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The first Horus Heresy book I read was "Legion" and before I read it I never really thought much of the Alpha Legion, while I do like their color scheme and Sindri Myr is one of my favorite characters in the series, plus I do like their original lore, but they just never really interested me that much, but overall I did think they were alright. But after reading Legion they became my Least favorite of the 9 traitor legions and their Primarch Alpharius Omegon became my least favorite of the Traitor Primarchs. Don't get me wrong I thought the Book overall was good, It was the ending that ruined the Legion for me (if you read the book you'll know what I mean) But basically, the Book turned the Alpha Legion from Green Berets in Space, into an army of Scooby-doo villains. What's worse is that the mysteriousness of the Alpha Legion is now a joke of sorts in the community, while it was funny the first few times now it's just getting old. Plus Their new lore just makes them confusing, Loyal-Heretics? WTF? It's especially more confusing when you have characters like Sindri and Carron who are obviously full on Chaos marines. It just confuses me man. While I don't flat out hate the Alpha Legion it's just that compared to the other traitor Legions I like them the least (Though their not my least favorite overall, that honor goes to the White Scars). Overall I just wondering if there are other people out there who think the Alpha Legion lost their coolness after "Legion" as well?

In my opinion the concept of an infiltration and subversion specialist Space Marine force is ridiculous. Why in hell would giant obvious superhuman in super armor armed with mini missile launcher and chainsword be any sort of discrete? They can't hide in plain sight, they are obvious as hell, equipped with grand assault and their entire biology revolves around them being large and powerful. All they can do is be the administrative branch of a real 5th colomn. One that can actually do the gak and gain expertise in the domain. In othr words, the Alpha Legion are a bunch of spy and saboteur commander who never had any experience of infiltrating and spying themselves.

The "aura of mystery" of the Alpha Legion was a lack of information that managed to keep alive the absurd concept that Space Marines can do any sort of super spies and saboteur. Legion didn't "kill" the Alpha Legion, it was doomed from the start.

Here is the problem with smart subtle villains:



There is a good chance if the villain is smarter and more subtle than the heroes, they won't even know what happened until it's too late. This is what makes characters like alpha legion so hard to pull off without coming across as scooby doo bad guys because they have to be defeatable by the heroes of the story. That makes for a challenge in writing such villains, especially with protagonists that are blunt instruments like they in the HH series. So either the heroes get silly lucky time after time, or the villain needs to make some pretty amateurish mistakes for them to have a chance. It takes planning, forethought, and a lot of storytelling skill to pull off competent villains like the alpha legion are supposed to be. Thrawn from star wars EU is my go to for this type of villain done honestly, and that's the reason he is regarded as the best villain of the EU. The problem isn't the bad guys, they are set to the bar of the heroes, the problem is that the heroes in HH are such utter crap that the only way they can triumph is by having cardboard cutouts as their opposition.

I loved that bit of the comic (and movie)

I don't think the Horus Heresy has really done much for the origins of the Legions, in most cases it leaves me underwhelmed and makes these godlike figures out to be absurdly petty and their reasons for engaging in such terrible acts. Add to that some extreme contradictions and awful exaggerations of theme and lots of factions really jump the shark with their Heresy fluff.

GodDamUser wrote:
I loved that bit of the comic (and movie)

When I first read the comic book (it was an embarrassingly long time ago) I had to set the comic down and come back to it later. It was such a good scene that since then I've always rooted for the bad guys, which may be why I like 40k so much and Necrons in particular.

 Grimgold wrote:
When I first read the comic book (it was an embarrassingly long time ago) I had to set the comic down and come back to it later. It was such a good scene that since then I've always rooted for the bad guys, which may be why I like 40k so much and Necrons in particular.

it made me so happy...

The comic does have a terrible beginning though.. and took me a couple of tries to get past that.

I have an insane theory on the Alpha Legion.

That bit about 'infiltration'- what if the Emperor didn't intend them to 'infiltrate' the enemies of the Imperium during the great crusade... but rather... to infiltrate and disrupt the legions if they went rogue?

What if 'joining chaos' is part of their subroutine- after all, they've hosed the Traitor Legions pretty often as well...

The Pinky and the brain theory of alpha legion, that they are actually loyalist, who behave just competently enough to be taken seriously by the other traitor legions, but not well enough to actually do any long term damage to the imperium. It's like the theory that pinky is intentionally sabotaging brains plans to take over the world by appearing to be an incompetent lout.

I'd be ok if that were the answer, but we could use a little more foreshadowing and hinting that is actually the case. Otherwise, it would smack of the retcon like when they changed it so Abaddon didn't fail the prior 12 crusades, but was instead setting up the dominoes for the 13th.

I find the secretly loyal pretend badguys angle pretty stupid, myself. Maybe limited to the heresy it could be compelling. But 10,000 years later? I really hope that never comes up as something they try to write out.

 Yougottapaythetrolltoll wrote:
Sindri Myr is one of my favorite characters in the series

SIIIIINNNDRIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!

I don't know much about the AL, but they are supposed to be infiltrators in that they were supposed to be skilled getting behind enemy lines and disrupt logistics/hit supposedly 'safe' positions.

I did enjoy Praetorian of Dorn, despite the fact that


Sometimes the AL suffers from Ultramarine levels of Plot Armour with their infiltration schtick. There's a short story in the HH series where one Legionnaire does his AL thing on a backwater planet, an agri world if I recall. Since the level of tech is low, it's easy for him to pose as a remembrancer/inquisitor/space marine in blue armour with silver trim and fool the locals.

epronovost wrote:
In my opinion the concept of an infiltration and subversion specialist Space Marine force is ridiculous. Why in hell would giant obvious superhuman in super armor armed with mini missile launcher and chainsword be any sort of discrete? They can't hide in plain sight, they are obvious as hell, equipped with grand assault and their entire biology revolves around them being large and powerful. All they can do is be the administrative branch of a real 5th colomn. One that can actually do the gak and gain expertise in the domain. In othr words, the Alpha Legion are a bunch of spy and saboteur commander who never had any experience of infiltrating and spying themselves.

The "aura of mystery" of the Alpha Legion was a lack of information that managed to keep alive the absurd concept that Space Marines can do any sort of super spies and saboteur. Legion didn't "kill" the Alpha Legion, it was doomed from the start.

I'm confused, I always thought they were supposed to be the guerilla warfare kind of infiltrators, not the espionage kind of infiltrators. Not that those things are always 100% separate, but one is way more plausible for a giant armored transhuman than the other.

I don't see how the AL can be considered loyal in any sense, even if they're still supporting Chaos to eventually defeat them or whatever. They know that in order for Chaos to be destroyed, humanity has to be destroyed (just like Horus would've done if it hadn't been for those meddling Imps who got aboard his ship!), so how can anybody think they're loyal? While their end-goal might still (somehow) be to destroy Chaos, they would have to kill humanity (which is what the Imperium is kinda all about). Their plan is to sink the ship to kill the captain.

 Flanker wrote:
I don't see how the AL can be considered loyal in any sense, even if they're still supporting Chaos to eventually defeat them or whatever. They know that in order for Chaos to be destroyed, humanity has to be destroyed (just like Horus would've done if it hadn't been for those meddling Imps who got aboard his ship!), so how can anybody think they're loyal? While their end-goal might still (somehow) be to destroy Chaos, they would have to kill humanity (which is what the Imperium is kinda all about). Their plan is to sink the ship to kill the captain.

Chaos exists fine without humanity, just ask the Eldar.

It's one of those things that fall flat if the author tries to take it outside the informed trait trope. The author isn't a 7 foot tall giant in heavy power armour capable of infiltrating and masquerading as a 5'7" unarmoured enemy so the author has no clue how to describe how they do it (lol who is and who does?). Such feats can only remain as an informed trait where other character essentially are the ones informing the reader that the AL are covert infiltrators but once the author actually attempts to describe this feat in action it comes off hilariously wrong.

Kinda like an author who isn't a genius and wants to write about a genius solving problems only a genius can solve. The author has virtually no clue how a genius thinks nor dies the author have any clue about problem that only a genius can solve let alone how to solve such a problem if honestly encountered. It's best for the author to just have some other character do a little exposition that mentions so and so is a genius and stay away from trying to portray it.

Funny thing with GW writers is the all try to portray stuff they have no clue about. The joy of science fiction. Heck they don't even research some of the things that could be researched and provided to give some believability to their content.

7 foot tall super humans in power armour as infiltrators was doomed the moment the idea was conceived.

Yep you live in a town looking for infiltrators and the NBA all stars turn up except wider nothing suspicious there, they blend in perfectly.

I don't buy the Alpha Legion as secretly loyal. Just like I don't buy the Unforgiven Dark Angels are secretly traitorous currently (though they could have been during the Horus Hersey).

It is pretty hard to believe that after 10,000 years not a single opportunity to strike when their enemy is weaken. Surely, after one of the more disastrous Black Crusades would have been a prime opportunity would have been a great time for the Alpha Legion to back stab the Traitorous Legions involved.

Anything else, comes off as the double agent Alpha Legion as lazy instead of playing the long, long, looonnng con.

Marxist artist wrote:
Yep you live in a town looking for infiltrators and the NBA all stars turn up except wider nothing suspicious there, they blend in perfectly.

Except AL are the spy masters. They're not the ones doing the spying (except for the infiltrators in other SM legions). They run the spies and agents (like in Legion and Deliverance Lost), hide in the shadows, and collect the information. Similarly, genestealers are able to infiltrate hives and start cults that eventually run those cities and they're aliens.

I liked the explanation someone once gave me about the whole Alpha legion actually good guys thing.

Went something like, their original intent may have been join chaos to prolong the Imperium. But after 10,000 years of it, they have lost sight of their original goals and have since become full blown chaos.

I'm also pretty sure that it was supposed to be guerilla warfare style infiltrators, where they get behind enemy lines. Makes more sense that way for sure.

But long story short yes the alpha legion, like Abaddon, has become a joke due to writers not knowing what to do with their subject matter.

I suggest you look at all of the fluff as stories told in the setting and you can choose what actually to believe and what not to. Imo, the stories make much more sense if you look at them from the perspective of some imperial citizen talking to another imperial citizen about this one thing he heard from his mother's sister's best friends etc etc.

If you look at it from that point of view, why wouldn't some imperial citizen totally believe that these agents of chaos, who supposedly rival the mighty imperiums own great space marines be able to change size and take the place of high up officials? Pretty sure we have more obscure conspiracy theories floating around in our own society

I think the idea of them intentionally dropping and spreading misinformation makes a lot of sense. I think the problem though is them actually infiltrating. Their human lackies should be infiltrating, not their power armored brutes.

TBH them being masters of misinformation makes a lot more sense than James Bond-esque stuff.

I love the secretive Illuminati-like infiltrators aspect of the Alpha Legion. Unfortenately BL does not have writers talented enough to create a good, believable story with such villains.

Therefore, I prefer the angle that is presented in the FW books, where the Alpha Legion are masters of sabotage and disinformation, up to the point that s that no one in the Imperium knows anything for certain about the Alpha Legion and they are shrouded in mysteries.

But at least the Alpha Legion infiltrator part is good to make jokes about. I can't wait to see it revealed that the Emperor was Alpharius all along.

 SpinCycleDreadnought wrote:

I did enjoy Praetorian of Dorn, despite the fact that

Spoiler:

A bunch of AL operatives were buried on Terra before the Heresy and that you're on TERRA for feth's sake! How did the Custodes not come down on them like a tonne of rectangular building things?

The actual Alpha Legionaries were smuggled in over the 5-7 years of the Heresy prior to the book, and the Human's were there before because thats what the Alpha Legion do, they plant cells where ever and as Dorn says in passing they were planning something before the Heresy kicked off, which Legion took place before Istvaan, so they had time. Also the Custodes didn't come down on them hard because the majority of them were, as mentioned in Master of Mankind, fighting a War in the Webway.

 Amanax wrote:
I liked the explanation someone once gave me about the whole Alpha legion actually good guys thing.

Went something like, their original intent may have been join chaos to prolong the Imperium. But after 10,000 years of it, they have lost sight of their original goals and have since become full blown chaos.

I kind of feel like this, too. That perhaps the Emps designed these guys to even infiltrate the ranks of other Chapters and ensure they were doing what they were supposed to do, and disrupt their operations if they went rogue. They -were- the last legion created, and it wouldn't be too far-fetched to believe that their purpose was to ease into the ranks of the other Legions and operate- after all, they seem to be able to 'shapeshift' if they consume the blood of another Astartes or something. I'm not sure where I read that, but that might be why they were all so 'Alpharius'.

The thing is, maybe they went over to Chaos to keep the Traitor Legions from getting too out of hand. After all, I think there's at least two stories where they screwed over their 'allied' Legions (and Emperor only knows what else). And in truth, they're not a unified Legion that we can tell, all of them are operating in warband-like cells independently- a good chunk of them may very well be full-blown Chaos. Another good chunk may genuinely be trying to walk the razor thin line, and I like to think these sorts aren't too rare (after all, I don't use booger-monster spiked-out Chaos edgelord stuff in my army, the closest I have is a few 'reptilian' pauldrons and such).

Hey, I wouldn't be shocked if Alpha Legion cells are actively targeting each other.

Unrelated to quoted text.

I think it's worth stating again that the word 'infiltrate' does not mean 'disguising yourself as a local'. One can slip into a place and collect intelligence, practice their tradecraft, work contacts, and be wearing a clown suit as long as they stay out of sight.

I assume that their activities involve them slipping around and establishing safehouses and then striking at key enemy infrastructure.

Compound this with having psykers in your ranks to obfuscate your guys, the 'infiltration' thing is entirely possible. Remember, in 'Legion', John Grammaticus was shuffling around that city of cultists and passing for members of allied military forces. And the Alpha Legion's Psyker, Shere, was able to muddy up Grammaticus' psyker juju.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

I think it's worth stating again that the word 'infiltrate' does not mean 'disguising yourself as a local'. One can slip into a place and collect intelligence, practice their tradecraft, work contacts, and be wearing a clown suit as long as they stay out of sight.

I assume that their activities involve them slipping around and establishing safehouses and then striking at key enemy infrastructure.

Exactly. An AL marine can hide out in some underworld while he has operatives who make reports. These operatives can be anything from a dock worker who only passes along how many ships are passing through a shipyard (has no actual idea who he's giving this information to or why) to a high-ranking government or military official. He also doesn't need to meet his operatives face-to-face; he can use things like radios, dead drops, or middle men to pass information.

How about that one story from the Space Marine Omnibus where

 Flanker wrote:

Exactly. An AL marine can hide out in some underworld while he has operatives who make reports. These operatives can be anything from a dock worker who only passes along how many ships are passing through a shipyard (has no actual idea who he's giving this information to or why) to a high-ranking government or military official. He also doesn't need to meet his operatives face-to-face; he can use things like radios, dead drops, or middle men to pass information.

A friend of mine also made some interesting comments about the Astartes:

1- Their size has fluctuated a lot. Originally, they were 7 feet tall in Power Armor, then 8 feet, then more and more giant as time went on. It's entirely plausible that the average Imperial citizen sees these badass warriors and describes them as being massive giants, when in fact they're probably 'considerably larger than average' and 'not malnourished'. In our Black Crusade campaign, one of the first things our 'human' party members noticed about our 'Legionary' party members is that they weren't as big as they were described to be (it's left vague how big they actually are).

2- In the era before the Horus Heresy, there were mentions of individuals that were gene-enhanced to be big. Maybe Astartes aren't the only dudes that get that big. I could see a laborer class gene-bred and enhanced to be big and strong in some places, though this would be ridiculously rare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
How about that one story from the Space Marine Omnibus where

Spoiler:

an Alpha Legionnaire destroys an entire Chapter by indoctrinating the entire underhive the Chapter used for recruiting with the use of Chaos-tainted graffiti (and that's not being hyperbolic).

INQUISITOR: "Let us look upon this... heretical text."

ACOLYTE: "Sir, that's a drawing of a penis."

INQUISITOR: "So, this one follows the Dark Prince..."

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Flanker wrote:

Exactly. An AL marine can hide out in some underworld while he has operatives who make reports. These operatives can be anything from a dock worker who only passes along how many ships are passing through a shipyard (has no actual idea who he's giving this information to or why) to a high-ranking government or military official. He also doesn't need to meet his operatives face-to-face; he can use things like radios, dead drops, or middle men to pass information.

A friend of mine also made some interesting comments about the Astartes:

1- Their size has fluctuated a lot. Originally, they were 7 feet tall in Power Armor, then 8 feet, then more and more giant as time went on. It's entirely plausible that the average Imperial citizen sees these badass warriors and describes them as being massive giants, when in fact they're probably 'considerably larger than average' and 'not malnourished'. In our Black Crusade campaign, one of the first things our 'human' party members noticed about our 'Legionary' party members is that they weren't as big as they were described to be (it's left vague how big they actually are).

I always assumed the exaggerated height was a literary tool used to convey the fact that Astartes are almost inhuman and have "godly" origins.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
1- Their size has fluctuated a lot. Originally, they were 7 feet tall in Power Armor, then 8 feet, then more and more giant as time went on. It's entirely plausible that the average Imperial citizen sees these badass warriors and describes them as being massive giants, when in fact they're probably 'considerably larger than average' and 'not malnourished'.

2- In the era before the Horus Heresy, there were mentions of individuals that were gene-enhanced to be big. Maybe Astartes aren't the only dudes that get that big. I could see a laborer class gene-bred and enhanced to be big and strong in some places, though this would be ridiculously rare.

And ofc, in some 40K places humans either grow big and strong - fast - or they don't live long enough to produce children at all. Ogryns are extreme examples of this and nothing a marine could pretend to be or even desire to pretend to be, but your average Catachan trooper is also portrayed as considerably taller and bulkier than regular humans serving in the IG. Maybe a marine could pass as someone from Catachan or another Death World that produces similar mountains of muscle, even if he was a bit bigger than they are on average.

They're now a joke due to BL making them get killed and lose pretty much every battle even though they have the advantage
They're a Legion that was hardly divided when the Heresy broke out, so they were pretty much Full Force
Yet somehow BL writes a Story about them where they attack in a headlong assault, which is the LAST THING they would do

Im pretty sure we all know what happened in Praetorian of Dorn, and we know its a Dumb book that should have never been written

Currently there will be a 40k and 30k book released for Alpha Legion, the 40k book has them fighting SoB (and if the Book takes place Before the Siege of Vraks, they HAVE to win) and the 30k book has them fighting Raven Guard
Hmm i wonder who will win in the 30k book?

It would be good for BL to write something from the perspective of the fighting part of the legion (the majority) with less emphasis on the infiltration side