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Now the core rules for 8th have been leaked is anyone else bothered by the change to terrain application.

I'm happy with having a save modifier rather than a separate save, the thing that bothers me is that in order for a unit to make use of the terrain the whole unit needs to be in or on the terrain...

Makes no sense to me

It's a little sparse, but remember - these are just the simple, basic rules. I'm sure in the advanced rules, that will have the campaign supplement books rolled into it (Planet Strike, Cities of Death, etc.), we may see more of a nuanced rule-set where terrain will be much more granular.

At least that is my desperate hope.

it has to do with the fact they are moving to defender allocating the wounds. If you allowed for partial units in cover then the defender would just always allocate wounds to models in cover first effectively increasing the whole unit's durability instead of just the models in cover.

Requiring the whole unit to be in the cover prevents this game abuse and helps the game keep speed (as you won't have to slow down and roll saves by model to account for the difference in saves)

If your unit gets shot up, just eliminate the trailing troopers until the only remaining guys are in cover. Like magic! now the whole squad is in cover.

Meh, the other way was the whole unit got it for the front guy having a toe in which wasn't much better tbh.

Personally I like it:

It's better than toe in cover saves where one model in cover gives the whole unit a bonus save,

It's also better than 50%/25% cover as that can lead to arguments "actually that model is only 24% obscured".

 mrhappyface wrote:
Personally I like it:

It's better than toe in cover saves where one model in cover gives the whole unit a bonus save,

It's also better than 50%/25% cover as that can lead to arguments "actually that model is only 24% obscured".

I agree with this. It keeps things simple and improves speed of play. +1 save is still a big deal.

Let's not forget camo cloaks. Most likely these will provide a cover save bonus, too.

Gunline players love it I bet, since 5 dudes can stand in a forest all day. It's worthless to units that actually need it, like boyz and gaunts. We've come to a point where assault armies are literally better off playing on an empty table.

To me, just with the "Cities of death" article, they have convinced to play all of my games with that pack of Advanced rules. And we already know the terrain rules are much better in that system that in the barebones free rules. So I'm all on it!

I like the simplicity of it, and the restrictions to infantry rather than all models benefitting from it by default.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/421665-.html

In the picture above, you do not get a cover save right?

Also, different scenario but still want clarity: if your whole unit is behind a wall that covers 2/3 of their body LoS, no one gets cover right?

Basic rules say if a unit is touching or in terrain (like area terrain) they get +1 to their save. % of concealment means nothing to the new system.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Basic rules say if a unit is touching or in terrain (like area terrain) they get +1 to their save. % of concealment means nothing to the new system.

Thanks, and so is the general rule that if they're touching a wall like that with their base they're 'in' the terrain?

DevilsPox wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Basic rules say if a unit is touching or in terrain (like area terrain) they get +1 to their save. % of concealment means nothing to the new system.

Thanks, and so is the general rule that if they're touching a wall like that with their base they're 'in' the terrain?

Might be terrain specific stuff or something you houserule. Dunno yet regarding that specific terrain peice.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

DevilsPox wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Basic rules say if a unit is touching or in terrain (like area terrain) they get +1 to their save. % of concealment means nothing to the new system.

Thanks, and so is the general rule that if they're touching a wall like that with their base they're 'in' the terrain?

Might be terrain specific stuff or something you houserule. Dunno yet regarding that specific terrain peice.

I'm just wondering if terrain like Aegis Defense Lines are worth anything any more?

DevilsPox wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

DevilsPox wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Basic rules say if a unit is touching or in terrain (like area terrain) they get +1 to their save. % of concealment means nothing to the new system.

Thanks, and so is the general rule that if they're touching a wall like that with their base they're 'in' the terrain?

Might be terrain specific stuff or something you houserule. Dunno yet regarding that specific terrain peice.

I'm just wondering if terrain like Aegis Defense Lines are worth anything any more?

Depends on a few things - we don't know anything about ignores cover yet.

Whelp, I'm going to have Fun(TM) trying to get thirty ork boyz into a piece of terrain.

I never liked cover as a modifier because it helps elite armies more than horde ones (the ones who need cover the most!), and this particular change makes that especially so.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Whelp, I'm going to have Fun(TM) trying to get thirty ork boyz into a piece of terrain.

I never liked cover as a modifier because it helps elite armies more than horde ones (the ones who need cover the most!), and this particular change makes that especially so.

Forget cover if your an orc player you'll have to make do with 6+fnp and the invulnerable save.

Venomthropes and Malanthropes are going to be much more valuable to Nids. Luckily we have so much easier access to elite slots.

Well since cover doesn't slow your movement any more, horde and melee armies will just be glorying in the triumphant return of forests and rock gardens. Area terrain is gonna party like it's 4th edition!

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

DevilsPox wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

DevilsPox wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Basic rules say if a unit is touching or in terrain (like area terrain) they get +1 to their save. % of concealment means nothing to the new system.

Thanks, and so is the general rule that if they're touching a wall like that with their base they're 'in' the terrain?

Might be terrain specific stuff or something you houserule. Dunno yet regarding that specific terrain peice.

I'm just wondering if terrain like Aegis Defense Lines are worth anything any more?

Depends on a few things - we don't know anything about ignores cover yet.

Or the rules for the Argis Defense Line.

For real I'm going to need all 30 Boyz in a unit to be inside a Ruin to get any cover save? Even if I manage to do that then my save becomes 5+ and is changed back to 6+ or nothing at all by most weapons in the game? Sounds terrible.

xlDuke wrote:
Even if I manage to do that then my save becomes 5+ and is changed back to 6+ or nothing at all by most weapons in the game? Sounds terrible.

Where are you getting "most weapons in the game" from?

for orcs sure, elite armies are going to enjoy it.

 GreenShoes wrote:
Well since cover doesn't slow your movement any more, horde and melee armies will just be glorying in the triumphant return of forests and rock gardens. Area terrain is gonna party like it's 4th edition!

No it's not since it's all completely transparent and might as well not be there.

 Lance845 wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
Even if I manage to do that then my save becomes 5+ and is changed back to 6+ or nothing at all by most weapons in the game? Sounds terrible.

Where are you getting "most weapons in the game" from?

From my head. Aren't most weapons in the game AP4+? If not, I'll rephrase:

Even if I manage to do that then my save becomes 5+ and is changed back to 6+ or nothing at all by a large and significant amount of weapons in the game? Sounds terrible.

Can you offer consolation or answers, friend?

I think the bulk of weapons on the table are going to have no AP and it will mostly be melee and specialist weapons or powerful and limited elite units that bring ap weapons as standard.

It's not like a IOM force is going to be made up entirely of Las Cannons. It's going to be bolters, chainswords, and lasguns with a smattering of specialist guns.

You can have a unit of 5-10 tac marines the bulk of which will have bolters and you will get your full save. Or it will be 3-5 primaris who will have ap-1 for a significant price hike.

I think a blob of 20-30 boys can soak a couple hits and drop a ton of damage onto them.

I base this on the weapon profiles we have seen so far.
I also don't know if Orks are going to keep their 6+ save. I wouldn't be too surprised if all the 6+ save models got a small bump to 5+. But that all remains to be seen.

I hope you're right but in this edition it isn't mostly Bolters we face, it's the more powerful weapons mounted on MCs and vehicles, as well as man-portable heavy weapons which will now be more effective on the move. I hope you're right man but for an army that relies so heavily on cover it's pretty disappointing to hear I won't be benefitting from it much at all, while the more resilient models with high armour saves I already struggle to deal with will be becoming tougher to damage at range.

The new Primaris Dreadnought makes it pretty clear GW will continue to hand out absurd amounts of firepower to new models like candy.

Let's not forget tau firing ten weapons on the mechs.