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newbie question here: can the honour guard's 'chapter champion' act as an HQ choice?

and if not, what is a good close combat hq choice for vanilla marines?

cheers

 benlac wrote:
newbie question here: can the honour guard's 'chapter champion' act as an HQ choice?

No.

and if not, what is a good close combat hq choice for vanilla marines?

cheers

7th edition is dead. Wait until 8th edition to find out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said:

I don't foresee Chapter Masters with stormshields and either power fists or thunder hammers ever being a "bad" option for close combat.

 benlac wrote:
newbie question here: can the honour guard's 'chapter champion' act as an HQ choice?

and if not, what is a good close combat hq choice for vanilla marines?

cheers

No, the Chapter Champion cannot be an HQ choice - only HQ choices can be. However, they can be your Warlord, if they are eligible.

Your best option (and rather generic) as a CC HQ is a Chapter Master with the Shield Eternal, Thunder Hammer, Artificer Armour mounted on a Bike, with a Command Squad accompanying, with grav-guns, storm shields, and an Apothecary.
However, as Traditio pointed out, 8th is coming soon, so what is "good" might change heavily.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Your best option (and rather generic) as a CC HQ is a Chapter Master with the Shield Eternal, Thunder Hammer, Artificer Armour mounted on a Bike, with a Command Squad accompanying, with grav-guns, storm shields, and an Apothecary.

I would like to point out the following:

1. This only applies to 7th edition. Massive nerfs may be coming in 8th edition.

2. This is already a points-expensive option. It may become even more points-expensive in 8th.

If you love the look of the model, you could field him as a captain on foot with a pair of swords. Not the most effective loadout, but one you could do. Just be sure you let your opponent know that you are using the model as a counts-as, to avoid confusion.

If you want a CC blender, a tricked out chapter master is the way to go. Chaplains are less of a personal powerhouse, but work as a force multiplier for the squad they are with. Librarians can also fill the role of buffing, but aren’t as good in a fight personally (without buffs).

well it seems the codex is a little misleading. i thought the honour guard would be easily customizable and widely available. they're hard to come by unless you're willing to shell out on eBay.
i'll probably just rock the vanguard vets instead.

 benlac wrote:
well it seems the codex is a little misleading. i thought the honour guard would be easily customizable and widely available. they're hard to come by unless you're willing to shell out on eBay.
i'll probably just rock the vanguard vets instead.

You could always kit-bash/do counts-as.

An honor guard, ruleswise, is just a power-armored marine (ok, artificer armor...but artificer armor is just really old, really well-made power armor) with x, y and z war gear options.

Yup. Basically take the fanciest bits and your box and bling up a bunch of guys. Mine are mostly sternguard bits, with a dash of vanguard, command squad, and other odds and bobs accumulated over the decades.

Sternguard legs are a good option because of the robes if you go the kit-bash route.

where's the cape on that xhampion from anyone know?

BrianDavion wrote:
where's the cape on that xhampion from anyone know?

My champ with the TH is mostly built from the new deathwatch box, including the cape. Shoulders from the command squad box, and the tabard from someplace random ( I have a ton in my bits box, almost never use them).

Another good place to get SM torsos with capes is the multipart captain. My old champ in the squad pic is sporting that one.

hm yeah that's an option. i don't have a ton of bits laying around though.

as far as melee weapons go, which one's can crack open vehicles the best? can power weapons do it fairly reliably? or is it more so the th's and pwr fists?

 benlac wrote:
hm yeah that's an option. i don't have a ton of bits laying around though.

as far as melee weapons go, which one's can crack open vehicles the best? can power weapons do it fairly reliably? or is it more so the th's and pwr fists?

In 7th edition, power maces aren't a bad choice for cracking open vehicles, since you always strike rear armor in melee combat.

So a power mace is reliably going to at least glance on a 4+ in most cases.

But again, 8th is nigh, and things are changing.

Really, any of the power weapons should be decent against vehicles in 8th, since I think that they all are going to have some kind of Rend value, and, even with S4, if you're attacking T 5-7, you'll be wounding on 5s.

Personally, I'd take a wait and see approach.

You'll want to see what their damage outputs are.

yeah, i know, i'm largely twidling my thumbs until the new edition comes out. in the meantime i'm attempting to come up with a very basic outline of what my army list might be, that i can build upon later.
essentially i have a more shooty defensive list, but want to throw in a drop pod with a squad of fairly kitted out melee guys to wreck artillery, tanks or intercept other cc squads. just trying to get a sense of how many points i'd roughly have to spend to make a reliable tank/melee wrecking crew. thunder hammers start to get expensive..

for 8th the best power weapon for vehicle cracking will the the one that does muleiple wounds, if any

 benlac wrote:

yeah, i know, i'm largely twidling my thumbs until the new edition comes out. in the meantime i'm attempting to come up with a very basic outline of what my army list might be, that i can build upon later.
essentially i have a more shooty defensive list, but want to throw in a drop pod with a squad of fairly kitted out melee guys to wreck artillery, tanks or intercept other cc squads. just trying to get a sense of how many points i'd roughly have to spend to make a reliable tank/melee wrecking crew. thunder hammers start to get expensive..

With the edition change, that’s nearly impossible to plan. In 7th you don’t really want a CC unit for that job. You land, stand around getting shot, and then the survivors can stager into anyone who didn’t move away and try to get the job done.

Honor guard are not the most flexible unit. While they can take different flavors of power weapons, the only serious AV they have the the optional TH on the champ, and trying to glance tanks rear armor with S6 spam from mauls/relic blades. And while they have a 2+, they lack an invuln.

Vanguard Vets are a lot more flexible. They get a discount on their toys, so handing out some of the big ones is less painful. And you can mix up their gear to multitask. Gan get SS to make them tankier.

Command squads are also good. Fixed squad size, and the ability to get the specialists (champ, apoth) but pay full price for their gear.

And if you just want a backfield disruption unit, there are other things that can work. Dreadnoughts in drop pods can be fun.

 benlac wrote:
well it seems the codex is a little misleading. i thought the honour guard would be easily customizable and widely available. they're hard to come by unless you're willing to shell out on eBay.
i'll probably just rock the vanguard vets instead.

And for the record, honor guard are 100% the most useless unit in the SM codex.

I thought I read somewhere that vanguard vets can charge the turn they deepstrike? if they could charge out of a drop pod, would they then be a viable option with like 3 thunderhammers to wreck enemy tanks, artillery and intercept cc units? (in 7th, and assuming this doesn't change drastically for 8th)

if my force is largely defensive, what unit would you recommend adding to deal with artillery and other long range vehicles, and to a lesser extent, intercept them when they try to flank?
Dreadnought in a drop pod? which configuration in 7th was best for that? (to give me some idea, I know it will change)
or is artillery & other long range weaponry not really something you see often, or not something to worry about that much if I have long range weaponry of my own (TFC, Devastators x2, quad gun, predator, razorbacks x2, snipers) ?

 benlac wrote:
I thought I read somewhere that vanguard vets can charge the turn they deepstrike? if they could charge out of a drop pod, would they then be a viable option with like 3 thunderhammers to wreck enemy tanks, artillery and intercept cc units? (in 7th, and assuming this doesn't change drastically for 8th)

if my force is largely defensive, what unit would you recommend adding to deal with artillery and other long range vehicles, and to a lesser extent, intercept them when they try to flank?
Dreadnought in a drop pod? which configuration in 7th was best for that? (to give me some idea, I know it will change)
or is artillery & other long range weaponry not really something you see often, or not something to worry about that much if I have long range weaponry of my own (TFC, Devastators x2, quad gun, predator, razorbacks x2, snipers) ?

Vanguard Veterans could charge out of Deep Strike in the 5th Edition books. That got removed with the 6th Edition Codex update.

A Skyhammer Annihilation Force would be good to get into an enemy's backfield. Two squads of Assault Marines that can charge when they arrive (here you go!) and two Squads of Devestators that are Relentless when arriving out of their Drop Pods. It's a nasty, very powerful combo, but won't exist as we know it once 8th edition drops.

Ironclad Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods have been handy since 5th Edition. But again, 8th Edition will change a lot of things.

alright, i'll keep my eye on drop pods w/ dreadnoughts when the new ed rolls out.

if vanguard could charge out when they landed, you think it'd be better to give them grav pistols or th's to bring down tanks? assuming those stats stay similar to what they are now.
or in this case would you still go dreadnought?

 benlac wrote:
alright, i'll keep my eye on drop pods w/ dreadnoughts when the new ed rolls out.

if vanguard could charge out when they landed, you think it'd be better to give them grav pistols or th's to bring down tanks? assuming those stats stay similar to what they are now.
or in this case would you still go dreadnought?

I really like Dreadnoughts, so that's what I would go with

For Grav-pistols or Thunder Hammers? I would definitely wait until 8th comes out for that decision. The changes to Grav may make them less effective against vehicles, or more effective.

ERJAK wrote:

 benlac wrote:
well it seems the codex is a little misleading. i thought the honour guard would be easily customizable and widely available. they're hard to come by unless you're willing to shell out on eBay.
i'll probably just rock the vanguard vets instead.

And for the record, honor guard are 100% the most useless unit in the SM codex.

While CC in general is in a bad spot in 7th, that’s a bit of hyperbole. I’ve fielded them with good success a number of times. I’d take them before units like assault cents, servitors, tactical terminators, and probably a few other units I don’t think about.

Of the CC units, they fill a solid niche.

It looks like honour guard will provide some sort of protection for characters in 8th edition, from snipers.