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With random run & charge rolls, units able to fall back from combat, twin linked doubling shots, multiple damage on weapons and no more being able to break a squad during the shooting/hth phase.....is 8th shaping up to be another shooty fest?
I really miss good old meaty hth combats.

Speculation hats on.

Probably? I mean yeah there is universal always strike first if you charge, but I swear to the dark gods I hate random rolls.

I hope so. I prefer my sci-fi games in the future to be more about guns than about bludgeoning someone with an axe.

Just pewpews? Nah, I imagine that there is also going to be some Dakka dakka dakka! Zap! Pow! Freem! Fwoosh! Crunch! Poof! Brrrrt! BOOM!

It's shaping up to be a shooting edition. My armies are sad.

Looks like it so far but if melee units and wargear are aggressively priced we might be in for some luck.

My bet is yes and no. If you're expecting to QWOP up the middle of the table at the nastiest gunline the Tau, Guard, Imperial Fists or Necrons can put together, get there with most of your guys intact and then rip and tear, you'll probably be disappointed. I'm betting armies that don't shoot at all and only chop will be fairly gimmicky and probably designed strictly as an anti-gunline trick, but assault will still be viable if backed up by carefully placed shooting and mechanization, speed or deployment shenanigans.

By the same token, if you've got an army that can chop and you choose not to take advantage of that, I bet you'll have some trouble. Dakka-only will probably be only for those armies designed that way - and I'll bet that even Guard and Tau will have a few strategic ways to use assault.

In particular, it looks like assault will probably be the method of choice for killing characters (possibly along with snipers, who were also personae non grata in 7e). We haven't seen any melee weapon profiles yet, but it wouldn't shock me if power fists, thunder hammers, power klaws, chainfists, eviscerators, etc are some of the better ways to cut big things down to size.

We haven't seen M stats for so many of the melee units, nor do we know anything about deployment maps. It could be that most deployement are 9" from center (so 18" no-mans land rather than the 24" of 7e) and some units may have M stats above 12", possibly upwards of 18"

It is entirely possible that turn 1 assaults will not only be possible, but quite common. If so, things like multiple Overwatch, double shots, etc are not only balanced, but warranted.

-

Actually, I'm going to disagree. I'm going to say the addition of basic Move values on vehicles (think transports) and faster move values for many armies might mean that Hand-to-Hand is easier to get into, but more difficult to cause catastrophic damage with.

Instead, we may see HTH just being...one of two basic ways for you to choose to do damage to your enemy. Especially if the rumors of charge from deep strike/charge out of close top transports become a reality.

Which I think could be healthy. Again, I'm reserving judgement until I see the final product to be sure, but I would like close combat not to be quite as all-or-nothing as it is now. I'd like when buying a HTH unit to be more sure than I am now that they'll be capable of going in and at least doing some of their job, even if they don't perform optimally. I'd like it to be less "buy a melee unit, they'll either pay for themselves 3x or die before swinging their fists" and more like we see with shooting.

Everything we've heard about Khorne berserkers says they are terrifying, so there are definitely some tricks we don't know about that make melee appropriately deadly. We also are seeing a new necessity for assault units, with cover giving a + 1 to armor saves, you'll need assault to chase entrenched MEQ out of cover. Finally, you have the persistent rumor that all vehicles will be assault transports, which would be a game changer as well.

GW has done good work so far on 8th ed, so I'm pretty confident they didn't screw over assault armies.

What have we heard about Khorne Berserkers?

Solid info, please-not just hype.

Well so far it seems assault vehicles would be more than tough enough to reach enemy lines, possibly not even requiring assault vehicles. I wouldn't write of assaults just yet. Plus, as jade_angel mentioned, it looks like it may well be the method of choice to dispose of characters. The loss of which could often be quite a blow to your opponent.

 JNAProductions wrote:
What have we heard about Khorne Berserkers?

Solid info, please-not just hype.

That they are terrifying.

That's it

It's hard to say without seeing any melee weapon profiles. Thunderhammers may do 14d6 damage and prevent surviving models from ever attacking again for all we know.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It's shaping up to be a shooting edition. My armies are sad.

I'm not sure where you're getting this conclusion.

Everything i've seen - both balance wise, and math wise - supports the idea that this is going to be an assault edition.

If Thunder Hammers are Strength 8 AP -3 /w D3 damage, they'll be more far effective against most tanks than Lascannons will be.

Seizing will be gone. How good is that? Real good.

As for melee, it appears melee will be solid. Units of multi-wound models could be in trouble though. The rules appear to hit them pretty hard. I speak specifically of UNITS of them. I fear that they will be unfairly affected by the rules and that could adversely effect melee significantly for some forces. The LD mechanic is the specific source of concern there.

 Jancoran wrote:
Seizing will be gone. How good is that? Real good.

As for melee, it appears melee will be solid. Units of multi-wound models could be in trouble though. The rules appear to hit them pretty hard. I speak specifically of UNITS of them. I fear that they will be unfairly affected by the rules and that could adversely effect melee significantly for some forces. The LD mechanic is the specific source of concern there.

The leadership mechanic is interesting. With a lot of guns shooting double the volume of shots (combi, twin linked, etc) or just a large number of shots (Heavy D6), leadership could prove to be a really annoying mechanic which artificially speeds up games.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Seizing will be gone. How good is that? Real good.

As for melee, it appears melee will be solid. Units of multi-wound models could be in trouble though. The rules appear to hit them pretty hard. I speak specifically of UNITS of them. I fear that they will be unfairly affected by the rules and that could adversely effect melee significantly for some forces. The LD mechanic is the specific source of concern there.

The leadership mechanic is interesting. With a lot of guns shooting double the volume of shots (combi, twin linked, etc) or just a large number of shots (Heavy D6), leadership could prove to be a really annoying mechanic which artificially speeds up games.

Its an issue. A real issue. I have been very counter meta in many of my lists and one of those is the Dark Eldar. The win percentage I have with them is pretty well off the charts, and it's a purely melee oriented force. There's a few guns in it but very few , and even fewer of them fire. one of the hallmarks of that list is definitely the multiple wounds I have on the models. It matters. it may be one of the toughest bunch of modelss you'll see in a 40K game.

So to see the morale rules and how its worded according to the releases worries me a bit. While I have whats needed to play a shooty list, I've always liked the Coven concept and would be loathe to see it fade away. Such a rare army as I have is unique and it would pain me to moth ball it.

The main reason, so far, it appears to be a shooting edition is the retreat mechanic. You either have to charge many units (which, unless you have a truly killer (and LARGE) unit, will result in you losing) or face nearly an entire army's worth of shooting in response to an assault.

My daemon princes, for instance, can assault one unit at a time-maybe two, if they're nearby each other. Even if they crump both units, the entire army gets a free shooting against me next turn.

 Jancoran wrote:
Seizing will be gone. How good is that? Real good.

As for melee, it appears melee will be solid. Units of multi-wound models could be in trouble though. The rules appear to hit them pretty hard. I speak specifically of UNITS of them. I fear that they will be unfairly affected by the rules and that could adversely effect melee significantly for some forces. The LD mechanic is the specific source of concern there.

OTOH unit of 5 models with 2 wounds will be(without very low LD) almost fearless while unit of 10 W1 guys will fear the ld checks. Same amount of wounds per unit but it's the W1 guys that fear LD more.

 Ratius wrote:
With random run & charge rolls, units able to fall back from combat, twin linked doubling shots, multiple damage on weapons and no more being able to break a squad during the shooting/hth phase.....is 8th shaping up to be another shooty fest?
I really miss good old meaty hth combats.

Speculation hats on.

Well, apparently assaults when disembarking is thing, and if that applies to fliers and drop pods, all the pew pew you'll see is overwatch. So I'm not crying too hard for assault armies if this is the case.

Edit: I think if you're going assault, you go all in, not 'a few assault units here and there'. 1-2 dedicated assault units will probably suffer a lot.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Seizing will be gone. How good is that? Real good.

As for melee, it appears melee will be solid. Units of multi-wound models could be in trouble though. The rules appear to hit them pretty hard. I speak specifically of UNITS of them. I fear that they will be unfairly affected by the rules and that could adversely effect melee significantly for some forces. The LD mechanic is the specific source of concern there.

OTOH unit of 5 models with 2 wounds will be(without very low LD) almost fearless while unit of 10 W1 guys will fear the ld checks. Same amount of wounds per unit but it's the W1 guys that fear LD more.

you lose entire MODELS when you fail LD... Think about that...

 JNAProductions wrote:
The main reason, so far, it appears to be a shooting edition is the retreat mechanic. You either have to charge many units (which, unless you have a truly killer (and LARGE) unit, will result in you losing) or face nearly an entire army's worth of shooting in response to an assault.

My daemon princes, for instance, can assault one unit at a time-maybe two, if they're nearby each other. Even if they crump both units, the entire army gets a free shooting against me next turn.

That kiboshes hiding out in a melee fight, or using a token melee unit to stick down a shooty unit, but it doesn't really force the entire army to shoot, unless they have nothing else of consequence to shoot at. I'll be interested to see how that shakes out in practice, because I think that is where some unforeseen balance problems may lurk, but I doubt it's automatically the kiss of death to choppy armies, in the way that finding it difficult to ever get stuck in was in 6e.

I've only played 7th, so that might be coloring my impressions.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The main reason, so far, it appears to be a shooting edition is the retreat mechanic. You either have to charge many units (which, unless you have a truly killer (and LARGE) unit, will result in you losing) or face nearly an entire army's worth of shooting in response to an assault.

My daemon princes, for instance, can assault one unit at a time-maybe two, if they're nearby each other. Even if they crump both units, the entire army gets a free shooting against me next turn.

or you can have a number of units that assault many enemies at one time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Seizing will be gone. How good is that? Real good.

As for melee, it appears melee will be solid. Units of multi-wound models could be in trouble though. The rules appear to hit them pretty hard. I speak specifically of UNITS of them. I fear that they will be unfairly affected by the rules and that could adversely effect melee significantly for some forces. The LD mechanic is the specific source of concern there.

OTOH unit of 5 models with 2 wounds will be(without very low LD) almost fearless while unit of 10 W1 guys will fear the ld checks. Same amount of wounds per unit but it's the W1 guys that fear LD more.

you lose entire MODELS when you fail LD... Think about that...

Yes but for say 2 wound terminators for example at LD 8 you would need to lose 3 models and roll a 6 to lose 1 model. So that means taking 6 wounds prior to risking another model. If a similar 10 man squad of 1 wound models takes 6 wounds. Rolling that same 6 loses them 4 models (10 total wounds vs 8 for the terminators). So high wound low LD units might be in a bit of trouble if they have no ways to mitigate their low LD. But all in all LD is worse for large squads of weak models than it is for smaller high wound squads, unless they have super low LD.

Now if say Grotesques are still what LD 2, then any loss is potentially huge. But I would assume they will have some way to ignore or mitigate this issue. As 1+D6 would have you losing 2 or 3 models for taking 1 casualty.

Beastpack has 12 lightly armored models for example. It's an issue . Other units in Dark eldar are similarly lightly armored and rely solely on toughness.

 Jancoran wrote:
Seizing will be gone. How good is that? Real good.

As for melee, it appears melee will be solid. Units of multi-wound models could be in trouble though. The rules appear to hit them pretty hard. I speak specifically of UNITS of them. I fear that they will be unfairly affected by the rules and that could adversely effect melee significantly for some forces. The LD mechanic is the specific source of concern there.

I had not yet read the seize being gone... that makes me sad unless they traded it with something else. going first is such a huge advantage fire first, move close enough to be out of assault range but close enough to probably get off the assault next turn. remove points before your opponent got to use things, and if no chance to seize then there would be no reason to conservatively deploy so going first will be even more of an advantage.

It's probably beneficial to have either one unit to deal with any characters since it will be very hard to do so at range. Or, go full ham, since the more units you can engage, the less will be shooting at you. IIRC the units that withdraw from melee can't do anything else that turn, so multi charging is good even if it's only with a single model. That or charging many different units.

What also could work is assaulting key units if you can control where to charge, let's say drop podding and assaulting some nasty back field unit. It doesn't matter what you charge with, just so long as one model stays alive they won't be able to shoot. So ultimately, I don't think a whole lot will change about assaults. My impression was that it will be easier to get into close combat and it could very well be extremely devastating with at initiative powerfists and friends. You are more vulnerable now, but those assault lists that kinda work now would still work in 8th. Massed assaults could een work better than before because pulling out of CC means you will suffer from charge boni again and if enough units are charged your shooting will suffer quite a bit and you bring your units closer together, risking to be drawn into multiple combats via piling in.

Units that DON'T die from your opponent pulling back only get better. They get to hit first again, get to shoot again and can now move closer to your other units to multi charge. We don't know enough to say for anything for sure, but assaulting could very well be a viable option.

 Jancoran wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Seizing will be gone. How good is that? Real good.

As for melee, it appears melee will be solid. Units of multi-wound models could be in trouble though. The rules appear to hit them pretty hard. I speak specifically of UNITS of them. I fear that they will be unfairly affected by the rules and that could adversely effect melee significantly for some forces. The LD mechanic is the specific source of concern there.

OTOH unit of 5 models with 2 wounds will be(without very low LD) almost fearless while unit of 10 W1 guys will fear the ld checks. Same amount of wounds per unit but it's the W1 guys that fear LD more.

you lose entire MODELS when you fail LD... Think about that...

Yes, I'm quite looking forward.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The main reason, so far, it appears to be a shooting edition is the retreat mechanic. You either have to charge many units (which, unless you have a truly killer (and LARGE) unit, will result in you losing) or face nearly an entire army's worth of shooting in response to an assault.

My daemon princes, for instance, can assault one unit at a time-maybe two, if they're nearby each other. Even if they crump both units, the entire army gets a free shooting against me next turn.

"Locked in combat" preventing you from shooting into the combat was a real problem. It's good they fixed this... being held in an unwinnable combat was silly, and even sillier was the idea that you can't shoot at a mighty Daemon prince because Guard Private Jeffy is still tickling the Daemon's ankles with his broken bayonet.