Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**gungo**

You know what's going to be great about Astra militarism? So many units buff or improve or have special keywords that expand this army. Scions, inquisitors, ecclesiastical, sisters units like Celestine, gene stealer cults and likely renegade all inherently benefit and buff the guard. I am sure we will have one of the better armies with the amount of synergy that's being leaked.

**gungo**

SeraphimXIX wrote:
What am I missing with the vanquisher? It can't be as bad as it looks can it?

To be fair str8 ap -3 and d6 (2 rolls choose highest) isn't bad but at 4+ to hit or even 3+ to hit it's not good enough for the cost, it needs the coaxial rule on hull mounted weapons to be reliable enough.

**gungo**

The death strike is cut 3d6 hits which hit on a 4+ and do mortal wounds WOW. then on a 4+ it does d3 mortal wounds to any unit within 6in.

I think its time I buy and magnetize a baneblade. Those vehicles are amazing.

Now the big issue is this vehicle doesn't shoot immediately when everything s clumped together in turn 1 or 2 and likely fire off in turn 5-6 or may never fire and the game ends =(.

Its not really competitive but it sure is a fun item.

If anyone enjoys playing apoc the shadwosword is a must have to quickly kill off those titananic models.

There is SOOOO much you can do with the guard and astra militarum in general its going to take a while to digest all this info.
Cant wait to see the forgeworld book either.

**gungo**

I'm just confused why the demolisher base cost more than the Leman russ base when its the EXACT SAME. The increased cost is already baked into the turret weapon.

**gungo**

labmouse42 wrote:
This is my first stab at a 2k list. It uses a supreme command and vanguard detachment.

The amount of firepower it has is pretty darn good. The big weakness is that it's lacking in bodies.
I might turn the 4 scions command squads into just scions and drop a prime. Right now it's set to drop 1 prime next to each other squad to give orders. This lets them maximize their PGs with very little risk to themselves.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I'm just confused why the demolisher base cost more than the Leman russ base when its the EXACT SAME. The increased cost is already baked into the turret weapon.
Oh my screen both are showing as 132 base.

Sorry was looking at powerlevel I forgot the weapon cost isn't baked into power level.

**gungo**

my guess is this is the edition of scions, plasma scions everywhere.

Also I am sad GW didn't make the punisher 40x str 5 shots..... I wanted to play with a shoe box full of dice and just dump it on the table every time I get into the shooting phase. It makes me worry the vulture I bought from forgeworld wont be as cool as it use to be. Hopefully Fw made rules for the sentinel powerlifter. I had to buy that model, because it is so freakin cool looking.

**gungo**

Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

You do realize a single 30 choppaboy unit does 120 atks in combat, they get to pile in and consolidate. This does not include if a waaagh banner is in range which is another 30 atks and this does not include shooting with 30 str4 pistols their next shooting phase. Why would they fall back with leadership 30 and falling back doesn't stop shooting?

**gungo**

Red Corsair wrote:
gungo wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

You do realize a single 30 choppaboy unit does 120 atks in combat, they get to pile in and consolidate. This does not include if a waaagh banner is in range which is another 30 atks and this does not include shooting with 30 str4 pistols their next shooting phase. Why would they fall back with leadership 30 and falling back doesn't stop shooting?

I bolded the part your clearly missed in my post. A base is 1" your getting a max of 10 orks when the assassin charges in after you pile in. good luck with that.

BTW your gonna want to mix your ork boys for this reason, better to get more shots in some cases especially when your never getting a full strength mob within melee range.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Therion wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

So he is 85 points, eversore is 70 and much killier but he will definitely die to a mob of orks UNLESS you get a cheaky flank and they can't pile in with many, that said I could see running a pair up either flank and pulling a unit in two directs with dual charges each round. You will do more damage and have a similar effect to the callexus. Callexus is still the better choice though. He can't be killed efficiently by your opponent and can repeatedly force them to disengage which essentially loses them a round of actions.

They're both great. Culexus, while serving as a shooter and a speed bump, totally ruins psychic heavy armies. Eversor has so good weapons and the bio-meltdown that I'm pretty sure point by point he's decent in point by point efficiency.

Yea I might run all but the calledus, she was always my least favorite. I think it's the most flexible, charge them in on either flank of a mob and split their pile ins where they are thinest. Vindicare can pop support characters or force them inside vehicles making their buffs go away either way. I imagine a pair of vindicares will kill most characters quickly. Luckily tempestors are expendable themselves

I believe its not 1in from the target its 1 in from a model in contact with the target. try it at home you can get ALOT more models in range with at least 3 layers of orks. So the culexus dies in maybe tops 2 turns with 2 rounds of combat each turn and a round of shooting. Not a huge deal with a squad that costs 150.

The culexus is a beatstick still. But you act as if an ork player is going to flee combat with a squad of orks vs them and that wont happen.

**gungo**

Who needs tempestus when you can just field an army of DKOK grenadiers they have carapace and hotshot guns. No volley guns but tons of plasma bits too.

And yes my sentinel powerlifter is back baby
Given the fact gene cults can use any Astra vehicle now this model would be a great looking conversion for someone to do.

**gungo**

Ok that's funny declare charge, overwatch, move back another 6in, roll charge dice,
Oh sorry that 7in charge now requires a 13in charge. So sorry you failed your charge.

**gungo**

Trickstick wrote:
So, I was looking at all the get started + index bundles. I noticed that the Militarum Tempestus one is already gone. I think we may be seeing a top-tier meta-breaking army being forged here. That plasma gun price, B3+ and special deployment, backed up by a really good transport, is insane.

It's to hard to tell but it's not just the fact scions are one of the best troop choices it's the entire imperial soup this edition creates not even including all the FW items with tons of new rules. The meta will definitely be some type of imperial multi detachment shenanigans, Maybe necrons, maybe some demon list. To early to tell.

**gungo**

At 2000 pts we will only see a few Titans. If you are playing apoc around 3000 by all means take one as super heavies are getting more common. We probably need more plastic lord of wars to see titans become more mainstream too and then we FW rules will help.

**gungo**

In all honesty this is a weak nerf. I expected scions to go up in cost and plasmaguns to be nerfed across the board given how much better then grenade launchers and poorly melta works w deepstrike. Command squads isn't that big a deal as people said regular scion squads are still awesome.
And the match play undersized unit ruling is ripe for abuse.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Colonel Cross wrote:
They also nerfed the crap out of the Void Shield Generator :( haha I was going to have some fun with that.

I read it quickly what got nerfed? Sounded like they completely removed the damage chart. How is that a nerf?

**gungo**

I'm kinda liking my sentinel powerlifter again. Seems like a fun fluffy unit.

**gungo**

So I've been looking and can't find anyone anywhere selling it. Does anyone know where I can pick up a sabre defense platform with searchlight or a decent equivilant. I'd prefer a FW varient, but oop model and all. You can pm me so not to further derail.

**gungo**

Requizen wrote:
Anyone taken a GSC detachment with their AM? Is there anything in their list that really benefits us as much as it does vice versa for them?

I'm taking pure IG detachment and a patriarch with as many Gene stealers as I can fit with my IG detachment. That's it.
There really is no reason NOT to take genestealers. They are one of the best assault units in game and when you include a separate detachment you can take whatever you want from Astra militarum. And I don't even need to buy that many more models since space hulk gave me a patriarch and 20 stealers, However I would like at least another 20 stealers. That's really a powerful <500point detachment you opponent has to deal with.
Of course I do play PURE imperium but stealers just make some narrative battles better since SO many people play pure imperium.

**gungo**

Still decent for conscript blobs.
So does anyone know anywhere I can pick this OOP model up? I swear I've been looking for the last month plus and no one is selling them.

**gungo**

So I found it odd they only chose 7 space marine chapters for tactics. So I wonder if this is deliberate to give each faction 7 "chapters". Orks coincidentally have 7 clans with freebooters. So which 7 regiments do you think guards will have?
Cadian
Catachan
Vostroyan
Valhallan
Steel legion
Mordian
Tallarn

Are my guesses. Which leaves out praetorian, which haven't had models in a long time. (And dkok and Elysian which fw will have to do) Or do you think gw will just do 8+ regiments for guard?

It will be good to see how they expand necron dynasties, tyranid hive fleets, and tau septs to create 7 chapters for each.

**gungo**

While alaitoc, bieltan, iyanden, saimhann, ulthwe are the main craft worlds. It's not as if Altansar isn't popular in lore and ilkaithe would be a great way to bring bone singers into the game or the many other craftworlds.

**gungo**

Right now I take fun lists with units I rarely got to play with the last 2-3 editions.
I bought 2 boxes of bullgryns I never played but built because they were cool looking. I get to play with them now.
I was never into spamming the same unit so I only have about 3x of each model. Death strikes I finally use for fun.
Chimeras I still use w melta vet squads and they aren't all that
I have 10 dkok riders I use as rough riders.
Hell hounds
Basic infantry w command squads with standards because they look cool.
I'm not spamming company commanders, scions or taking more then 40 conscripts (because all I have is 40 conscripts). I use my 4 sentinels 1 of which is a power lifter.

So basically playing stuff I owned and always wanted to play with even if I haven't painted them yet. I don't think this gravy train will last forever.

**gungo**

argonak wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:
Invinciblebug wrote:
So purely hypothetically if plasma guns didn't exist (say they hit the nerfbat hard) what would you guys think of meltaguns and HSVGs on Tempestus Scions?

Would it be worth to bring melta/HSVG scions if plasma was gone or would you just not bother with scions?

Plasma could go up to 15pts a gun and I would still take it, they're that good. I can't imagine GW doing anything crazier than that to them that wouldn't just horribly nerf everything else with access to plasma even worse. There are way too many things with the plasma statline in the game for it to go away. They will do a points adjustment and that's it, it's all they can do. This in mind the plasma gun fills an important role for guard special weapons, hence why I said I'd still buy them at 15pts. I'm used to that from last edition and to be honest that plasma gun was way inferior to the one we have now.

As for the other weapons, I tried both out on stormtroopers this weekend. I actually really liked them, they had a niche they filled pretty well. I took the HSVG's in a full 10 man squad, so 4 HSVG's, 5 lasguns, and a sarge with a plasma pistol. Puts out a stupid amount of fire and if they survive the drop to move into rapid fire range, their lasgun buddies get 4 shots as well with an officer nearby. Worked really well for hollowing out space marine squads and high save units in cover like scouts. Also draws a crazy amount of fire when you drop a unit in and are rolling something like 20 AP -2/-3 dice, which helped take heat off the plasma and melta elements.

As for melta, I had a 5 man troop squad with 2 meltas and plasma pistol. With a 4 man plasma command squad, an officer, and the 10 man volley gun squad, the opponent ignored the melta unit as the other units are far more flashy on the drop. I ended up sicking the meltas on his characters and being able to advance to point blank range for that 2d6 pick highest damage is excellent. Plasma is still the ultimate jack of all trades gun but I will absolutely continue to use the meltas. Even at 7-12", that potential for a money high damage roll and completely negating most armor saves is very handy. It really lets you punish a sloppy player leaving their characters exposed, that's for sure.

My expectation is that Tempestus Scions will move to their own subsection of the codex and get their own wargear page, but retain their AM keyword. That way GW can raise the cost for them specifically (since they're BS3+) without nerfing it for guard (who are BS4+).

Seems reasonably that scions should pay about the same for a plasma gun as a space marine, since they have the same BS. I think they'll still have their place, but it won't be spammed quite as hard core.

Honestly I'm hoping gw nerfs plasmagun/pistol across the board for all armies so it's at best str6 and str7 overcharged.
It's not just the fact plasma is overpowered, but it completely throws off balance with all special weapons with grenade launchers and melta guns being worse in most situations.
And worst still most vehicles in 40k 8th are not as durable as they should be.
There is way to much easily accessible and cheap str8 multi damage weapons that make a mockery of t8 3+ save ~15 wound units....
if plasma guns get nerfed as I hope above it's almost garaunteed that leman russes and similar vehicles would be much much better. At str 7 a plasma gun can still do decent damage but it won't be nearly as bad as it currently is.
If you just raise plasma to 15ppm people will still spam they are just that good with deep strike at alpha striking. And it does very little to solve the bigger problem caused by plasmaguns.
With plasma nerfed to str 7 armies will need to rely on krak missiles, lascannons, melta wpns, melee, or high rate of fire, etc all of which are either vastly more expensive with less shots or have much shorter range to take down t8.

**gungo**

How are baneblade better then knights in Melee? Even vs horde titanic feet gives them 12x str8 attacks at ap-2 d3 at bs3+
Bandeblade is 9x str9 atks at ap-2 d3 at bs4+.

Not to mention it can move over infantry and move and fire hvy weapons without penalty.
I guess if you take flamer sponsons it can be better if the baneblade doesn't move but if I'm stuck in melee w a horde w a knight I just fall back fire my Gatling cannon and dual battle cannon and stubbers and then charge and finish off what's left.

**gungo**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
gungo wrote:
How are baneblade better then knights in Melee? Even vs horde titanic feet gives them 12x str8 attacks at ap-2 d3 at bs3+
Bandeblade is 9x str9 atks at ap-2 d3 at bs4+.

Not to mention it can move over infantry and move and fire hvy weapons without penalty.
I guess if you take flamer sponsons it can be better if the baneblade doesn't move but if I'm stuck in melee w a horde w a knight I just fall back fire my Gatling cannon and dual battle cannon and stubbers and then charge and finish off what's left.

Because they can still shoot. Knights in Melee get 12x battlecannon shots.

Baneblades in melee get 9 Str 9 battlecannon shots plus baneblade cannon shots plus demolisher cannon shots plus heavy bolter/heavy flamer shots plus lascannon shots plus autocannon shots plus heavy stubber shots. Not all of them can be at what it's fighting, but that's why it gets those 9 Str 9 battlecannon shots at that particular target :3.

What's more, it's usually stationary when it's locked up so it gets to shoot them all at full BS.

What's more, enemy units can't shoot at it while it's locked up, so it's immune to the most common enemy AT assets.

It isn't that the baneblade beats a knight in melee. But it is better for a Baneblade to be in melee than a Knight, because it really isn't meaningfully affected at all, except to get 9 more baneblade cannon shots (essentially) and being immune to enemy shooting.

Still not seeing it
The only difference from the knight crusader vs baneblade is the baneblade can fire its wpns while locked in combat but only to units not within 1in and the knight can move and fire at full bs with better accuracy 3+. They both can disengage and fire and recharge. However the knight doesnt need to be stationary. There is no reason not to fall back and shoot and recharge with the knight when it allows you to hit first in combat and move over infantry..
The knight crusader gets 2d6 battle cannon shots and 12x str6 ap-2 2 dam avenger Gatling shots and 2x hvy stubbers and optional carapace wpn. The above knight without the carapace is nearly the same price as a baneblade without sponsons and The knight crusader has a better bs. That 3+ bs and higher volume of shots really has helped me more this edition.

**gungo**

Best codex this edition by far.....
It's so well done...
And with tyranids out soon I wonder how well GSC will become when attached with a astra militarum detachment.

**gungo**

Plasmaguns are 15pnts on bs3 models, 12 for vets and still 7 pts on bs4.
Scions get another shot at halfrange on a 6+. Ironically this helps deepstrike plasmagun and not hot shot lasguns/melta.
They also have an order that allows them to reroll failed wound vs vehicles and monster creatures but that means no reroll 1s for plasma if you use it.

Baneblade variants all got huge buffs outside of regiment doctrines which further improve them. Price cut, d6 more shots, move and fire without penalty..... there is a new ogryn bodyguard that probably can eat wounds for tank characters. And pask which is already 2+ bs is Cadian which allows him to reroll 1 when he doesn't move.

Most infantry went down in price. Also combined squads allows you to almost never give up kill points because you can just keep combining squads for 1cp as long as you are near another infantry squad. I have no idea how they expect you to keep track of killpoints doing this unless each squad is marked different or you just don't get killpoints until the combined squad is gone.

Basilisks were good and now even better at -3ap.
Everyone was all hyped for catachan doctrine but thier order is kind of meh.. it allows you to reroll number of atks w flamers and ignore cover. Not extremely useful but ok on scout sentinels, I guess.

The best warlord trait gives you more cp and reroll 1 hit, wound, or saving throw per battle. I'm confused by this it's not per game or limited to the warlord so does this mean every single combat/shooting phase I can reroll 1 die?
3 new psychic powers with the best being -1 to hit a unit or maybe an 18in sniping psychic power that does a mortal wound on 2+, 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+.

You don't lose regimental doctrines with most AM add on units like commissars, bullgrysn, scions, priests, psykers and crusaders?

**gungo**

argonak wrote:
gungo wrote:
Plasmaguns are 15pnts on bs3 models, 12 for vets and still 7 pts on bs4.
Scions get another shot at halfrange on a 6+. Ironically this helps deepstrike plasmagun and not hot shot lasguns/melta.
They also have an order that allows them to reroll failed wound vs vehicles and monster creatures but that means no reroll 1s for plasma if you use it.

Baneblade variants all got huge buffs outside of regiment doctrines which further improve them. Price cut, d6 more shots, move and fire without penalty..... there is a new ogryn bodyguard that probably can eat wounds for tank characters. And pask which is already 2+ bs is Cadian which allows him to reroll 1 when he doesn't move.

Most infantry went down in price. Also combined squads allows you to almost never give up kill points because you can just keep combining squads for 1cp as long as you are near another infantry squad. I have no idea how they expect you to keep track of killpoints doing this unless each squad is marked different or you just don't get killpoints until the combined squad is gone.

Basilisks were good and now even better at -3ap.
Everyone was all hyped for catachan doctrine but thier order is kind of meh.. it allows you to reroll number of atks w flamers and ignore cover. Not extremely useful but ok on scout sentinels, I guess.

The best warlord trait gives you more cp and reroll 1 hit, wound, or saving throw per battle. I'm confused by this it's not per game or limited to the warlord so does this mean every single combat/shooting phase I can reroll 1 die?
3 new psychic powers with the best being -1 to hit a unit or maybe an 18in sniping psychic power that does a mortal wound on 2+, 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+.

You don't lose regimental doctrines with most AM add on units like commissars, bullgrysn, scions, priests, psykers and crusaders?

Marines pay 13 points. if scions pay 15 I'm crying foul.

Marines don't deepstrike which is why marine players use scions instead... plasmaguns are simply better on scions then marines nothing foul about it.
Look at the beginning of the video he states it there but it's not 100% clear when he says plasmaguns were 15pts and veterans pay 13pts..

**gungo**

Models like imperial space marine, rough riders or models w different load outs that are no longer sold can be used from the index.

**gungo**

Just use steel legion or vosroyan depending on setup.
Reason being steel legion isn't all that but since you have almost no infantry and 3 superheavies all of your opponents anti infantry weapons are going into your SHVs. This actually makes the -1ap ability useful and likely to save your tanks from the mass anti infantry meta we are currently playing.

Vostoyan has 2 benefits 1) if you use a lot of multi melta or heavy bolters etc 30in range helps. 2) for 1cp per SHV you increase all thier shooting by 1 <-this is huge... even the warlord trait is decent if you try to charge with your warlord w reroll to hit and wound in combat.

**gungo**

Not in the codex but you are free to use the index as the most recent datasheet for models they no longer make.
OR
you can use DKOK death riders which are even better.

Its not that big a deal the index is still 8th edition and what most armies are using and very little in the codex helps rough riders since they are neither infantry or vehicles.

**gungo**

It doesn't say wholly. As long as part of every model of a unit is within 7in the entire unit is within 7in. If one side rear track of a baneblade is within 7in the entire model is within 7in.

Tallarn Stratagem: Ambush: 3 CP, place 3 Tallarn units in reserves, these enter the battlefield within 7″ of any board edge, more than 9″ away from enemy units