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Does anyone ever seen this model of Krupp 75mm Mountain Guns + Caisson/Limber unit before? I'm not quite aware whether did my lil country did have ones in the first days of 20th Century. Only the lil 50cm (called 'Model 49' by the Army) is what i've known of ... also made by Krupp and came from the same era.
This 'Model 51' (known in RTA classifications) became known to me last week. in the TV news feed of the Royal Funeral of H.M. King Rama IX (5th December 1927 - 13th Oct 2016; Reigned 5th May 1946-17th Oct 2016) came a WIP news of the Procession items, including the Funeral Caissons to be repaired, reconstructed, refurbished.
Before the cannon carriage became a coffin (or rather a Great Golden Urn) cart, it was a support for 'Model 51 "Mountain" gun' ... The X-Ray tests read that this steel carriage still maintain its integrity well since the year of commission... B.E. 2451 (A.D. 1908) ... for 111 YEARS with no signs of deterioations)... Is this a characteristics of a famous Krupp Steel which Krupp is proud of?
And indeed. this cannon was made by Krupp. The same company that made a tiny 5 cm Mountain Gun !
Krupp 5 cm Model 1903 Mountain gun (classified as Model 49 by the Royal Siamese Army). This weapon serves as Infantry Gun (Or more correctly, Heavy weapons) and thus attached to an infantry regiment in a similar fashion as any HMG rather than grouped together in a large - rigid artillery formation, Before Stokes Mortar has been introduced in the Great War, this damn thing does its job and it was quite labour intensive (a crew of thirteen! the videoclip above shown that it only needs 4 or 6!)
And this is the 75mm Krupp 'Mountain Gun' in question
Spoiler:
Both are called 'Model 51 Mountain Gun'. but there's a dash and followed by either 1 or 2. representing a different subcategory of the pieces, the '-1' is clearly classified as 'cannon' while '-2' is 'howitzer'... the RTA (or RSA) Artydiv didn't seem to have any idea what are the differences between Guns and Howitzers, nor did they coin any words or terms in local languages to distinguish the two different type of the pieces (one that's easily understand... of course!).
Yet both share the same (and at that time innovative) feature... recoil systems.
Both of these were assigned to Heavy Artillery units (Battalions), and came with limbers and caissons (The Krupp 5cm didn't come with these accessories, the weapon can be easily dismantled so the pieces can be loaded by pack horses)... Heck I can't recall if there's any mountain gun came with limbers and caissons but given that the early 1900s Siam didn't have a convenient land transportation networks it has today, 'Mountain Guns' (which can be easily disassembled and reassembled) were preferred over 'Field Guns'
Here's questions... 1. Does anyone here known the Krupp catalog name of this weapon? if the 5cm Mountain Guns are denominated as Model '1903'
2. The Googlings of 'Krupp 75mm Mountain Gun' yielded the results of an enlarged versions of breech loading Model 1903.... i.e. no recoil systems. Both has rigid steel carriage with no dechateable trails.... including this hobby site
Apart of Siam. Who else purchased the same Krupp 75mm mountain guns? Did the Imperial German Army also buy one? Did it see any actions in WW1 (If the Siamese purchases of the two Krupp artillery above did participate in WW2. (including the 1941 wars betwen Siam and Indochine Francaisse where Vickers 6 tonners did join the fray)) Did The Nazi still use the same Krupp guns in its wars?
Maybe inquire with them?
They are a very large company, but still same family so its historical archives might still be fairly good.
.
Ansbyes Krupp built artillery for the nazi government.
They built Dora, and thr heavy railway guns, there parts may not have been known by the name but there parts where used for the construction of there artillary in general across many calibres.
On the mountain guns... I don't know but they did make gubs for Germanny in WW2.
Krupp was a big industrial arms manufacturer.
They had a tradition of giving you the first gun free. Even if it was nearly 1000 tons!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 19:22:15
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Not sure about a Thai specific 75mm model, I've seen the 50mm mountain guns, those are neat, but otherwise I'd expect the Thai versions would just be some derivation on the standard Krupp 1903 L30 75mm.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Vaktathi wrote: Not sure about a Thai specific 75mm model, I've seen the 50mm mountain guns, those are neat, but otherwise I'd expect the Thai versions would just be some derivation on the standard Krupp 1903 L30 75mm.
This maybe with modifications for the local countries particular needs or requiments.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
That's what I'm thinking, the 50mm guns that went to Thailand didn't have recoil mechanisms built in to reduce weight, so I'm sure modifications to other weapons were made as well per customer instructions.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Vaktathi wrote: That's what I'm thinking, the 50mm guns that went to Thailand didn't have recoil mechanisms built in to reduce weight, so I'm sure modifications to other weapons were made as well per customer instructions.
Could also be well thr jungle is rough on weapons and machines. Complexity is more things to go wrong.
Maybe simplifying the gun makes it easier to maintain in the field and yes, weight is a big concern when you got to haul them without advantage of the more industrial nations railways and roads.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/30 19:48:56
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Historical mountain guns where used in that regard. Where a feild gun cannot get,by sheet man and mule power those guns Il go nigh anywhere.
I think modern developments have taken there role some what though.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Ansbyes Krupp built artillery for the nazi government.
They built Dora, and thr heavy railway guns, there parts may not have been known by the name but there parts where used for the construction of there artillary in general across many calibres.
On the mountain guns... I don't know but they did make gubs for Germanny in WW2.
Krupp was a big industrial arms manufacturer.
They had a tradition of giving you the first gun free. Even if it was nearly 1000 tons!
Never head that Krupp had a tradition before. but i guess a funeral caisson in question must be the 'first free gun' you've talking about.
If you look at end of development.
It states the tradition.
Sorry I cannot do quotes off my phone.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
At this point it is worth looking at what was happening in Germany. Whilst Germany had what one might call 'conventional' railway guns and Howitzers, at the request of the German High Command (OKH - Oberkommando des Heeres) in the 1930s the well-known firm Krupp of Essen developed what was to be the largest such gun ever. With the first built at Krupp's expense, a tradition of the company, two more were ordered but only one of these was completed. Named 'Schwerer Gustav' and 'Dora', they required twin railway tracks, i.e
Whilst 'Schwerer Gustav' was built at Krupp's expense, the OKH was charged 7,000,000 Reichsmark for 'Dora' meaning effectively that OKH paid 3,500,000 Reichsmark for each gun. This money would have paid for a mountain of infantry weapons or a fleet of fighter aircraft although the politics behind this were by no means that simple and are not relevant here. The Maginot Line had been constructed during the 1930s and the implication that 'Schwerer Gustav' had been developed pre-war with its destruction in mind calls into question when precisely Hitler had decided to invade France but, again, the politics behind this are complex. These enormous guns were ultimately to prove just another example of the waste of men, money and resources which ultimately came to characterise an increasingly deluded Adolf Hitler. Both guns and the uncompleted third were destroyed at the end of the war. One of the 800mm shells can be seen at the Imperial War Museum, London, while another exists in Warsaw. Arguably HMG Boche-Buster was ultimately to prove a similar waste of men, money and resources but it should be remembered that during wartime events can overtake events unexpectedly and the majority of Railway Howitzers, be they with the Allies or the Axis, did see some active service.
seems pretty solid it was the old tradition. if it applied ti giant guns.. why not there smaller models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/01 22:02:43
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
The order size must cover the cost of the free gun.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
At this point it is worth looking at what was happening in Germany. Whilst Germany had what one might call 'conventional' railway guns and Howitzers, at the request of the German High Command (OKH - Oberkommando des Heeres) in the 1930s the well-known firm Krupp of Essen developed what was to be the largest such gun ever. With the first built at Krupp's expense, a tradition of the company, two more were ordered but only one of these was completed. Named 'Schwerer Gustav' and 'Dora', they required twin railway tracks, i.e
Whilst 'Schwerer Gustav' was built at Krupp's expense, the OKH was charged 7,000,000 Reichsmark for 'Dora' meaning effectively that OKH paid 3,500,000 Reichsmark for each gun. This money would have paid for a mountain of infantry weapons or a fleet of fighter aircraft although the politics behind this were by no means that simple and are not relevant here. The Maginot Line had been constructed during the 1930s and the implication that 'Schwerer Gustav' had been developed pre-war with its destruction in mind calls into question when precisely Hitler had decided to invade France but, again, the politics behind this are complex. These enormous guns were ultimately to prove just another example of the waste of men, money and resources which ultimately came to characterise an increasingly deluded Adolf Hitler. Both guns and the uncompleted third were destroyed at the end of the war. One of the 800mm shells can be seen at the Imperial War Museum, London, while another exists in Warsaw. Arguably HMG Boche-Buster was ultimately to prove a similar waste of men, money and resources but it should be remembered that during wartime events can overtake events unexpectedly and the majority of Railway Howitzers, be they with the Allies or the Axis, did see some active service.
seems pretty solid it was the old tradition. if it applied ti giant guns.. why not there smaller models.
So Krupp 'redistribute' the prices to all the other pieces in the same purchase order in case of a generic 'Export market' products like the two different mountain guns purchased by Royal Siamese Army? (Artydiv website said nothing of such tradition' ... except that the tiny 5cm Mountain guns that equip Infantry (or maybe Cavalry) regiments (as Heavy Weapons choice) were purchased/delivered first, the 75mm (Is it really Model 1903 too? the 'standard' 75mm Model 1903 was a field artillery piece and thus caissons are included... possibly as a standard gear) came later. in this case... which one of the two Siamese orders (I'm not sure if the two different guns are ordered in the same purchasing paper?) will get 'The first piece for free' sales promotion? or the same tradition apply to both?
I surprised that there isn't more widely available data on the use of the Krupp 75mm, since it was widely used and copied throughout Asia in the early 20th Century. Imperial Japan copied the design, and they saw heavy action as late as the Chinese Civil War. There is also indication that the Chinese communists maintained a few into the 1950's until Soviet-based equipment became widely available throughout the Red Army.
^ The Jap ordered (and licensed) this 75mm artillery of mountain variants. with carriages made out of steel pipes and british-style interrupted screw breech instead of side-sliding ones (AFAIK default Krupp breech), dunno why but eventually the Japanese (made) versions were purchased by Royal Siamese Army (This purchase order was made in 1920s or 30s where Germany was grudgely obeying the Versailles treaty where no weapons industry were allowed... A great opportunity for the likes of Bofors, Japanese Steel Industry, and even Vickers (HMGs, Light tanks and tankettes including the infamous 6-ton Mark E) to grab a large chunk of worldwide Weapons market shares once Krupp got a hold of.
How many variants of the 75mm Model 1903 did Krupp produced through the years? I've saw that Argentinian used a different carriage designs to the Bulgarian and Siamese.
Lone Cat wrote: ^ The Jap ordered (and licensed) this 75mm artillery of mountain variants. with carriages made out of steel pipes and british-style interrupted screw breech instead of side-sliding ones (AFAIK default Krupp breech), dunno why but eventually the Japanese (made) versions were purchased by Royal Siamese Army (This purchase order was made in 1920s or 30s where Germany was grudgely obeying the Versailles treaty where no weapons industry were allowed... A great opportunity for the likes of Bofors, Japanese Steel Industry, and even Vickers (HMGs, Light tanks and tankettes including the infamous 6-ton Mark E) to grab a large chunk of worldwide Weapons market shares once Krupp got a hold of.
How many variants of the 75mm Model 1903 did Krupp produced through the years? I've saw that Argentinian used a different carriage designs to the Bulgarian and Siamese.
I can't remember an exact number. But since it was a "stock" gun that Krupp would modify on short notice to meet customer requirements, I'm guessing that tallying the number of nations that used it would give you close to the actual number of variants produced.
Is there any Krupp 75 mm Model 1903 miniatures that fits 40k bests?
Actual Krupp gun models? The only one that I was ever able to find was from Early War Miniatures (Their World War One German range). But it's a Model 02 and I think it's in 20mm (1/72 scale).
But if you don't absolutely have your heart set on a Krupp, Special Hobby make a Skoda M15 75mm Mountain Gun kit that would make a decent stand in at 1/35 scale. And the best part is that it's affordable to buy in numbers.
