managed to do what all of the other factions haven't.

Wreck the City.

To get to your analogy, it's like you're saying the Yhuuzan Vong were B-list, because they didn't use the Force.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It's a big threat yes. But it's B list compared to Oryx and it's a bit like a Star Wars film where you don't have any Sith/Dark side and are just fighting Gary.

Gary has done what no other force in the entire Destiny universe has done - successfully assaulted the Tower, at a time when the Guardians are deemed at their strongest. Their Age of Triumph, so to speak.

We have no idea of the power of Gary and his Red Legion, but they are clearly a foe to be reckoned with, and are a massive threat to the whole system.

My impression is that the Darkness is this cosmic thing, either a Well of power or an eldritch god. That's how it comes across with all the stuff about the collapse and lovecraftian stuff in the book of sorrows. Wheel of Time has a very similar set up.

Because of that I struggle to understand why the Cabal would ignore the fact that the forces of the Darkness will win if they destroy the Traveller. They don't have any real defence against this magic and the Taken King should have made that clear to them. Surely if they're a rational enemy they would want to take the Traveller for themselves, not set it on fire per the trailers.

The Cabal's biggest threat, the one that has hurt them the absolute most, is us Guardians. No other force has caused as much damage to them as we have. They have no idea what the Traveller is, how to stop us reanimating, transmatting, etc etc - we are an anomaly to them. The Hive, the Fallen, the Vex? They can fight them. They would have destroyed the Dreadnaught if not for us. They wipe the floor with the Fallen, and the Vex? Well, they're the Vex.
The Darkness in it's Collapse tier power hasn't been seen for centuries. The Cabal likely don't even know what it's capable of, and we don't know if they'd even be bothered by it.

I mean Oryx destroyed entire civilisations across the galaxy. Surely the knowledge that there are things like that in the galaxy that could destroy their empire would cause a rethink. To go back to the first point, Oryx is pretty much space Sauron.

The Cabal are a whole founded Empire with slave races, the power to destroy whole moons for getting in the way, pulling Deimos out of orbit, psionic powers, and just one ship was able to board the Dreadnaught and nearly destroy it.

Oryx was a God. How strong does that make the Cabal, and more importantly, us?

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
With the new game on the horizon, even after a few hours looking up Youtube videos I am still finding a lot of blanks and things that don't make sense. I must admit, I was incredibly put off by the first Destiny. Less is not more and to me this was a trend ever since Halo 2 (Bungie's best campaign) where they increasingly dumbed the characters and plot down. I know people like to see Destiny as a blip, but that's my take. Even games like CoD at least have actual characters, cinematics and explain who the enemies are and why they are fighting. I still don't understand what the main campaign was actually about. Plus I bought House of Wolves and the Crota expansion but hit a gear wall after the main campaign and after a few days of struggling with the same handful of impossible operations (Spawn of Crota) and such gave up on the first mission of the expansion. Don't like any game that wastes my money and time.

But rant over, heres my questions:

1 - Are the Kabal servants of the Darkness? If not, why are they trying to destroy the Traveller and Guardians in Destiny 2? Won't destroying the Traveller and Guardians allow the Darkness (Hive) to destroy everyone?

2 - If the Fallen once lived with the Travellers blessing why can't they also become Guardians and come to an arrangement with the humans? Awoken and robots can become Guardians so its clearly not limited to one race. Why are they so determined to kill humanity? This also applies to the Kabal if they are not servants of the Darkness. Killing the Guardians and weakening the Traveller will allow the Darkness to kill everything.

3 - What are the Vex? Are they servants of the Darkness? Why are they trying to destroy the Traveller since that means the Darkness will destroy everything? What were the Vex doing in the Black Garden during the main campaign? Why did Bungie decide to make the Vex the main enemy in the campaign when they are the most confusing and difficult to understand faction?

4 - Why are there so many factions not clearly aligned to the light and darkness? If this is a biblical struggle between these two galactic forces it is incredibly confusing to have factions that exist outside of that conflict. On my first playthrough I just assumed that they were all servants of the Darkness. In Star Wars: Rebels = Light Side Empire = Dark Side. To do anything else is incredibly confusing if not properly explained.

Been years since I've last played (before the Oryx DLC) but will see what I can remember
1. I believe thry are not aligned with the darkness as they fight the Vex. The cabal in D2 are servants of another leader, whether he is aligned with the Cabal from the first game.

2. I don't recall anything about the fallen being allowed to live by the traveler, though this could be new lore. The exo were created by humans and the awoken are descended from humans so I guess this is why they are what they are. I'm pretty sure the only race which wants to exterminate humanity is the hive. The rest just want power/territory.

3. AFAIK the Vex are an ancient civilisation, older than humanity by millions of years. They serve the darkness. I can't exactly remember the purpose of the black garden though, other than it was of major significance to the darkness.

4. New lore so I can't really help you.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It's a big threat yes. But it's B list compared to Oryx and it's a bit like a Star Wars film where you don't have any Sith/Dark side and are just fighting Gary.

Gary has done what no other force in the entire Destiny universe has done - successfully assaulted the Tower, at a time when the Guardians are deemed at their strongest. Their Age of Triumph, so to speak.

We have no idea of the power of Gary and his Red Legion, but they are clearly a foe to be reckoned with, and are a massive threat to the whole system.

My impression is that the Darkness is this cosmic thing, either a Well of power or an eldritch god. That's how it comes across with all the stuff about the collapse and lovecraftian stuff in the book of sorrows. Wheel of Time has a very similar set up.

Because of that I struggle to understand why the Cabal would ignore the fact that the forces of the Darkness will win if they destroy the Traveller. They don't have any real defence against this magic and the Taken King should have made that clear to them. Surely if they're a rational enemy they would want to take the Traveller for themselves, not set it on fire per the trailers.

The Cabal's biggest threat, the one that has hurt them the absolute most, is us Guardians. No other force has caused as much damage to them as we have. They have no idea what the Traveller is, how to stop us reanimating, transmatting, etc etc - we are an anomaly to them. The Hive, the Fallen, the Vex? They can fight them. They would have destroyed the Dreadnaught if not for us. They wipe the floor with the Fallen, and the Vex? Well, they're the Vex.
The Darkness in it's Collapse tier power hasn't been seen for centuries. The Cabal likely don't even know what it's capable of, and we don't know if they'd even be bothered by it.

I mean Oryx destroyed entire civilisations across the galaxy. Surely the knowledge that there are things like that in the galaxy that could destroy their empire would cause a rethink. To go back to the first point, Oryx is pretty much space Sauron.

The Cabal are a whole founded Empire with slave races, the power to destroy whole moons for getting in the way, pulling Deimos out of orbit, psionic powers, and just one ship was able to board the Dreadnaught and nearly destroy it.

Oryx was a God. How strong does that make the Cabal, and more importantly, us?

See you've lost me there because its a little like comparing the Tau to Chaos. Yes, the Tau is important and a threat but it pails in comparison to the armies of hell. Oryx wasn't on the dreadnought when they tried to blow it up, otherwise he would have done that pulse thing that destroyed the Awoken. Plus I got impression from last cutscene that he can't really be killed and can return through his sword.

Surely they would do some background research and interrogate prisoners to learn the nature of what they are fighting, the light, the collapse and the darkness? If they have been there for years it seems odd that they wouldn't be aware of all of this.

Its described as a big empire but that doesn't really mean a lot. When I was listening to the book of sorrows and it lists off all the insane stuff that Oryx and his sisters destroy it sounds like they eat empires like that for breakfast; even if they were empowered by the light. Plus I saw one guy theorycrafting that the Kabal Empire had been destroyed and its armies were running from the Darkness. Is that incorrect given what we see in Destiny 2?

Basically Oryx and his sisters came across as the most powerful beings in the galaxy and so I am not sure how Gary squares up to them as a villain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:
Doesn't seem all that B-list to me, when they've managed to do what all of the other factions haven't.

Wreck the City.

To get to your analogy, it's like you're saying the Yhuuzan Vong were B-list, because they didn't use the Force.

Well the Vong have to be understood as a conscious attempt to try something different after so many years of the same story and there was always the tension that it didn't feel like Star Wars. After that book series they went straight back to the Jedi/Sith stuff. Destiny has opened with this Light vs Darkness thing so it isn't the same. Why focus on a faction not related to the core conflict of the light vs the darkness?

Plus, the only thing in Star Wars comparable to Oryx would be some of the more powerful Sith like Darth Nihilus and Vitiate the Sith Emperor who could consume the life of entire planets if not whole galaxies and were almost dark gods.

Its like Gary is Mandalore. Oryx is the Sith Emperor. There just isn't a comparison.

Hive leaders like Oryx have, essentially, a pocket dimension they exist in so killing their body in the real world doesn't end them. The story ends with killing his body on the Dreadnought but the King's Fall raid has you enter his pocket dimension and kill him once and for all.

Also the Cabal think they are biggest swinging [censored] in the Universe and as a result are fairly arrogant so it would not surprise me that they didn't learn that much about their enemies as they really wouldn't think much of them.

 Ahtman wrote:
Hive leaders like Oryx have, essentially, a pocket dimension they exist in so killing their body in the real world doesn't end them. The story ends with killing his body on the Dreadnought but the King's Fall raid has you enter his pocket dimension and kill him once and for all.

Also the Cabal think they are biggest swinging [censored] in the Universe and as a result are fairly arrogant so it would not surprise me that they didn't learn that much about their enemies as they really wouldn't think much of them.

That's a shame. He seemed to be the "big bad" and was portrayed as more powerful than his sisters. What was all that stuff with the sword about then? I mean I just don't see how you can top a villain like that. Gary is basically just a big alien in power armor. Oryx was a dark god of ruin and death.

So they're not questioning how Sauron turned their army into puppets of flesh and bone? They don't know that Oryx was basically Galactus and ate civilizations for breakfast? That the Traveller is the only thing keeping the Darkness at bay and they have no defense against the Darkness being neither creatures of the light or darkness? So we're saying they're idiots and their actions are dooming the solar system?

Do you think Gary is the main villain?

They aren't really gods though and your Ghost at several points even makes a remark along the lines of being ready to kill a god. The Fallen treat certain machines, like Servitor Prime, as god as well. None of that has stopped the Guardians from showing they aren't gods, just powerful beings. I imagine Greg to be no different in that regard.

And no, I don't think Greg is the main villian, but he will be the focus for a bit. The Fallen may have scuttled off somewhere but there are still leftover Hive as well as the Vex to deal with. We also still have The Stranger (that time traveling exo female) storyline as well as possible unknown enemies.

 Ahtman wrote:
They aren't really gods though and your Ghost at several points even makes a remark along the lines of being ready to kill a god. The Fallen treat certain machines, like Servitor Prime, as god as well. None of that has stopped the Guardians from showing they aren't gods, just powerful beings. I imagine Greg to be no different in that regard.

This is very true.

What constitutes a "God" is different in Destiny. To us, a God is utterly beyond us to imagine defeating, being so elevated above mortals as to be divine. In Destiny, multiple beings are worshipped as Gods.

The Heart of the Black Garden was worshipped by the Vex as a God (who we might assume could be Quria, Blade Transform, a simulation of Oryx), and we destroyed that alone.
Crota, the son of Oryx, and thus being divine himself, was killed in his own pocket realm, slain by his own sword. We killed a lesser God of the Hive Pantheon, and many people have done it solo.
Skolas, Kell of Kells - he isn't quite a God, but certainly had the strength to be regarded as one by the House of Wolves and a lot of the other Fallen Houses. Still a very powerful being.
Oryx, one of the three greater Gods of the Hive Pantheon. Not as much of a warrior as his sister, Xivu Arath, but still formindable especially with the power to take. We killed Oryx's material form alone, and then killed her soul in the heart of his pocket realm. The sword isn't the mean by which Oryx lives on, if I may point out. Oryx either used the power of the Taken on himself, preserving his soul, or he simply disappeared into his Throneworld, like Crota's. Regardless, by being killed there, Oryx is fully destroyed, as he points out in the Books of Sorrow. The sword, Willbreaker, is then used in the legendary and exotic swords we forge ourselves in the Taken King from Shaxx.
Aksis and Sepiks Perfected are also Gods of the Fallen, augmented by SIVA to reach godhood. They are worshipped as divine by the Splicers, and we kill them both.
In fact, all Servitor Primes are Gods to the Fallen. We kill Orbiks on Mars Kaliks in the Prison of Elders, Sepiks repeatedly on Earth, and I think Simiks is killed off screen, and replaced by Simiks-3. They are all dead because of us.
All the Cabal highest officers Primus Ta'aun and Valus' Ta'aurc, Mau'aul, Tlu'urn, Tra'ug, Tau'ugh, Gho'ourn - all killed by us.

The toughest the galaxy can throw at us - Gods and chosen leaders all. If we can kill Gods, then how strong does that make a Guardian? And if we're that strong, how strong must Gary be if he can destroy the Tower?

Well I reinstalled Destiny and since they have changed how the gearing/levelling system works I was able to complete Crota and Wolves.

Whilst the stories made sense unlike the main campaign, I don't agree with Bungies minimalist take and the lack of cinematics to explain what's going on. You sort of just arrive and end up being given random missions to kill hive and skolas.

I can't understand why Bungie wilfully ignored its previous games and what its peer competitors did. Even MMO like TOR has cutscenes and takes the time to contextualise stuff and set the tone.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Well I reinstalled Destiny and since they have changed how the gearing/levelling system works I was able to complete Crota and Wolves.

Whilst the stories made sense unlike the main campaign, I don't agree with Bungies minimalist take and the lack of cinematics to explain what's going on. You sort of just arrive and end up being given random missions to kill hive and skolas.

I can't understand why Bungie wilfully ignored its previous games and what its peer competitors did. Even MMO like TOR has cutscenes and takes the time to contextualise stuff and set the tone.

They vaguely explain the mission as you fly into it, and this approach is done a lot better in the Taken King, especially with more cutscenes, but putting all the lore off the game does hurt from a storytelling perspective.

Destiny has solid lore - it's just not in the actual game itself.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Well I reinstalled Destiny and since they have changed how the gearing/levelling system works I was able to complete Crota and Wolves.

Whilst the stories made sense unlike the main campaign, I don't agree with Bungies minimalist take and the lack of cinematics to explain what's going on. You sort of just arrive and end up being given random missions to kill hive and skolas.

I can't understand why Bungie wilfully ignored its previous games and what its peer competitors did. Even MMO like TOR has cutscenes and takes the time to contextualise stuff and set the tone.

They vaguely explain the mission as you fly into it, and this approach is done a lot better in the Taken King, especially with more cutscenes, but putting all the lore off the game does hurt from a storytelling perspective.

Destiny has solid lore - it's just not in the actual game itself.

Yeah but it isn't really expanded lore. Take Halo 2. In between missions you usually get a cinematic which tells you what the Prophet of Truth is doing, what happened to the Arbiter and establishes that Tartarus hates you. Not only does this give you more information but it sets the tone and you feel more engaged in the gameplay as a result. But, you don't actually get told some of the heavy lore about the elites relationship with the Brutes, their tense position in the Covenant hierarchy and the lies of the Prophets. This is all inferred or at least related in a basic to understand form. Bungie decided to forget this in favour of throwing you straight into the mission. Even COD doesn't do that. You play Infinite Warfare and it takes the two minutes to explain why people on Mars are attacking Earth with a pretty impressive cinematic that sets the tone. This was a real issue because the game was marketed as another great story driven sci fi epic from Bungie. It's not like they said it would be a multiplayer only game.

I think that Bungie thought they were doing something positive by putting all the lore online separate from the game but it didn't quite work out to be a good way of handling it. Hopefully Destiny 2 will find a better balance. I kind of get that they were going for an immersive multimedia project I just don't believe it worked as well off paper.

Also the Cabal didn't crash into the Dreadnought because they were worried about the Hive but because they believed the Hive had learned how to permanently kill Guardians and wanted to get that intel. Of course that didn't work out once the Guardians showed up, so they tried to blow the Dreadnought along with the system, which the Guardians also stopped.

And you thought Oryx was mad at us.

 Ahtman wrote:
I think that Bungie thought they were doing something positive by putting all the lore online separate from the game but it didn't quite work out to be a good way of handling it. Hopefully Destiny 2 will find a better balance. I kind of get that they were going for an immersive multimedia project I just don't believe it worked as well off paper.

Also the Cabal didn't crash into the Dreadnought because they were worried about the Hive but because they believed the Hive had learned how to permanently kill Guardians and wanted to get that intel. Of course that didn't work out once the Guardians showed up, so they tried to blow the Dreadnought along with the system, which the Guardians also stopped.

And you thought Oryx was mad at us.

If your company builds a reputation for good story telling, then you don't make a new series that consciously steps away from that; much less actively market the game as a story focused game. Plus it's not just a lack of expanded lore. It's a lack of tone, characters, cinematics and all of these things existed in Halo. In fact a lot of games like CoD and Battlefield went further. So I don't see the justification for removing basic story telling elements from your game. The trend has been to either cut the campaign or up the quality. To trim down what was already pretty basic story telling and characters like in Halo 3 or Reach was a really stupid decision.