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moving foward now that he is Lord Commander once again

I honestly think he will, the Emperor had too many faults, for a myraid of reasons, i think Roboute is just a naturally better leader

Even Curze would've been a better leader then his father (apparently he's pretty fair handed when ruling a civilization).

He has alot more experience than than any current imperial leaders. Several centuries at the very least.
Maybe 500years and a good record.

He is tough but also fair handed and thinks about bigger picture.
He has a chance to be a better leader anyway.

The big E's biggest failing was hubris.

(Unsurprisng, since apparently the basic heresy story "lore" was lifted from Milton's Paradise Lost).

His pride in his "children" being so "perfect" did not allow him to see how flawed they actually were.

Next to that, your average flat rock would probably have been a better leader.

Probably and it's likely thanks to Fulgrim's little trick in gathering storm and his own freak out over what humanity became after the heresy. It's clear after all he went through both before and after his kinda death, he's as humble, knowledgeable and ready as anyone could be. All the test's he went though to get to earth actually probably helped him. I like the idea that his chat with the emperor was nothing but silence. He finally had to accept that dad is gone, the world sucks but his work isn't done yet and as his last confirmed loyalist son still breathing, he has to make things better.

Got home, went to dad's house.
Went to the office and fired all the employee's he didn't like.
Hired some new folks.

IoM under new management.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chromedog wrote:
The big E's biggest failing was hubris.

(Unsurprisng, since apparently the basic heresy story "lore" was lifted from Milton's Paradise Lost).

His pride in his "children" being so "perfect" did not allow him to see how flawed they actually were.

Next to that, your average flat rock would probably have been a better leader.

His biggest flaw if anything was he thought he had tracked down the source of chaos, to belief in imaginary things, when it is actually strength of emotion.

Pretty sure the BigE knew exactly what Chaos was and wasn't. Just didn't realize how vulnerable his kids were to it

Guilliman is a doer. He'll be better than anyone in the last 8k years for sure.

Guilliman had no father. He's a creation.

Decent quote on RG:


He is handsome, in a plain way. He is handsome the way a regent on an old coin is handsome, like a good sword is handsome. He is not handsome like a ritual weapon, the way Fulgrim is. He is not angelic, like Sanguinius...

There is a dutiful line to his jaw, like his good brother Dorn. They share a nobility. There is the great strength of Ferrus and the durability of Mortarion. There is, sometimes, the rogue glint of the Khan in his eyes, or the solemnity of the Lion. In the architecture of his nose and brow there is, many claim, the energy and triumph of Horus Lupercal. There is none of the bitterness that shadows Corax, or the persecuted despair that haunts poor Konrad. There is never any of the deliberate mystery that obscures Alpharius or Magnus and he is more open than that buried soul Vulkan... He never displays the pitch of fury found in Angron, nor do his eyes ever ignite with the psychotic gleam of Russ...

He is a high achiever. He knows this about himself. Sometimes it feels like a fault that he has to excuse to his brothers, but then he feels guilty for making excuses... He writes a great deal. He codifies everything. Information is power. Technical theory is victory... He uses a stylus by choice, recording in his own handwriting.

He has been writing notes on T'Vanti war practices for seventeen minutes, but he has still noted and marked fifteen hundred data bulletins and updates that have tracked across the secondary screens to his left. He sees and reconciles everything. Information is victory.

 Lobukia wrote:
Decent quote on RG:


He is handsome, in a plain way. He is handsome the way a regent on an old coin is handsome, like a good sword is handsome. He is not handsome like a ritual weapon, the way Fulgrim is. He is not angelic, like Sanguinius...

There is a dutiful line to his jaw, like his good brother Dorn. They share a nobility. There is the great strength of Ferrus and the durability of Mortarion. There is, sometimes, the rogue glint of the Khan in his eyes, or the solemnity of the Lion. In the architecture of his nose and brow there is, many claim, the energy and triumph of Horus Lupercal. There is none of the bitterness that shadows Corax, or the persecuted despair that haunts poor Konrad. There is never any of the deliberate mystery that obscures Alpharius or Magnus and he is more open than that buried soul Vulkan... He never displays the pitch of fury found in Angron, nor do his eyes ever ignite with the psychotic gleam of Russ...

He is a high achiever. He knows this about himself. Sometimes it feels like a fault that he has to excuse to his brothers, but then he feels guilty for making excuses... He writes a great deal. He codifies everything. Information is power. Technical theory is victory... He uses a stylus by choice, recording in his own handwriting.

He has been writing notes on T'Vanti war practices for seventeen minutes, but he has still noted and marked fifteen hundred data bulletins and updates that have tracked across the secondary screens to his left. He sees and reconciles everything. Information is victory.

God, when Abnett's on point, he's on fire. Great book, good read, good audio drama to listen to.

And ofc he will be a better leader then The Emperor, Number 13 is a doer. He gets gak done. Heresy era Ultramarines kick ass. I wonder in the new fluff if there will put in any teasters about 2 and 11 Legions and the Ultrabingers absorbing them? " The nu-marines he created swelled the ranks of the decimated Ultra marine chapter. He could breed a Legionion no time with this Archotech he found, like that time he absorb- no a Vow is a Vow 10,000 years changes nothing"

Girlyman is not in charge, he just took over the lords of Terra's job basically, the Big E is still in charge, girly is just the new upper management

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Girlyman is not in charge, he just took over the lords of Terra's job basically, the Big E is still in charge, girly is just the new upper management

Yes because the Emperor has had direct control for the past 10,000 years......... and hasn't actually just been a rotting corpse


>_>

He might be a better actual leader than the Emperor, as in better at managing the Imperium, but we can't really be sure of that. Why? Because the Emperor never sctually got around to ruling the Imperium. First he was busy liberating Terra, then conquering the galaxy and then working on the webway. He actually probably would have been a great leader, seeing as he was focused on enlightenment and learning. And with the webway, no-one would have had to use the warp and Chaos wouldn't be such a problem. Honestly I think the Emperor would have made an amazing ruler of the peaceful galaxy, and don't forget he DID conquer most of it. If the Emperor hadn't left for Terra, Horus wouldn't have rebelled and everything would still be good.


Don't forget, questioning the Emperor's divine right to rule is Heresy and will result in purging.

Ember -][-

Yeah probably, though hindsight's a bitch.

He has an uphill struggle against 10000 years of decay, superstition, mistrust, beauracracy, and the Ecclesiarchy.

BUT he has 3 things in his favour:

He's done it before, with the restructuring of the Imperium after the Heresy.

He has the support of all the Astartes.

He has the support of his dad.

 jhe90 wrote:
He has alot more experience than than any current imperial leaders. Several centuries at the very least.
Maybe 500years and a good record.

He is tough but also fair handed and thinks about bigger picture.
He has a chance to be a better leader anyway.

I agree to an extent. The Emperor saw the big picture for what it was and certainly played the long game to reach it's end. The problem was, in my opinion, that he concentrated on the specific that would get him there and lost sight of everything else. If he had not been so focused on the webway project at the time of the heresy and taken control himself there might have been a different outcome. Or say that he never left the crusade until it had reached a reasonable end then the Primarchs might have been content. Horus resentment started with Ullanor. There would still be Primarchs that would eventually fall or be removed from the picture but they would not have been unified.

 chromedog wrote:
The big E's biggest failing was hubris.

(Unsurprisng, since apparently the basic heresy story "lore" was lifted from Milton's Paradise Lost).

His pride in his "children" being so "perfect" did not allow him to see how flawed they actually were.

Next to that, your average flat rock would probably have been a better leader.

Reading ADBs Master of Mankind seems to put the Emperor's attitude to the Primarchs differently. He never saw them as his children. They were his creations, his tools to achieve unification of mankind. He had invested so much to create the Primarchs and a broken tool is better than no tool. But he let some get away with things that should have been nipped in the bud a lot sooner and maybe was too hard on some.

I think the Emperor was a great leader, he managed to unite Terra and reunite countless worlds. He lost sight of the important things and concentrated too much on the endgame, being the webway project. I'm not sure how his 'sons' would have reacted if they had found out about it before the heresy had broken out.

I think that Guilliman has the mind to do it and it perhaps more level headed then the Emperor. I think the Emperor singular vision on what humanity needed was a flaw and that Guilliman is able to see that it's just not humanity that will win the day. Guilliman has more scope I think. Practical and Theoretical I think it is.

 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Decent quote on RG:


He is handsome, in a plain way. He is handsome the way a regent on an old coin is handsome, like a good sword is handsome. He is not handsome like a ritual weapon, the way Fulgrim is. He is not angelic, like Sanguinius...

There is a dutiful line to his jaw, like his good brother Dorn. They share a nobility. There is the great strength of Ferrus and the durability of Mortarion. There is, sometimes, the rogue glint of the Khan in his eyes, or the solemnity of the Lion. In the architecture of his nose and brow there is, many claim, the energy and triumph of Horus Lupercal. There is none of the bitterness that shadows Corax, or the persecuted despair that haunts poor Konrad. There is never any of the deliberate mystery that obscures Alpharius or Magnus and he is more open than that buried soul Vulkan... He never displays the pitch of fury found in Angron, nor do his eyes ever ignite with the psychotic gleam of Russ...

He is a high achiever. He knows this about himself. Sometimes it feels like a fault that he has to excuse to his brothers, but then he feels guilty for making excuses... He writes a great deal. He codifies everything. Information is power. Technical theory is victory... He uses a stylus by choice, recording in his own handwriting.

He has been writing notes on T'Vanti war practices for seventeen minutes, but he has still noted and marked fifteen hundred data bulletins and updates that have tracked across the secondary screens to his left. He sees and reconciles everything. Information is victory.

God, when Abnett's on point, he's on fire. Great book, good read, good audio drama to listen to.

And ofc he will be a better leader then The Emperor, Number 13 is a doer. He gets gak done. Heresy era Ultramarines kick ass. I wonder in the new fluff if there will put in any teasters about 2 and 11 Legions and the Ultrabingers absorbing them? " The nu-marines he created swelled the ranks of the decimated Ultra marine chapter. He could breed a Legionion no time with this Archotech he found, like that time he absorb- no a Vow is a Vow 10,000 years changes nothing"

Actually the author behind the quote in "First Heretic suggesting the Ultramarines absorbed the 2 lost Legions has said that he mostly intended that to be jelous bitter whispers by the word bearers. (in other words likely false) which if that is the case makes what Gulliman acheived with the Ultramarines even MORE impressive

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
He has alot more experience than than any current imperial leaders. Several centuries at the very least.
Maybe 500years and a good record.

He is tough but also fair handed and thinks about bigger picture.
He has a chance to be a better leader anyway.

I agree to an extent. The Emperor saw the big picture for what it was and certainly played the long game to reach it's end. The problem was, in my opinion, that he concentrated on the specific that would get him there and lost sight of everything else. If he had not been so focused on the webway project at the time of the heresy and taken control himself there might have been a different outcome. Or say that he never left the crusade until it had reached a reasonable end then the Primarchs might have been content. Horus resentment started with Ullanor. There would still be Primarchs that would eventually fall or be removed from the picture but they would not have been unified.

 chromedog wrote:
The big E's biggest failing was hubris.

(Unsurprisng, since apparently the basic heresy story "lore" was lifted from Milton's Paradise Lost).

His pride in his "children" being so "perfect" did not allow him to see how flawed they actually were.

Next to that, your average flat rock would probably have been a better leader.

Reading ADBs Master of Mankind seems to put the Emperor's attitude to the Primarchs differently. He never saw them as his children. They were his creations, his tools to achieve unification of mankind. He had invested so much to create the Primarchs and a broken tool is better than no tool. But he let some get away with things that should have been nipped in the bud a lot sooner and maybe was too hard on some.

I think the Emperor was a great leader, he managed to unite Terra and reunite countless worlds. He lost sight of the important things and concentrated too much on the endgame, being the webway project. I'm not sure how his 'sons' would have reacted if they had found out about it before the heresy had broken out.

I think that Guilliman has the mind to do it and it perhaps more level headed then the Emperor. I think the Emperor singular vision on what humanity needed was a flaw and that Guilliman is able to see that it's just not humanity that will win the day. Guilliman has more scope I think. Practical and Theoretical I think it is.

Yup, just like the thunder warriors, the navigators, the Galaxy Plundering for Golden Age of Technology tech, all to be used to free humanity from the warp. He also hoped that turning the human race into a physic race that it would free humanity from the chaos gods... ( Probley wrong,but who knows what the final plan was). He should of consolidated his power over the galaxy but it seems like he was on some kind of time line or just had that much faith in the Primarchs to finish off the mundane task of mopping up the galaxy.

I think after the Galaxy was conquered the Emperor would of discarded the Astarties like the Thunder warriors for 'the next big thing to use to a end' He was a cold cold bastard who saw the narrow strand of fate that humanity could survive by. I don't know if he would of gotten rid of the Primarchs he did put a lot of time and effort into them, even if they where a means to a end seems kinda like a waste. The Astarties not so much they where cheap mass produced pail images of the primarchs ( ie thunder warriors 2.0).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Decent quote on RG:


He is handsome, in a plain way. He is handsome the way a regent on an old coin is handsome, like a good sword is handsome. He is not handsome like a ritual weapon, the way Fulgrim is. He is not angelic, like Sanguinius...

There is a dutiful line to his jaw, like his good brother Dorn. They share a nobility. There is the great strength of Ferrus and the durability of Mortarion. There is, sometimes, the rogue glint of the Khan in his eyes, or the solemnity of the Lion. In the architecture of his nose and brow there is, many claim, the energy and triumph of Horus Lupercal. There is none of the bitterness that shadows Corax, or the persecuted despair that haunts poor Konrad. There is never any of the deliberate mystery that obscures Alpharius or Magnus and he is more open than that buried soul Vulkan... He never displays the pitch of fury found in Angron, nor do his eyes ever ignite with the psychotic gleam of Russ...

He is a high achiever. He knows this about himself. Sometimes it feels like a fault that he has to excuse to his brothers, but then he feels guilty for making excuses... He writes a great deal. He codifies everything. Information is power. Technical theory is victory... He uses a stylus by choice, recording in his own handwriting.

He has been writing notes on T'Vanti war practices for seventeen minutes, but he has still noted and marked fifteen hundred data bulletins and updates that have tracked across the secondary screens to his left. He sees and reconciles everything. Information is victory.

God, when Abnett's on point, he's on fire. Great book, good read, good audio drama to listen to.

And ofc he will be a better leader then The Emperor, Number 13 is a doer. He gets gak done. Heresy era Ultramarines kick ass. I wonder in the new fluff if there will put in any teasters about 2 and 11 Legions and the Ultrabingers absorbing them? " The nu-marines he created swelled the ranks of the decimated Ultra marine chapter. He could breed a Legionion no time with this Archotech he found, like that time he absorb- no a Vow is a Vow 10,000 years changes nothing"

Actually the author behind the quote in "First Heretic suggesting the Ultramarines absorbed the 2 lost Legions has said that he mostly intended that to be jelous bitter whispers by the word bearers. (in other words likely false) which if that is the case makes what Gulliman acheived with the Ultramarines even MORE impressive

ADB said that...nice! Love his work he 'gets' 30 and 40k.

ADB said that...nice! Love his work he 'gets' 30 and 40k.

something along those lines apparently I've not seen the quote myself. it was one of those statements of "who knows maybe there is some truth in it, but maybe it's just jelous whispers" I mean I always interpeted the statements as likely just being negitive gossip from people whom didn't like Gulliman, it's pretty common when you dislike someone to degenerate their achomplishments, I've found people tend to take statements uttered in novels as the "total truth" without considering the prejudices etc of the characters.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Reading ADBs Master of Mankind seems to put the Emperor's attitude to the Primarchs differently. He never saw them as his children. They were his creations, his tools to achieve unification of mankind. He had invested so much to create the Primarchs and a broken tool is better than no tool. But he let some get away with things that should have been nipped in the bud a lot sooner and maybe was too hard on some.

I have always been of this opinion. The Primarchs were clearly differentiated with some destined for certain roles (poor old Magnus for example) but the scattering messed up everything. Instead of growing up in a controlled environment where their personalities could be moulded to those roles as well as their genes, they grew up in wildly varying conditions, strongly influenced by their adopted homeworlds and foster-parents. My impression is that while the Emperor may have cared for them to some degree (IIRC he wept over what had been done to Angron) he was constantly confounded by the irritating, unplanned character traits they had picked up.

His mismanagement of the Primarchs was primarily a reaction to this. The Emperor isn't really a single individual at all but a psychic gestalt, as such, I don't think he entirely gets 1:1 relationships and his relationships with his sons was largely based on how closely they conformed to his plans for them. Your "tool" metaphor is a good one. A carpenter may have a favourite knife for particular jobs. He likes it because he can rely on it to produce the results he wants and it has worked reliably for him for years. If it gets broken he would be upset but that doesn't mean he actually loves it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
I think after the Galaxy was conquered the Emperor would of discarded the Astarties like the Thunder warriors for 'the next big thing to use to a end' He was a cold cold bastard who saw the narrow strand of fate that humanity could survive by.

Yes, much like Leto II in God Emperor of Dune (on whom the Emperor is based), he has effectively sacrificed his own humanity to ensure the survival of the species. Ironically, Leto is undone when he is attacked through his remaining emotions which leads to him making poor decisions. Similarly the Emperor's fondness for Horus blinds him to his fall, at least until the end.

The difference is that in Dune, Leto's death is proved to have been "exactly as he planned all along". The scattering of humanity across the galaxy that follows the collapse of his empire means that no single threat would ever have the power to track down and wipe out humanity as nothing would ever be able to find all of them.

GW has always played coy with the Emperor's plans. Outcast Dead implies that the Emperor knows what is coming and is not about to throw in the towel just yet. Master of Mankind implies that the Emperor really has been broken by the destruction of the Webway project. Wouldn't it be ironic if, in triggering the Heresy, Lorgar has actually brought about what he always wanted to believe, that the Emperor must truly become a god to save humanity.

He's a secretary. He'll throw a fit once he realises how low the IoM is on paperclips.

 Karhedron wrote:


I have always been of this opinion. The Primarchs were clearly differentiated with some destined for certain roles (poor old Magnus for example) but the scattering messed up everything. Instead of growing up in a controlled environment where their personalities could be moulded to those roles as well as their genes, they grew up in wildly varying conditions, strongly influenced by their adopted homeworlds and foster-parents. My impression is that while the Emperor may have cared for them to some degree (IIRC he wept over what had been done to Angron) he was constantly confounded by the irritating, unplanned character traits they had picked up.

His mismanagement of the Primarchs was primarily a reaction to this. The Emperor isn't really a single individual at all but a psychic gestalt, as such, I don't think he entirely gets 1:1 relationships and his relationships with his sons was largely based on how closely they conformed to his plans for them. Your "tool" metaphor is a good one. A carpenter may have a favourite knife for particular jobs. He likes it because he can rely on it to produce the results he wants and it has worked reliably for him for years. If it gets broken he would be upset but that doesn't mean he actually loves it.

Troo dat. The whole scattering of the Primarchs really put a spanner in the works for the Emperor. The Great Crusade, rather than solely being about restoring the Empire of Mankind to what it was pre age of strife, became reunification AND finding the Primarchs. Maybe, he and they in the most part, would have been better off if they would have been left on their new homeworlds.

Muse: Maybe the Emperor had never intended to leave Terra at all. I've often said that the Emperor had meant for the Primarchs to grow up on Terra where he could train them and mould them to his whims. Perhaps he was to stay on Terra whilst the 20 Primarchs and their legions were to do the conquering until the webway project was complete. The Emperor had to go on the crusade after the scattering otherwise the Primarchs would either never be found or wouldn't have signed up without recognising the Emperor as their 'father'. Imagine someone like Teng Namiatrija trying to convince Russ that there was someone like the Emperor on another planet. Russ would have pulled his arms off!

 Karhedron wrote:

Wouldn't it be ironic if, in triggering the Heresy, Lorgar has actually brought about what he always wanted to believe, that the Emperor must truly become a god to save humanity.

He did and he knows he did. It's why he's been skulking on Sicarus all these years, face palming himself over and over

There's the prophecy that keeps Dante going, that a golden figure will stand between the Emperor and the forces of darkness, and guess who else is golden?

Yes, Aurelian.