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So, in the books and what not from black library, SM guys seems to be rather mega powerful. Such as single marines taking on greater daemons, fire teams taking over planets etc. I feel that they are poorly represented on the TT. Now, I am no game designer but I understand balance, but perhaps adjustr the SM squad sizes and raise their stat lines? I mean, for example take a tactical squad, reduce in size to 5-6 total. (Not really removing combat squads but making 5-6 the MAX size for SM) Keep point cost about the same but give them
WS/BS - 5
S/T/I - 5 or 6
W - 1 or 2
A - 2 or 3

Overall the reduced number of marines on the field is compensated with the higher stat line.
And, I would imagine the SM chapters having better plasma tech that doesnt require gets hot. (I lost EVERY SINGLE PLASMA WEAPON GUY in a single shooting phase. I mean, what were the odds of rolling 9x 1's in a row.

It won't happen because Space Marines sell, and as 40K continues to find ways to cram more models on the table - Space Marines need to sell in large numbers. If they were fluff-wise, you'd probably have two squads (or less) of marines in a current 1850 list. That means people wouldn't need to collect 40-50-60-70 models.

They've never been represented accurately, but they sorta/kinda can't be without sacrificing GW's best sellers.

I think you need to learn about the lore of other races.

The average Eldar is in many ways superior to the average space marine, etc.

It's only the crappy guardsmen who are actually much worse than space marines.

In other words, the lore for space marines is like for all races: "dis race best race".

Fluff wise they don't stand a chance against aspect warriors, is that something you're taking into consideration?

I'd disagree a bit with Morgoth. However I think Aspect Warriors are on the level of Space Marines skill-wise, and are likewise a bit under-represented in the game. However, even in the fluff they die relatively easily if caught off guard, etc.

I think it would be fun to see an exaggerated fluff-version of 40K. Give Orks Toughness 5, etc. Give Marines "proper" stats. Give Aspect Warriors Movement 6-7 and BS/WS 5, etc.

Not really. I don't think movie marines are a good idea, but GW needs to do a better job at making the more basic marines useful and not liabilities

Eldar though, as far as aspect warriors are, have devoted hundreds of years to ONE aspect of war, thus the aspect warrior concept. SM are very generalized overall. I know we have devastators, assault marines etc, but they are still techinically marines in training. I look at Tactical Marines. They can do anything, but are not as good as someone specialized. I mean even whole chapters specialize in things, such as ImpFist and siege breaking and what not.

The individual marine should be substantially stronger than say a guardsman. Orks are about on par with Marines if memory serves right for the fluff. I think eldar stat lines look fine as a base, but perhaps increase certain Aspects with better stats? Like striking scorpions getting a much higher WS than BS, and reapers getting the opposite. (Bear in mind, I have never played eldar, so my knowledge is limited.)

No. There is fluff marines.
Then there is tabletop balance marines.
That is the simple version.

Then there is the inconsistent fluff, where sometimes a single bolt shell will blow a fully armoured marine in to red paste, and other times a whole clip of bolts will just shred some of the armour off.

Simple version still stands though.

In general this is a product of 3 problems.

1.) GW failing to make use of the entire stat range. Almost all infantry in the game is WS/BS 3/4 and S/T 3/4. We have almost nothing that is S/T 1 or 2. So S/T 4 don't feel special because they are pretty common.

2.) Part of this is due to using a D6 on the statline because it makes it hard to differentiate between units. A BS2 model hits 1/3rd of the time, then we jump up by ~17% for each stat increase. If we used say a D10, you could have marines be BS 6 to hit 60% of the time, and say Orks be BS 2 to only hit 20% of the time, with IG hiting 40% at BS4. Right now if we wanted to create separation it becomes difficult unless we are wildly re-costing everything. If stats went to say 12 and we used D12s you could be even more differentiated.

3.) The sheer number of marine armies in the game, makes them feel less special. Right now we have, BA, DA, SW, GK, SM, CSM, Deathwatch. So 7 Factions (not accounting for the various marine chapters in the regular marine book, or the different CSM supplements) That are all Marines with Marine stats. Which means that marines don't stand out as special because they are basically the average/standard by which everything else is measured. If most armies were S/T 3 or lower, then S/T 4 would seem more special.

The space marines on the board are just fine, its the imperial propaganda you should doubt.

Breng77 wrote:
In general this is a product of 3 problems.

1.) GW failing to make use of the entire stat range. Almost all infantry in the game is WS/BS 3/4 and S/T 3/4. We have almost nothing that is S/T 1 or 2. So S/T 4 don't feel special because they are pretty common.

2.) Part of this is due to using a D6 on the statline because it makes it hard to differentiate between units. A BS2 model hits 1/3rd of the time, then we jump up by ~17% for each stat increase. If we used say a D10, you could have marines be BS 6 to hit 60% of the time, and say Orks be BS 2 to only hit 20% of the time, with IG hiting 40% at BS4. Right now if we wanted to create separation it becomes difficult unless we are wildly re-costing everything. If stats went to say 12 and we used D12s you could be even more differentiated.

3.) The sheer number of marine armies in the game, makes them feel less special. Right now we have, BA, DA, SW, GK, SM, CSM, Deathwatch. So 7 Factions (not accounting for the various marine chapters in the regular marine book, or the different CSM supplements) That are all Marines with Marine stats. Which means that marines don't stand out as special because they are basically the average/standard by which everything else is measured. If most armies were S/T 3 or lower, then S/T 4 would seem more special.

My sentiments exactly! Which is why I'm making my own tabletop wargame that uses d10s and a more diverse range of stats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
In general this is a product of 3 problems.

1.) GW failing to make use of the entire stat range. Almost all infantry in the game is WS/BS 3/4 and S/T 3/4. We have almost nothing that is S/T 1 or 2. So S/T 4 don't feel special because they are pretty common.

2.) Part of this is due to using a D6 on the statline because it makes it hard to differentiate between units. A BS2 model hits 1/3rd of the time, then we jump up by ~17% for each stat increase. If we used say a D10, you could have marines be BS 6 to hit 60% of the time, and say Orks be BS 2 to only hit 20% of the time, with IG hiting 40% at BS4. Right now if we wanted to create separation it becomes difficult unless we are wildly re-costing everything. If stats went to say 12 and we used D12s you could be even more differentiated.

3.) The sheer number of marine armies in the game, makes them feel less special. Right now we have, BA, DA, SW, GK, SM, CSM, Deathwatch. So 7 Factions (not accounting for the various marine chapters in the regular marine book, or the different CSM supplements) That are all Marines with Marine stats. Which means that marines don't stand out as special because they are basically the average/standard by which everything else is measured. If most armies were S/T 3 or lower, then S/T 4 would seem more special.

My sentiments exactly! Which is why I'm making my own tabletop wargame that uses d10s and a more diverse range of stats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/723803.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CplPunishment wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
In general this is a product of 3 problems.

1.) GW failing to make use of the entire stat range. Almost all infantry in the game is WS/BS 3/4 and S/T 3/4. We have almost nothing that is S/T 1 or 2. So S/T 4 don't feel special because they are pretty common.

2.) Part of this is due to using a D6 on the statline because it makes it hard to differentiate between units. A BS2 model hits 1/3rd of the time, then we jump up by ~17% for each stat increase. If we used say a D10, you could have marines be BS 6 to hit 60% of the time, and say Orks be BS 2 to only hit 20% of the time, with IG hiting 40% at BS4. Right now if we wanted to create separation it becomes difficult unless we are wildly re-costing everything. If stats went to say 12 and we used D12s you could be even more differentiated.

3.) The sheer number of marine armies in the game, makes them feel less special. Right now we have, BA, DA, SW, GK, SM, CSM, Deathwatch. So 7 Factions (not accounting for the various marine chapters in the regular marine book, or the different CSM supplements) That are all Marines with Marine stats. Which means that marines don't stand out as special because they are basically the average/standard by which everything else is measured. If most armies were S/T 3 or lower, then S/T 4 would seem more special.

My sentiments exactly! Which is why I'm making my own tabletop wargame that uses d10s and a more diverse range of stats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
In general this is a product of 3 problems.

1.) GW failing to make use of the entire stat range. Almost all infantry in the game is WS/BS 3/4 and S/T 3/4. We have almost nothing that is S/T 1 or 2. So S/T 4 don't feel special because they are pretty common.

2.) Part of this is due to using a D6 on the statline because it makes it hard to differentiate between units. A BS2 model hits 1/3rd of the time, then we jump up by ~17% for each stat increase. If we used say a D10, you could have marines be BS 6 to hit 60% of the time, and say Orks be BS 2 to only hit 20% of the time, with IG hiting 40% at BS4. Right now if we wanted to create separation it becomes difficult unless we are wildly re-costing everything. If stats went to say 12 and we used D12s you could be even more differentiated.

3.) The sheer number of marine armies in the game, makes them feel less special. Right now we have, BA, DA, SW, GK, SM, CSM, Deathwatch. So 7 Factions (not accounting for the various marine chapters in the regular marine book, or the different CSM supplements) That are all Marines with Marine stats. Which means that marines don't stand out as special because they are basically the average/standard by which everything else is measured. If most armies were S/T 3 or lower, then S/T 4 would seem more special.

My sentiments exactly! Which is why I'm making my own tabletop wargame that uses d10s and a more diverse range of stats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HERE it is:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/723803.page

I can't wait for my grey Knights to be a 5 model army in 40k, and to see an average scout tie in an arm wrestling compitition with a carnifex, after beating a warboss.

Fluff and crunch are different, marines on the table can use a small update, mainly because marines kinda suck on the table. I'd be more worried about making factions play how they should play in the fluff (IE: tyranids not spamming flyrants) not making an army that arguable plays 'correctly' seem even fluffier

Problem is with rules the way they are, differentiation between troops doesn't really matter. Everything dies more or less the same and there aren't drastic statistical differences in how normal troop units play, the only thing that really matters is how many dice you can roll.

as said D6 system to little varience. also sounds like you should just play custodies and pretend they are space marines.

They had to make things work on a game that has balance and nobody wants to face 40-50 guardsman per space marine or 20 per ork boy. hack to scale a librarian or single terminator squad might be your whole army. in smaller games gray knights might only have like half of a space marine on the board.

they basically said marines are the tough ones with good armor. and they do have great armor the problem is in a d6 system they still fail 33.3% of saves so volume knocks em out.

think of it this way some armies were rounded down space marines being one of them and elder being another while others were rounded up see guard tyranids

Honestly, I think the lore kind of got ahead of itself in relationship to the actual game. You say you want super strong marines capable of the last stands they do in the books and lore, but do you really want 5 marines vs 1500 points of orks? It would be boring as all hell. Think about how much people play pure deathwatch armies or grey knights. Very little model count doesn't lead itself well to tactical fun gameplay in a game like 40k as opposed to smaller skirmish games.

I'm sick of hearing about such and such's invincible chapter master who never dies and always 'retreats tactically' when his army gets tabled. Its like playing against those weirdos who roleplay commissars. The plot armor is getting a little obnoxious when it comes to marines. If an ork was wearing power armor, he'd be just as strong.

This all depends on what you mean.

If you mean in terms of relative power, Space Marines (ignoring the bazillion spinoff codexes they have, yes this includes the Chaos Space Marines too) are among the minority. Only Sororitas and Necrons can get easy 3+ armor across the board (meanwhile Scatbikes would be the exception in an Eldar Army) and their guns can reliably wound almost any enemy. The bolter can also ignore the standard armor of most enemy races.

Another thing most people forget is that a 5+ armor is suppose to represent heavy infantry armor, while 4+ is suppose to be extreme protection (think the Bulldozer from Payday 2 compared to the padded cops) and 3+ would be equivalent of tank armor. 2+ armor is suppose to represent something that is either supernatural in physical defense, or is so thick that it can protect someone from explosive decompression (being essentially space ship armor). This is more evident in older editions where Eldar had the ability to run during the shooting phase to represent their unnatural agility in being able to wear what is essentially heavy infantry armor and still move faster than most other race's soldiers. Going by this criteria, Space Marines are exactly as represented on the tabletop as they are in fluff; their guns can penetrate heavy infantry armor like there's no tomorrow. They shoot better and hit better than most other troops of a similar rank, and they're wearing tank armor.

BUT

With the constant escalation of wargear power, poorly thought out units, Space Marines becoming so widespread that every single player will own some form of a space marine army (if not a dozen different armies) and lack of focus on what was suppose to be more populous factions in the fluff, it ends up completely skewing the perspective. The basic space marine becomes the standard infantry, which makes all the supposidly "elite heavy" infantry of other races seem like cannon fodder. Not at all helping is the fact that other races are getting more increasingly space marine-esque troopers, which further reinforces their status as "the baseline".

So, if your perspective is based around the fluff, Space Marines are pretty well represented, but only on a very technical sense when comparing fluff descriptions to their counterparts in terms of scale. If your perspective is based on the actual game meta, then hell no. Space Marines are nowhere near the invincible monsters they're portrayed as.

They're fine as they are. Except for the lack of Night Vision (which should be a lot more widespread, in my opinion)

Space Marines on the tabletop are fine, they are just rarely fighting against "goons" like in the lore. Instead they're fighting against the crème de la crème of other faction armies, because that's how people build armies.

But if you want to see Space Marines act like in the fluff, shoot at cultists in the open, and then charge them to wipe them out. And that's how they work in the fluff. Tactical Squads can Roflstomp guardsmen and the like. They'll usually crush Eldar Guardians as well.

Aspect Warriors are about the equal of Tac Marines, just more specialized, both in fluff and on tabletop. It works out.


If you want better marines, use Sternguard.

GW's portrayal of Space Marines gets ever more powerful every few years. Going back to RT, Marines werent portrayed as anything near as powerful as they are now, and some of the fluff stuff is so ridiculous now it breaks the suspension of disbelief in like two seconds. This makes translation into gameplay rather difficult, particularly for moving large numbers of model kits.

Yeah I have a problem with this as well.

Lore wise half a company of marines would change the tide of a war. But marine players bring two of those regularly.

Talking about tabletop, they are fine. Tabletop can't equilibrate marines with the Fluff they have now.

One of the problems that people has comparing marines against other races from a lore perspective is that they take them as a "different race"


Marines are part of the Imperium. They are the very, VERY best (Ok, Custodes and Grey Knights are even better, but those take armies for breakfast) and when you compare a Orc boy with the "Human Army" you can't compare them with the Marines and say "they are equivalent because they are both the basic troops": No, the basic troop for the Imperium is the Guardsman.

One of the problems in the fluff is the fact that Marines are ULTRA powerfull, but the others armies need their equivalent ultra powerfull things to stand a chance, but then thats translated in that the other armies have ultra powerfull anti marines units but in much bigger numbers.

But well. Lore is narrative, and in narrative the heroes win so this is a empty debate really. For example, you have Aspect Warriors that train for hundres of years or Tyranid Warriors that are rumored to be make taking space marines genes.

But you have way way less marines than Tyranid Warriors or Aspect Warriors, and individually your standard marine will be way way superior to those two examples. (That doesn't mean that it will win always. Fights don't work that way, just because you are superior doesn't mean, in a narrative perspective, that you are gonna win always. The situation, context, etc... of the battle, all maters)

In the past I played a narrative campaing with 5 friends. They played with "Fluffy" marines. Everyone had 1 marine that was buffed to cost itself like 600-700 points. I was the "master", and actually it was ultra fun to see those 5 Deathwatch marines kill hordes of Tyranids, Orcs and Dark Eldars jumping from campaing scenario to campaing scenario at the same time they where improving themselves. Two ended the campaing with Terminator Armours and one with a bionic leg and arm to replace the original ones, that he lost after blowing himself with a plasma grenade to kill a Tyranid Carnifex.

But obviusly, GW can't live without selling tons of marines.

Its REALLY going to be hard to make a fair fluff based stats based on the fact that a lot of the imperium gets hard core plot armor.

It would be nice if it was more granular but that aint happening any time soon.

 Galas wrote:

But well. Lore is narrative, and in narrative the heroes win so this is a empty debate really. For example, you have Aspect Warriors that train for hundres of years or Tyranid Warriors that are rumored to be make taking space marines genes.

But you have way way less marines than Tyranid Warriors or Aspect Warriors, and individually your standard marine will be way way superior to those two examples.

Are Aspect Warriors and Tyranid Warriors much worse than a marine in common lore?

Full disclosure, I haven't read many BL publications as of late. I have no idea the sorts of stories that are in there. I'd also guess that in a lot of those stories there are plenty of marine casualties, it's just that we don't read much about them because they aren't the 'hero' that the story is about.

Primary issue is that certain units are just garbage. For example, I think Sternguard, Vanguard, and Honour Guard are actually pretty decent elite units. Scouts and Bikes function as intended. Assault Marines are...eh, but need Chainswords to do something else besides just being a melee weapon. Librarians and Chapter Masters do good work.

It's the legacy units that have the primary issues. Tactical Marines are garbage for example not because of the stats, but because they have no ability to suit up for even one target. Nobody wants heavy weapons in a squad like that. People can proclaim Combat Squad all they want, but...i can just use another Troop slot to do that. Terminators were never the tanks that they were proclaimed to be in fluff, and worse yet is that they have gak all in terms of offense. Chaplains are just meh overall.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Are Aspect Warriors and Tyranid Warriors much worse than a marine in common lore?

Full disclosure, I haven't read many BL publications as of late. I have no idea the sorts of stories that are in there. I'd also guess that in a lot of those stories there are plenty of marine casualties, it's just that we don't read much about them because they aren't the 'hero' that the story is about.

In most tales I would say these 3 are all on par.. just different

Every where you look you will find stories of a single marine/aspect/warrior cutting sick and murding pretty much a full squad of one of the others one their own.. Only to be cut down by the hero of the story

The issue is that the Fluff can never be equal to the TT.. because the scales are completely different..

Normally Marines are superior to Aspect Warriors (And I'm talking very generalistic here. Veteran Aspect Warriors probably will be superior to the "new" marines) but because, yeah, Aspect Warriors have hundreds of years of training, but Marines have hundreds of years of training AND all the OP equipement and Biological upgrades that Space Marines have. And they are less in number that the Eldar's Aspect Warriors.

But as GodDamUser says, they thend to be equivalent, and in one history you have a Space Marine Sergeant that kills 12 Howling Banshee in a battle and one Aspect Warrior killing space marines at dozens.

The problems with marines is that to be correctly represented as people said... just think about the Cinematic of Dawn of War 1. A dreadnoguth, a Tank and a full squad of marines being killed by a bunch of normal boyz.

If the cinematic was fluffy you'll see the same number of marines with the Dreadnought killings hundreds of Boyz before beginning to take losses.

It also depends on who is writing the fluff. The biggest flaw with fluff-based arguments.

Martel732 wrote:
It also depends on who is writing the fluff. The biggest flaw with fluff-based arguments.

This is huge. Also the perspective of the story. Abnett for instance has written marines as simple cannon fodder for the first Tanith heavy weapon to be brought to bear or simple concentrated lasgun fire, and then later as demigods able to subjugate the entirety of a downed Dark Eldar cruiser's crew and warriors with a single lone Marine as literal standard procedure. Hell, in the Ultramarines movie, Chaos Marines get mown down as literal cannon fodder by simple boltguns that all appear to be S6 AP2 in the hands of the Ultramarines.

 Galas wrote:
Talking about tabletop, they are fine. Tabletop can't equilibrate marines with the Fluff they have now.

One of the problems that people has comparing marines against other races from a lore perspective is that they take them as a "different race"


Marines are part of the Imperium. They are the very, VERY best (Ok, Custodes and Grey Knights are even better, but those take armies for breakfast) and when you compare a Orc boy with the "Human Army" you can't compare them with the Marines and say "they are equivalent because they are both the basic troops": No, the basic troop for the Imperium is the Guardsman.

One of the problems in the fluff is the fact that Marines are ULTRA powerfull, but the others armies need their equivalent ultra powerfull things to stand a chance, but then thats translated in that the other armies have ultra powerfull anti marines units but in much bigger numbers.

But well. Lore is narrative, and in narrative the heroes win so this is a empty debate really. For example, you have Aspect Warriors that train for hundres of years or Tyranid Warriors that are rumored to be make taking space marines genes.

But you have way way less marines than Tyranid Warriors or Aspect Warriors, and individually your standard marine will be way way superior to those two examples. (That doesn't mean that it will win always. Fights don't work that way, just because you are superior doesn't mean, in a narrative perspective, that you are gonna win always. The situation, context, etc... of the battle, all maters) .

You're living proof that most people arguing here know nothing about other codex lore.

There aren't more Aspect Warriors than there are marines, and they are by fluff strictly superior to space marines in their own path.

They are not accurately represented but I don´t care. This is a wargame and not RPG.

According to my Google-Fu, GW published the ruleset "Space Marines on celluloid" in WD 300.

http://forums.tauonline.org/general-40k/40186-looking-rules-movie-marines.html

These rules were intended for friendly play only and not tournaments. A single tactical squad would routinely face off vs. an entire army. Well, I think these rules would fit better a SOB squad because nowadays ten sisters cost as much as a whole force.

Have a look for yourselves, if these "movie marines" strike your fancy:

HQ
1 Space Marine Sergeant

Elite
0-1 Space Marine Hero

Troops
0-6 Space Marines

Fast Attack
0-1 Rhino or Razorback

Heavy Support
0-1 SpaceMarine with flamer
0-1 Space Marine with missile launcher

Special
0-10 Stunt Doubles


Sergeant (200 pts)
WS 9/BS 5/S 6/ T 6/ W 4/I 6/A 5/Ld 10
The sergeant is equipped with a boltpistol, a chainsword, a combatknife and grenades.

Hero (150 pts)
WS 7/BS 5/S 6/ T 6/ W 3/I 5/A 4/Ld 9
The Hero is equipped with a bolter, a combatknife and grenades.

Space Marine (100 pts)
WS 7/BS 5/S 6/ T 6/ W 3/I 5/A 4/Ld 9
The Marine is equipped with a bolter, a combatknife and grenades.

Space Marine with missile launcher (250 pts)
WS 7/BS 5/S 6/ T 6/ W 3/I 5/A 4/Ld 9
The Marine is equipped with a missile launcher (with super krak- and super frak missiles), a combat knife and grenades.

Space MArine with flamer (170 pts)
WS 7/BS 5/S 6/ T 6/ W 3/I 5/A 4/Ld 9
The Marine is ewuipped with a flamer, a combatknife and grenades.

Rhino (130 pts)
Font 13/Side 12/Rear 11/ BS 5
Type: tank
Transport: 10
The Rhino is equipped with smoke launchers, an additional stormbolter and extra plating.

Razorback (200 pts)
Font 13/Side 12/Rear 11/ BS 5
Type: tank
Transport: 10
The Rhino is equipped with smoke launchers, a twinlinked lasercannon and extra plating.


Weapons special rules

Chainsword: The chainsword counts as power weapon. Additionally a model with a chainsword doubles the value of his wounds for calculating unit strength in melee.

Combat knife: Attacks with combat knives count as rending.

Bolt pistol: Range 24"/Strength 6/ AP 4/ Assault 4, rending

Bolter: Range 36"/Strength 6/ AP 4/ Assault 4, rending

Storm Bolter: Range 36"/Strength 6/ AP 4/ Assault 8, rending

Grenades: Range 6"/Strength 8/ AP 3/ Assault 1, blast

Flamer: Range 24"/Strength special/ AP special/ Assault 1, template

[u]Flamer vs. non-vehicle units:
Each model touched by the template will be hit on 4+ and wounded on 4+. If a 6 is rolled to wound it ignores armor saves.
Because the burning promethium sticks to it´s victims every model hit but not killed has to pass an armor save at the beginning of each of it´s turns. If succesfully passed, the fire is extinguished, if not the model suffers another wound.
The flamer negates cover.

Flamer vs. vehicle units:
Against vehicles the flamer has no effect, except open-topped vehicles, where an penetrating hit is scored automatically, which can not be modified by cover or fast movement.


Missile Launcher:
Super-frag missile: Range 60"/Strength 6/AP 4/Assault 2, 5"-template
Super-krak missile: Range 60"/Strength 10/AP 1/Assault 2


Lascannon: Range 60"/Strength 10/AP 1/Heavy 1

The lascannon fires in a straight line and hits every model in it´s path, one after another until it does fail to penetrate a vehicles armor, or a non-vehicle model survives the hit. For each hit vehicle/ monstrous creature the strength of the laserbeam is reduced by one. Models wounded by a lascannon are instantly killed, regardless of the actual toughness. Armor penetration is rolled with 2d6 (choose the higher roll)+ Strength.


Celluloid- special rules

One-man-army: Each model in the army counts as a separate unit. Any combination of models may ride the same transport, limited only by it´s capacity. Models may embark or disembark while others stay in or outside the vehicle, just as the player wishes to.
All Space Marines are subject to "And They Shall Know No Fear".

"Come and get it": Whenever a Space Marine is killed due to the "no retreat"-rule (Rulebook, page 48), he will rise a last time to take as many foes of the empire with him as possible.
He may immediately choose to either fire his bolter or his bolt pistol (roll to hit and wound as usual) or to pull out a grenade and die laughing (center the template on the space marine).

Fleet of Foot: All Space Marines may use the fleet- special rule.

Move through cover

Infiltrators: All infantry models may infiltrate.

Auto-sensors: Each Marine counts as having an auspex.

Power Armor: The power armor grants all Space Marines a 3+ armor save and a 4+ invulnerable save. Against hits that do not ignore the armor save, it may be re-rolled once. This only applies for armor saves.

The Playwright hates us: All the above rules only apply for Space Marines from this celuloid-list. Identical weapons and wargear the opponent might use follows the normal rules.

Stunt Double: Each Space Marine Celluloid-army may include 0-10 stunt doubles for 10 pts each, that take up no slot in the FOC.
Before rolling for an armor save, an invulnerable save, or a cover save the Marine may call for a stunt double, that will take the roll instead. Should it fail the double is removed as a casuality and the Marine remains unharmed. If the double passes the test and survives just to wander of and get a well earned beverage. It is removed from the game and may not be used again.



Note: I don´t have access to this WD, so there might be some minor mistakes concerning the rules. Though as a whole they sound right because they are familiar to me. IMO the Flamer has some issues. Perhaps somebody on this forum could enlighten us in this regard.