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 King Amroth wrote:

Honestly the heresy community has often been the one with the most mature members but these days everyone seems to be half way between denial and chuck your toys from the pram.

QFT!

Yeah, I'm surprised by how many of the 30k community online seem to be sticking their fingers in their ears and swearing that every bit of info released means that 30k will stick with 7ed or get its own rules. FW seem to have been pretty clear in indicating that it WILL switch. Releasing Angelus when everyone knows that it's going to be invalidated would be a bad business decision, so that gives us a finite timeframe.

I'll switch to 8ed as soon as I can - everything I've seen looks great. Even if a few individual things look odd, the changes as a whole look so good that I'm convinced it's going to be a better game system anyway!

The real problem for me is playing Heresy in the interim. If 40k rules come out soon, and they are a better, faster game, there's no way I'm going to want to continue with 7ed any longer than I have to, or try and keep both rulesets in my head at the same time. So I'll probably be shelving the HH stuff until they update.

On the other hand, since the vast majority of HH units and weapons exist in 40k too, a lot of the work will have been done by the release of 40k 8th. Hopefully it won't take FW too long to update the Legion-specific units and odd weapons that are left over.

Tamwulf wrote:What will probably happen? We'll get a Day One PDF of the Legions with place holder stats so we can play Horus Heresy games in 8th edition from day 1. They won't be balanced or play tested or anything else, and it will quickly become evident that 30K is broken. Then FW will slowly, ever so slowly, drip out updated Legion books, probably at the rate of 2-3 Legions every six months. The first book to be done will be Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and White Scars because presumably, that is the book FW is working on right now. Around Holiday Season 2017, we'll see the first 30K book released for 8th ed- DA, BA, and WS. Six months later, we'll see the first three Traitor Legions. Once again, the Horus Heresy will be strung out over five plus years, with some Legions still using a Day One PDF with placeholder rules. "Codex Creep" will be a real thing, because those Day One place holder stats are going to suck the life out of whatever Legion you play. Anyone that played 2ed/Rogue Trader and then converted over to 3rd Ed knows exactly what I'm talking about. All the current armies received place holder stats/rules day 1, and that was OK at first. Then when the Codexes started rolling out, there was a definite shift in power levels, with New Codex > Older Codex > Place Holder Stats.

That's why I want DA, BA, and WS released in 7th first, so I can play a complete game until Forge World gets around to updating 30K properly. I'm just not looking forward to playing 30K with those place holder stats.

I'm not sure why any that would happen - it seems to go against what GW and FW have always done in the past and everything they've been saying over the last few weeks. Legion codexes? I think you're more likely to see a PDF set of 'data cards'. The codex creep model is exactly what they've been moving away from for years now.

Also, the release of Angelus as 7th wouldn't complete the game in any way - they've already stated that they think the Black Book series will be 12-15 books long, which means there still a lot to come before it's 'complete'.

SirDonlad wrote:Good attempt but no.
Mechanicum HQ's do more than trade wounds with their bodyguard - they use servitors to improve battlesmith rolls as well as denoting firepower via augury scanner - this is before we get into how the Lachrimallus based army list works.

How the list works in 7ed, you mean. This is a new game. It's gonna have new rules. Mechanicum HQs have special Bodyguard arrangements at the moment, but maybe they won't in the new edition. Maybe servitors will be a separate unit who add to battle smith rolls within a certain radius. Who knows?

I'm sure Ordo Reductor will still be written to keep to the fluff as an artillery/siege focussed list, but they're under no obligation to make those rules work in any way like they currently do in 7ed. Expect the way you play your army and arrange your units to change.

 Tamwulf wrote:
This is a good assessment, and probably correct. Where/when did FW say they would have these Index books ready for the launch of 8th? I know they were supposed to make some big announcement May 28th at Warhammer Fest, but have I missed something?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/23/forge-world-and-the-new-warhammer-40000/

Astartes and Chaos to pre-order on the 3rd, for release 'alongside the new rules'. More Index books planned for late June (which is only a couple of weeks later).

 SirDonlad wrote:
I'm really surprised that some people don't like the idea of a custom HH ruleset; i see it as the final liberation of 30k and anything is possible!

See, this is true in theory - FW are in total control of their rules so they COULD write a modern, fast paced wargame with even better rules and gameplay than what 8ed looks to have.

I just don't see that happening with something based on 7ed.

At the moment, I play Heresy mostly because I like the setting, the armies, the look and feel of playing a game. But the actual gameplay is a drag. The rule system is bloated and old-fashioned. It takes ages to do everything and there are so many special rules that remembering everything single thing in-game feels like a big weight on your shoulders. FW is better at balance than GW but the game is still the weak point IMO. At the moment, I endure the game so that I can play in the background I enjoy.

8ed and the marketing around this is a sign that even GW realise this, that they've seen the newer, better games out there and have realised that their core game is too big and daunting for people to get into. Not even GW admit any more that the reason to play 7ed was because of the great rules. Maybe there ARE people out there who really think the 7ed ruleset is a good one - maybe they've even played AoS, X-Wing, Afterlife, Infinity, etc etc and still honestly think that 7ed 40k is the better ruleset. But I don't think there are many!

I agree that FW could take 7ed and streamline it into a good game, but I don't think they will. For me, that would require:

- Removing entirely the concept that my 'X' unit deletes your 'Y' unit. Kraken Penetrators straight up removing things. One-shotting vehicles should be really rare. Deep striking AT instantly removing bits of the army isn't fun.
- Really, radically changing the psychic phase, so it feels less like a game outside the game.
- Removing the weird jump that makes Superheavies instantly vastly better than normal vehicles, and thus the gross imbalance with things like Knights.
- Reducing the number of special rules and exceptions across the board to speed things up. Primarchs have, what, ten special rules? And then all their equipment does, etc

Those are just some examples, but all of them would require reprinting the Red Books if they were changed, at which point you might as well switch to 8ed. So I doubt that will actually happen. It leaves me, and a lot of others, in a difficult position:

- Play 40k, with it's cartoony kid-aimed background but a modern ruleset.
- Play 30k, in the background I like, but with much longer games and crappy rules.

:(

Shinzra wrote:
Ah right ok, so the books willl allow me to use my 30k legion army in 40k 8th edition then?

Cheers

No. If you want to use it like a Legion army, you have to stick playing 7ed like currently.

The index books are to replace the Imperial Armour books - FW make tons of models for 40k that aren't anything to do with the Horus Heresy (like Elysian Drop Sentinels) and lots of their Heresy-era stuff is also available in 40k as 'relics' (like Sicarans and Fellblades). The aindex books contain the 8ed 40k rules for those models.

You could use the Index books and the Space Marine book to field your 30k models, but you wouldn't have the special units or primary's and obviously no rites of war. You'd be playing a 40k space marine army, just with 30k models.

 godardc wrote:
So, are the two red books currently available safe to buy ?
They won't be updated soon ?
And if I buy the ebooks, they will be updates anyway, won't they ?

The whole point of FW sticking with 7ed is so that they don't have to update the red army books, since they don't have the manpower at the moment.

So they should be safe to buy, and don't expect any updates any time soon!

I'm also of the opinion that the game is dead until the eventual 8ed conversion, it's just that this might be a few years. In the mean time, we're working on some of our own rules - http://heresy30k.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/10142-playing-heresy-in-8th-format/