Stormonu wrote:What A Crock.
I just bought two boxes of Wargames Factory WW2 Americans/Germans for $7.89 a box (30 good quality figures + options per box), and a box of 10 Eisenkern soldiers for $19.00.
Hell, at the tail end of 5th, I bought the Black Reach set for about $80. Don't even get me started about the Eldar and Tau battleforce boxes from the 90's. Forget the cost - the number of miniatures that came with those sets (about twice that in a Start Collecting box) makes the current offerings look pathetic.
GW has been jacking up prices AND cutting model count for years now, and everybody just asks for another shot in the arm.
GW's prices are so jacked that their "discounted" sets are STILL about 20% over the cost they should be. And their rules are still phoned-in insults to the customer.
What a crock, indeed. You can't compare Dreamforge's Memorial Day fire sale prices of former-WGF historicals to regular full-priced sci-fi models from
GW. A more honest comparison would be those Eisenkern for their full price, and while you're at it, compare the WGF Americans and Germans to Warlord's ones (or Warlord's ex-WGF range. The Samurai range, perhaps?) Black Reach model counts can't really be compared to the standard sets, or even the Start Collecting boxes. Apples and Oranges, since you're comparing starter-set push-fits to their "premium" line of multiparts. The 12" Battle Forces are a more apt comparison. I honestly can't directly compare the value propositions of those 90s-noughties sets, though, since I bought those locally, and now import my
SC boxes.
And yes,
GW's models are still expensive. Insanely so in many cases. And that's not even counting me being an Aussie (though I import my
GW models, the embargo can go feth itself).
Ultimately though, you can rage all you like.
GW doesn't care that much, and as someone who stopped buying
GW stuff for a few years, I don't care either. I mean, you're an intelligent adult. You can buy (or not buy) whatever you like, and you can play (or not play) whatever you like as well. I haven't played
40k since ....5th? I haven't played
WHFB since 4th or maybe 5th (a bloody long time ago). I've been playing Kings of War, SAGA, etc since then. I've got my Bolt Action, my Lion/Dragon Rampant, and a stack of other Osprey and Warlord rulesets and more besides. SBH, X-Wing, WarPath, Terminator, Wrath of Kings, Hell Dorado, Judge Dredd, Darklands, Blood Eagle.. I haven't read let alone played them all, but I've greatly enjoyed supporting smaller companies and alternative products, and I still do to this day.
However, I've played and enjoyed a couple of games of
AoS. I don't care for or about the background, but the rules are fine and give me another way to use my models. The stupidity/insult phase of the
AoS game is in the past (Kirby again) and they've made efforts to get past that. I like the look of Nu-
40k. Certainly a lot more than the off-putting nightmare clusterfeth of 6th-7th, so I'll happily give it a go again.
if you, Fenrir, Korinov, et al choose not to buy their models or play their games, than that's a fair and reasonable choice. It's one I myself made for quite a few years until somewhat recently. I was praying for
GW to go down and for Hasbro to buy them out, to be quite honest. Anything had to be better than what they had become. At this point, they've shown enough that I'm ok to buy (from alt sources) and play again. If I become unhappy with it all, I'll stop. Again.
I think one of the main issues with this thread was the emotive language used in the
OP, which was a bit too fawning
IMO. Thus a reaction is spawned and the rage-hate comes out. Here's my take on it. Legitimate complaints are always justified. The trick is not getting so invested in them and bent out of shape that you come across as a bitter ex or even a psycho ex, which happens a
wee bit too often, especially on the internets. It reveals a bit to much emotional investment in things that people claim to not care about anymore. Much better to instead to choose not to care much or follow
GW, and instead invest that energy in supporting the games and companies that you prefer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 
-Loki- wrote:
Korinov wrote:A lie?
Is this a joke?
Yeah, old stuff has been bundled together and received small discounts. Care to see what's happening with new models? 40€ Rubric Marines? 45€ Wulfen (five models)? 45€
TS sorcerers (three models)? 29€ Kharn (a single infantry model)? These are NOT exceptions to the rule, it's happening with pretty much every new release. It's absurdly insane in comparison to what every other company is doing in regards to plastic models.
Can't wait to see what's going to happen with the first models during new edition. Gonna be surprised if the Death Guard models aren't at least as expensive as the Wulfen.
I see this reasoning a lot. 'The bundles make
40k cheap'. They don't. They make
starting 40k cheap. But no one is simply buying 2-3 bundles and calling it a day. Once you have bought a couple of 'discounted' bundles, you'll want to spice it up with more interesting units, and then you're back to paying their standard, absurd pricing.
Here's the thing. If
40k (or
GW's Fantasy) models are too expensive for you, then don't buy the models. What I mean by that isn't "you can't afford it, you pauper", because
we're not 12 years old.
*NSFW* I mean if the price is more than you're willing to pay/the price is not worthwhile for you personally. If you want to play but aren't ok with paying the asking price, there are
tons of proxies out there. Most (sadly) attempt to follow
GW"s pricing model, but don't manage to attract quite the premium price that
GW does, though some outstrip
GW's prices for a lot of stuff. That's without discussing "alternative" models from China, either, which seems to often come up but we won't get into here.
Hell, if you don't want to pay for the rules, then it's pretty easy to get around
that,
Because internet.
Or you can just play Warpath instead, with Mantic's models. Or Antares, with Warlord's models. Or any other game, including the ones discussed here, with the models that you have or like or find reasonably priced.
I guess what I'm saying is that no-one is obliged to pay more than they're willing to for models, or play with rules they dislike. But my the same token, no-one is entitled to Kharn for $5 either.
I'm going to use the "Ferrari argument". You can call it the "Apple" argument just as easily. You don't
need one and aren't
entitled to one. It's a premium product at a premium price. If you don't think it's worth that premium, then don't pay it. It might not even be the best fit for your needs. You might have a similar product that works just as well or better for you. A Ferrari isn't the best for for me to get to work, and I'm not fond of iTunes or Apple, so I don't have either. I personally can't afford the Ferrari, and I don't think the iPad/iPhone are worth the money for what they do. At the same time, I don't feel obliged nor entitled to either of them, and instead I pretty much ignore both, and still don't give a gak if others want to buy them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 
Torga_DW wrote:I would also point out that while their 'start playing' boxes represent an overall savings, their individual contents are very hit and miss as to performance in the game. Look at the marine starter boxes for 7th - a tactical squad equivalent, a termie
hq and a dreadnought/baal predator. They may be more viable in 8th (or not, we'll see how it goes) but for 7th they were sub-optimal units. It felt more like a way to shift low-selling kits than it did to encourage entry into the game.
Having another look at what's available, the eldar one seems decent due to the scat bikes, the space wolves due to the thunder wolves, and the tyranids due to the flyrant. But in most cases it would still work out cheaper to buy the individual models and not pay extra for the suboptimal discounted models.
I really don't think they were sitting on mountains of plastic that they needed to shift. They control their own production facilities. They're not placing orders to China (excepting the bases, and a few specific items) or even Renedra and hoping that they can manage to sell them.
The whole "optimal or GTFO" attitude is the opposite of why I'm personally in this hobby, and is an unfortunate melding of a gamer attitude that I detest with the sheer fething laziness and incompetence of
GW's rules writers for so,
so many years. Balance is good, however - and while a game with this many moving parts will never be 100% balanced, improved balance and the ability to easily update point costs are big pluses to myself in getting me interested in
40k again.
Automatically Appended Next Post: -Loki- wrote:tneva82 wrote: -Loki- wrote:
You don't have rank and file in Infinity. And yes, it's metal, so individual models are more expensive because production costs are higher - molds need to be replaced frequently, the material is more expensive.
Okay so metal. No wonder.Plastic models you sell only one or maybe two per customer is NEVER going to be as cheap as metal model unless there's new breakthrough in plastic production. End of story.
Then why can smaller companies sell individual models for less? Wyrd are by no means cheap, but their individual models are a quarter of the cost in Australia.
Regional pricing. Which as I'm sure you'll agree with me, is
bs.
While I make the choice to buy
GW products again these days, I also make the choice to purchase from overseas. It'd be nice to buy locally, but as with
so much other stuff in this country well beyond toy soldiers, manufacturer and middleman greed inflate the price to unreasonable levels. Regardless of what Gerry Harvey thinks. Battlefront/Flames of War stuff is almost as bad as
GW, and even "reasonable" stuff like Warlord etc is sold for silly levels of markup locally compared to purchasing directly from Warlord or especially indie retailers. Once again, even
beyond Gerry and Malcolm's 10%.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 
Pacific wrote:
From an external perspective, I'm glad for the newcomers coming into wargaming via a
GW store and for people that will only ever sample the one game. Think it's a good thing that there seems to be some modicum of attempt to balance and make a fun, less unwieldy system.
More players into the hobby via
GW is still ultimately a good thing for all of us, and the other companies in the space. How many of
us and the current historical players got started with
40k or
WHFB before getting into WW2 or Napoleonics or Ancients or Dark Ages or other Fantasy/Sci-Fi options etc as we got older?
