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I'm surprised that nobody has posted this yet.

Key highlights:

1. GW is aware just how OP 7th edition chaos daemons are...at least, that's the sense that I got from it.

2. Since Galef has been talking about this, he'll be interested to read, and I quote:

"Have some Reinforcement Points for Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors as well, as these still split out of their parent unit like a series of Russian Dolls and are great for grabbing objectives and keeping enemy units busy long after other units would have been destroyed."

So. No. No free models for you.

3. Tzeentch no longer confers a reroll. Instead, he confers a flat +1 to invuln saves. Which leads me to...

4. The Lord of Change either has a 4+ invuln save or a 3+ invuln save.

"Tzeentch grants his minions the ability of Ephemeral Form, giving his Daemons +1 to their invulnerable saves. Wow, that’s good! A Lord of Change with that boost will be quite powerful indeed, with a 4+ invulnerable save and SIXTEEN wounds! "

Is that a 4+ before or after the +1 Tzeentch bonus was conferred?

5. Nurgle is annoying as ever.

6. Khorne is looking good.

7. Slaneesh might be viable.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/13/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-chaos-daemons/

 Traditio wrote:
I'm surprised that nobody has posted this yet.

They have, it's been discussed in the N+R thread since seconds after it got posted, it's just that everything gets duplicated down here in discussions and I'm guessing the Mods have given up on policing people not posting stuff in the right place until 8th is released as people create a thread about anything that enters their head right now.

 Traditio wrote:


4. The Lord of Change either has a 4+ invuln save or a 3+ invuln save.

"Tzeentch grants his minions the ability of Ephemeral Form, giving his Daemons +1 to their invulnerable saves. Wow, that’s good! A Lord of Change with that boost will be quite powerful indeed, with a 4+ invulnerable save and SIXTEEN wounds! "

Is that a 4+ before or after the +1 Tzeentch bonus was conferred?

"WITH THAT BOOST" suggests they've already answered that: 5++ base, 4++ with the boost.

One thing that struck me from this was that they said 'reinforcement points' are needed for horrors to split. Horrors definitely needed toning down, and sounds like this has been achieved through this mechanic.

But does this mean that now points are kept in reserve instead of units? Sorry if this isn't new news, but it's the first I've heard of it.

Yes. You set aside points for summoning. And splitting it seems.

-Tzeentch units have a+1invuln. That the LoC having a 4+invuln infers a couple of possibilities: either the daemon special rule no longer exists, or it does but daemons no longer have a default 5++, as if they did then ALL Tzeentch units would have a 4++ by default. Third possibility is that they do have all have a default 4++, and Frankie's intention was to highlight the 16 wounds moreso then the 4++. I wonder if Fateweaver now has a 3++ then.

-If Khorne daemons have +1 strength AND +1 attack whether they charge OR get charged, meaning that they will basically always have +1 attack and +1 strength, why make this a special rule, instead of just adding +1 strength and attack to their statline? My gut feeling is that in reality nothing's changed, and Khorne units get +1 strength and attack if they charge, but only get +1 attack of they get charged.

-If Slaanesh units only get nu-rending when on large squads then this is ultimately a net nerf to them compared to their old rules. At i5 they were already hitting before 90% of units in the game, so *almost* always hitting first isn't much of a change. Meanwhile requiring large squad sizes to get Graceful Killers makes MSU daemonettes and Seeker squads seem pretty useless.

-Nurglings have infiltrate and FnP. Nothing particularly new here.

Since I run mono Nurgle it's nice to see my Nurglings getting their FNP back. Hopefully this applies to all Nurgle daemons, because it was a bit of a blow to lose it with the current dex, and take a point of toughness loss at the same time for a lot of units. Granted the points cost dropped too, mostly, but Nurgle is supposed to be the Bullet sponge

 BlaxicanX wrote:

-If Slaanesh units only get nu-rending when on large squads then this is ultimately a net nerf to them compared to their old rules. At i5 they were already hitting before 90% of units in the game, so *almost* always hitting first isn't much of a change. Meanwhile requiring large squad sizes to get Graceful Killers makes MSU daemonettes and Seeker squads seem pretty useless.
.

The "nu-rending" is on the Daemonettes' claws.
They get an extra attack if they have 20+ in the unit.

I am not convinced that's so great for them, because Daemonettes are made of wet tissue paper and thus won't stay over 20 strong very long...

I would not be supersized if daemons got some serious nerfs. Since the article started with the competitive scene daemon abuse and made it sound as a rule not the exception of current daemon lists.

Oh okay, I misread that.

Yeah that seems a bit rough unless we get some serious dage mitigation abilities ala invisibility, or assault from deep-striking becomes a thing.

I wonder what the max unit size for them are now.

Who perhaps they drop the concept of max unit size ; )

 oldzoggy wrote:
I would not be supersized if daemons got some serious nerfs. Since the article started with the competitive scene daemon abuse and made it sound as a rule not the exception of current daemon lists.

Actually they need some serious buffs. Sure, there's a couple of builds that have been strong, but there's whole swathes of the current Codex that you'd never take outside of fluff reasons.

-If Khorne daemons have +1 strength AND +1 attack whether they charge OR get charged, meaning that they will basically always have +1 attack and +1 strength, why make this a special rule, instead of just adding +1 strength and attack to their statline? My gut feeling is that in reality nothing's changed, and Khorne units get +1 strength and attack if they charge, but only get +1 attack of they get charged.

I assume that the bonus only applies to the first round of combat.

-Nurglings have infiltrate and FnP. Nothing particularly new here.

This is interesting:

The article seemed to suggest (though did not outright state) that nurglings will be able to infiltrate and charge in the same turn, no?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
I would not be supersized if daemons got some serious nerfs. Since the article started with the competitive scene daemon abuse and made it sound as a rule not the exception of current daemon lists.

Actually they need some serious buffs. Sure, there's a couple of builds that have been strong, but there's whole swathes of the current Codex that you'd never take outside of fluff reasons.

Thats basically the situation of every "OP" faction. Eldar, Tau and Marines only have OP some specific build, normally based in 1-2 OP units or detachments. In general, the balance of 40K was as bad between codexs as just in every codex internally. Every factions need buffs and nerfs, but in different things/aspects/units, to be better balanced internally and externally.

 Traditio wrote:

-If Khorne daemons have +1 strength AND +1 attack whether they charge OR get charged, meaning that they will basically always have +1 attack and +1 strength, why make this a special rule, instead of just adding +1 strength and attack to their statline? My gut feeling is that in reality nothing's changed, and Khorne units get +1 strength and attack if they charge, but only get +1 attack of they get charged.

I assume that the bonus only applies to the first round of combat.

Alright lads, you've made your point: it is too early in the morning for me to be thinking critically about this information I'm gonna go sit down now lol

 BlaxicanX wrote:

-If Khorne daemons have +1 strength AND +1 attack whether they charge OR get charged, meaning that they will basically always have +1 attack and +1 strength, why make this a special rule, instead of just adding +1 strength and attack to their statline? My gut feeling is that in reality nothing's changed, and Khorne units get +1 strength and attack if they charge, but only get +1 attack of they get charged.

A)Combats can have more than one round

B) An enemy unit could pile-in on the bloodletters by having charged a unit within 3''.

USRs NO LONGER EXIST

by the way

Khorne gives Rage, Furious Charge, and Counter Attack
Nurgle gives Feel No Pain...

Oh and Daemonettes have Rend

Talamare wrote:Oh and Daemonettes have Rend

Rend -4, not Rend -3.

Daemonettes actually have an ability which is better than rend. They get the equivalent of AP 1 on 6s rather than AP 2.

 Traditio wrote:

Talamare wrote:Oh and Daemonettes have Rend

Rend -4, Rend -3.

Daemonettes actually have an ability which is better than rend. They get the equivalent of AP 1 on 6s rather than AP 2.

It's effectively the same, even if there is a slight amount of translation

 Talamare wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Talamare wrote:Oh and Daemonettes have Rend

Rend -4, Rend -3.
Daemonettes actually have an ability which is better than rend. They get the equivalent of AP 1 on 6s rather than AP 2.

It's effectively the same, even if there is a slight amount of translation

It will be a tiny bit worse against 2+ saves (they'll be getting a 6) Terminators will rejoice.

 Galas wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
I would not be supersized if daemons got some serious nerfs. Since the article started with the competitive scene daemon abuse and made it sound as a rule not the exception of current daemon lists.

Actually they need some serious buffs. Sure, there's a couple of builds that have been strong, but there's whole swathes of the current Codex that you'd never take outside of fluff reasons.

Thats basically the situation of every "OP" faction. Eldar, Tau and Marines only have OP some specific build, normally based in 1-2 OP units or detachments. In general, the balance of 40K was as bad between codexs as just in every codex internally. Every factions need buffs and nerfs, but in different things/aspects/units, to be better balanced internally and externally.

You're right, of course, balance is awful currently whichever way you look at it, internal or external, but I'd argue Daemons are more tied to certain builds than others, purely because all the random means you've got to build to mitigate it, whereas you don't have to take an extra unit of Grav Cents in a Marine army to make sure one of them turns up with the correct armament!

My point is... They should have just kept some of the basic USRs...

Because APPARENTLY THEY STILL EXIST...

 Talamare wrote:
USRs NO LONGER EXIST

by the way

Khorne gives Rage, Furious Charge, and Counter Attack
Nurgle gives Feel No Pain...

Oh and Daemonettes have Rend

You know that it's not what the rules did that make them usrs right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
I would not be supersized if daemons got some serious nerfs. Since the article started with the competitive scene daemon abuse and made it sound as a rule not the exception of current daemon lists.

Actually they need some serious buffs. Sure, there's a couple of builds that have been strong, but there's whole swathes of the current Codex that you'd never take outside of fluff reasons.

Thats basically the situation of every "OP" faction. Eldar, Tau and Marines only have OP some specific build, normally based in 1-2 OP units or detachments. In general, the balance of 40K was as bad between codexs as just in every codex internally. Every factions need buffs and nerfs, but in different things/aspects/units, to be better balanced internally and externally.

You're right, of course, balance is awful currently whichever way you look at it, internal or external, but I'd argue Daemons are more tied to certain builds than others, purely because all the random means you've got to build to mitigate it, whereas you don't have to take an extra unit of Grav Cents in a Marine army to make sure one of them turns up with the correct armament!

Daemons are the most unpleasant army in the game to play against. 2++ rerollable invul saves on any unit they feel needed it. Blech, rather play taudar.

 Talamare wrote:
My point is... They should have just kept some of the basic USRs...

Because APPARENTLY THEY STILL EXIST...

You.. Do know that USR's are Universal Special Rules right? Because armywide rules were never counted as such, just things like Fleet of Foot.

ERJAK wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
USRs NO LONGER EXIST

by the way

Khorne gives Rage, Furious Charge, and Counter Attack
Nurgle gives Feel No Pain...

Oh and Daemonettes have Rend

You know that it's not what the rules did that make them usrs right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
I would not be supersized if daemons got some serious nerfs. Since the article started with the competitive scene daemon abuse and made it sound as a rule not the exception of current daemon lists.

Actually they need some serious buffs. Sure, there's a couple of builds that have been strong, but there's whole swathes of the current Codex that you'd never take outside of fluff reasons.

Thats basically the situation of every "OP" faction. Eldar, Tau and Marines only have OP some specific build, normally based in 1-2 OP units or detachments. In general, the balance of 40K was as bad between codexs as just in every codex internally. Every factions need buffs and nerfs, but in different things/aspects/units, to be better balanced internally and externally.

You're right, of course, balance is awful currently whichever way you look at it, internal or external, but I'd argue Daemons are more tied to certain builds than others, purely because all the random means you've got to build to mitigate it, whereas you don't have to take an extra unit of Grav Cents in a Marine army to make sure one of them turns up with the correct armament!

Daemons are the most unpleasant army in the game to play against. 2++ rerollable invul saves on any unit they feel needed it. Blech, rather play taudar.

How are they getting "a 2++ re-rollable invuln on any unit that needed it"? Someone lied to you, son. The ONLY units in the codex that can even reliably get a 2++ are Tzeentch units, let alone a re-rollable. That excludes over 75% of the units in the codex.

And almost 100% of what was fielded in competitive lists...

Just about yeah, which highlights just how bad the internal balance was. In fact I think only Tyranids and space Marines may have worse internal balance.

 Azreal13 wrote:
And almost 100% of what was fielded in competitive lists...

...aaand we have a winner !

 Traditio wrote:

2. Since Galef has been talking about this, he'll be interested to read, and I quote:

"Have some Reinforcement Points for Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors as well, as these still split out of their parent unit like a series of Russian Dolls and are great for grabbing objectives and keeping enemy units busy long after other units would have been destroyed."

So. No. No free models for you.

While this is great from a balance standpoint, it literally means the Split rule will be worthless. If you are paying points for them already, why wouldn't you just deploy them as normal?

I'm personally disappointed because I bought 2 boxes of Blue/Brims and never got to play will the Split rule at all because once I new 8th was coming, I stopped playing 7th.
At least 2 boxes was all I bought.

The Tzeentch bonus sounds much better than re-roll '1s'. It means that if Daemons still get other bonuses to invuls, a 2++ re-rollable will not be possible. Just a flat 2++, if even that.
Daemonettes sound amazing this edition if they have enough attacks (charging +1 attack likely being gone after all).
The still pretty much have Rending, i.e. '6' to-wound is basically no armour for you, but what really intrigues me is that this means that they basically always ignore vehicle armour saves (as they need 6s to wound T6 or higher)

-

I'm going to ask an obvious question:

What happens if a unit of daemonettes charges a unit of daemonettes?

Does anybody else see the logical paradox that this would entail?