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So the trusty boltgun took a nerf in 8th with it's 0AP. This opens up an interesting situation. Boltguns, the weapon marines used to mow down all sorts of "lesser" infantry is now for all intents and purposes little better than a lasgun. We can easily assume the lasgun has the samne profile but with S3 instead of 4. So one shot, rapid fire and 0AP. The extra S on the bolter isn't going to make a huge difference, not when it can no longer cut through flak armour. So this means that small arms fire, or infantry on infantry action is going to mean a lot less casualties all around as most models will get their armour saves all the time unless hit by heavy weapons. Throw in cover saves boosting those armour saves and we're going to see a lot less casualties to infantry models, at least from other infantry.

So if infantry are going to be fairly ineffective at killing other infantry will there be much point taking a lot of troop units? Marines were good because their bolters could pump out good damage by themselves but with what we know right now in 8th a simple guardsman in even the sllghtest bit of cover (+1 cover save) is going to be able to save half of any wounds caused by bolter shots. In good cover you're gonna struggle to kill many at all. It seems in transitioning vehicles out of the awful spot they were in they've gimped the trusty bolter of it's armour-piercing capability. Of course you can't give the bolter AP -1 or -2 now because then it'd rip through tanks too and force the heavy bolter to go -3. I wonder if bolter weapons get a special rule that allows them to ignore infantry armour of 5+ or worse? Lets hope so.

They'll be fine. It's seeing no change out of cover for anything 4+ or better, which is all but three factions. Guardsmen in cover also see no change: they're going from a 4+ cover save to 5+ armor with a +1 cover bonus, still a 4+ save. So the only change the bolter is seeing is Guardsmen out of cover getting a 5+, and that's a fairly small difference.

The strength of basic infantry weapons has always been in volume of fire. With infantry apparently getting cheaper across the board, vehicles getting more expensive, and everything wounding on 6, that strength will be more pronounced than ever.

It's not so much a nerf of bolters than a buff of t-shirt wearing troops (orks, guardsmen, gaunts etc.). They're still as effective as before against medium infantry.
Covers do grant +1 save to infantry, but every model has to be in cover for the unit to benefit from it. So big blobs will actually struggle to get the bonus.

On the other side, tac marine's heavy and special weapons are, on average, much better. And since everyone gets split fire, you can use them much more effectively. Since the unit's owner allocates wounds, you can also easily keep your precious weapons alive for a while.

With the changes to rapid fire, you can now fire bolters and then charge. You can then use pistols to fire inside combat before you take your attacks. The basic marine is going to be pretty effective at moving up and assaulting something like Guardsmen.

My Guardsmen have become a lot tougher (I did Camo Cloaks + Carapace for fluff) now that their gear combines.
4+ armour, becomes 3+ save in the open due to cloaks.
In cover 2+.

It looks like cloaks aren't going to work in the open anymore though. In the Space Marine index leak, it says that camo cloaks only "add +2 to armor saves when in cover instead of +1".

So carapace vets with cloaks would be 4+ in the open, 2+ in cover.

I wonder if camo netting on vehicles will get the same change, especially if intervening models no longer count as cover. Since most IG vehicles seem like they'll be getting 3+ save, camo netting still giving a +1 in the open would be REALLY nice. And not doing so would be kind of lame, since it seems like it might be rather hard to get a vehicle into cover in 8th.

So either camo netting will provide a really awesome benefit all the time, or will be difficult to get any benefit from at all...

I think it is a nod to horde armies and assault armies like tyranids and orks who have had a really rough time the last 2 editions. they would run across the board, take casualties, take overwatch and constantly be out of range. IG and tau pathfinders were almost always in cover anyway as were elder guardians the other main noteworthy 5+ armor save int the game.

*add* now thematically I would have to say orks and tyranid gaunts should have 6+ np rather than armor at all. but apparently gw disagrees with the sentiment, could then give rend -1 to bolters fairly.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I think it is a nod to horde armies and assault armies like tyranids and orks who have had a really rough time the last 2 editions. they would run across the board, take casualties, take overwatch and constantly be out of range. IG and tau pathfinders were almost always in cover anyway as were elder guardians the other main noteworthy 5+ armor save int the game.

*add* now thematically I would have to say orks and tyranid gaunts should have 6+ np rather than armor at all. but apparently gw disagrees with the sentiment, could then give rend -1 to bolters fairly.

I disagree thematically orks wear some armor a lot and nids have a tough exoskeleton. That said the orks should shrug off fire due to a high toughness as well.

Its time like these I'm glad the average player has zero influence on designing and balancing a game.

Cause if we went off the fluff to every detail for every weapon and statline, there wouldn't be much of a game.

Your bolters are fine. Your marines are fine. Why not just wait until you have ALL the rules and done some math to prove one way or another your army has been unfairly nerfed.

 Blacksails wrote:
Your bolters are fine. Your marines are fine.

I actually think that a Rhino rush, double bolter tap and charge could be quite a devastating blow. I guess I am planing to run hundreds of Guardsmen towards the enemy though, so YMMV.

Still expect them to be relevant, but might require some reinforcement from other aspects of my list.

keep this in mind. Seems lighter vehicles MCs and dreadnoughts are T7 the lasgun, etc need 6s to wound while the boltgun is twice as good vs light vehicles.

Against t8 vehicles they have the same chance as the LaserGun. So there is some differentiating between the Bolter and s3 equips

wes

Saying a boltgun is no better than a lasgun because it has 1 more strength is just short sighted.

A str 4 Boltgun wounds MEQ on a 4+ and Guard on a 3+

A str 3 Lasgun wounds MEQ on a 5+ and Guard on a 4+

That 1 extra strength is at a pretty critical tipping point for how effective that gun will be against the bulk of all infantry, and most models in general, in the entire game.

 Lance845 wrote:
Saying a boltgun is no better than a lasgun because it has 1 more strength is just short sighted.

A str 4 Boltgun wounds MEQ on a 4+ and Guard on a 3+

A str 3 Lasgun wounds MEQ on a 5+ and Guard on a 4+

That 1 extra strength is at a pretty critical tipping point for how effective that gun will be against the bulk of all infantry, and most models in general, in the entire game.

This is true. Against T5 it's not gonna be any difference, but the fact is that most units in the game are and will still be either T3 or T4. As a result of that, having a S3 or S4 weapon makes a big difference, since it's so easy to tip between "less," "equal," or "more" strength than toughness in that spectrum.

Guard are going to be scary on weight of dice alone.

 Otto Weston wrote:
My Guardsmen have become a lot tougher (I did Camo Cloaks + Carapace for fluff) now that their gear combines.
4+ armour, becomes 3+ save in the open due to cloaks.
In cover 2+.

Will cloaks be able to stack with cover this edition? Do we even know if cloaks still give +1 to save?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
My Guardsmen have become a lot tougher (I did Camo Cloaks + Carapace for fluff) now that their gear combines.
4+ armour, becomes 3+ save in the open due to cloaks.
In cover 2+.

Will cloaks be able to stack with cover this edition? Do we even know if cloaks still give +1 to save?

I read somewhere... I think it was a SM leak... that camo cloaks turn terrain bonus from +1 to +2. So no bonus in the open but an additional +1 the moment they hit terrain.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Guard are going to be scary on weight of dice alone.

Well at least you don't have to worry about frfsrf on a 50 man blob, as there are no blobs! There are still 50 man conscripts but they only hit on a 5+.