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So with the changes leaked, how are we taking our bikes now?
Unit size? Weapons?

As a Saim-Hann player since 4E, I intend to continue playing bikes as my 'core' So that means I'll be using the Fast Attack detachment (I forget the name) since they as FA choices now
Also, I think Scatterbikes are dead. I am more than fine with this as I liked Shuricannons better anyway
Since Scatters are Heavy, Windriders will be suffering that -1 to hit when the move
Add to this that Battle Focus allows Eldar to Advance and fire Assault weapons without the -1 to hit, and I think you can see which of the 2 weapons is the best choice.

Can anyone tell me why a player would ever take Twin Catapults on Windriders? There is only a 2pt difference between Twin Cats and Shuricannon, yet you get twice the range and better chances to wound.

Oh, and with LD7, I don't see any reason to take units larger than 3.

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Shuriken Cannons are going to be the best choice for Windriders by far. Very glad I magnetized my jetbikes so I can switch out.

The TL Catapults are weird. I might have forgiven them if they were 5 points each. However, that would have made the Windrider cheaper than a base Reaver.

Twin catapults for sure, no way I would pay the heavy price of the heavy weapons now that you get -1 to hit for moving, and no JSJ with a 4+ save. Why when the bike can support other units with 4 s4 ap -4 on 6's shots each that continue to hit on a 3+ on the move.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Twin catapults for sure, no way I would pay the heavy price of the heavy weapons now that you get -1 to hit for moving, and no JSJ with a 4+ save. Why when the bike can support other units with 4 s4 ap -4 on 6's shots each that continue to hit on a 3+ on the move.

You might wanna check the points for that. 20ppm Windrider doesn't include the 10ppm Twin Cat. So you have to pay for it.
Twin Cat bike final cost = 30ppm
Shuricannon bike final cost = 32ppm

Edit: on a list building note, have to add 10ppm to EVERY SINGLE model that comes stock with TwinCats is going to be very annoying.
I really wish the points lists included basic wargear

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2 wounds, cheapo shuricannons. Windriders needed a nerf - not a buff.

 koooaei wrote:
2 wounds, cheapo shuricannons. Windriders needed a nerf - not a buff.

They only have a 4+ armour now, Jink & JSJ no longer exist. Sure they can no move 22" and shoot Shuikens, but the enemy can no shoot the piss out of them in return as they will be closer and in LoS.
It's a nerf and an acceptable one.

For me, I am taking twin catapults as that is what are modeled on my existing 6 Bikes. New ones will likely have Cannons. I like the option of modifying armor saves. I also think it will be much more difficult to stay at distance this edition, so the 36" range will be a moot point.

Due to morale, stay at 3 man units which means you only fail morale by losing two models and then rolling a 6.

Jink no longer exists, they suffer a hit penalty for moving with their strongest weapons, contesting is only possible if you have the same number of models on the point as your enemy so min-squads are useless, went up in points, lost a point of armor.

Anyone who seriously thinks windriders are even close to how good they used to be doesnt understand this game very well.

They dont suffer the -1 using a Shuriken Cannon. They do with the Scatter Laser.

No one mentioned how good they are compared to before.

All the special weapons went up in price. For everyone. Windriders are still close to auto-include. Which is sad.

 koooaei wrote:
All the special weapons went up in price. For everyone. Windriders are still close to auto-include. Which is sad.

Windriders were not the problem. Scatterbikes were
Basic Windriders (the TwinCat version) nearly DOUBLED in cost form 17ppm to 30ppm
Scatterbikes went from 27ppm to 35ppm, suffer -1 to hit if they move and no longer strip HPs (becuase that isn't a thing anymore)

Scatterbikes are dead this edition and basic Windriders are suicide units.
Shuricannon bikes are still decent choices and mercifully are only 5ppm more than they were before (despite being nerfed overall)

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Well, you're kinda comparing them to their 7-th broken selves. I'm thinking bout what's in 8-th. And that they're in no way nerfed. They're still extremely fast, extremely shooty and pretty tough with 2 wounds and 4+ armor for mesely ~30 pts.

Just compare their shooting to prism's shooting point-for point. They're still kinda like they used to be in 7-th. Glass cannons with lots of cannons and metal glass.

 Sarigar wrote:
They dont suffer the -1 using a Shuriken Cannon. They do with the Scatter Laser.

No one mentioned how good they are compared to before.

The claim that they were buffed is a direct comparison to what they were like before.

 Galef wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
All the special weapons went up in price. For everyone. Windriders are still close to auto-include. Which is sad.

Windriders were not the problem. Scatterbikes were
Basic Windriders (the TwinCat version) nearly DOUBLED in cost form 17ppm to 30ppm
Scatterbikes went from 27ppm to 35ppm, suffer -1 to hit if they move and no longer strip HPs (becuase that isn't a thing anymore)

Scatterbikes are dead this edition and basic Windriders are suicide units.
Shuricannon bikes are still decent choices and mercifully are only 5ppm more than they were before (despite being nerfed overall)

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Scatbikes and shuricannon bikes should have been 40 ppm under the new system. 32 ppm is still too cheap for shuricannons, I think.

There's just no pleasing some people. They could have been 50ppm and I'm sure some of you would say "they're still to cheap, they should be 60ppm"

Ridiculous

So moving on, I'll be using the Outrider detachment quite a bit this edition. Jetbikes are the only 'Troops" choice I've had for Eldar since I started playing in 4E. Well, I did have 2 min units of Dire Avengers back in 6E just to take 2 Serpents, but it never felt right.
Jetbikes are the core of my army and always will be, so I am very happy that this detachment is available. It was rather smart of GW as it satisfies all those who complained that Windriders should be Fast Attack without taking the play sytle away from Saim-Hann players.

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Except being fast attack is now meaningless.

If you can't tell, I really hate this unit. And always will at this point. I was really hoping to not see them in 8th, honestly.

You hate Windriders so much that you want them to so bad that no one brings them? Yet Eldar jetbikes are the ENTIRE reason I started playing Eldar in 4E.
I think we're done here.

Back to Tactics: Anyone plan on using Warlocks? I kind of like the idea of having 1 Warlock lead* 1-2 units of Windriders



*of course, by 'lead', I mean cower behind

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 Galef wrote:
You hate Windriders so much that you want them to so bad that no one brings them? Yet Eldar jetbikes are the ENTIRE reason I started playing Eldar in 4E.
I think we're done here.

Back to Tactics: Anyone plan on using Warlocks? I kind of like the idea of having 1 Warlock lead* 1-2 units of Windriders



*of course, by 'lead', I mean cower behind

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I'm thinking of soon foot warlocks to lead a court of the young king but foot aspect warriors do still seem squishy so will probably crumple and die. Would be nice if we could cast multiple of warlocks powers.

Unless you skip on all FA choices except bikes, including a reasonable amount of them in units of 3 would be a problem with only 1 detachment (although you can now have "free" flyers). With 2 wounds, you probably won't lose as many actual models as before, and with Ld of 7 I don't think chances to fail during Morale phase are that high.

With Fly, you can knock on the window of a passing by Stormraven and also shoot enemy in the dick after falling back from the charge, I believe?

Together with 9 shots Wave Serpents, I think Windriders are still one of the top choices for including mobile dakka in the army.

IIRC, the Outrider detachment only provides 1 CP as opposed to 3 with the Battalion detachment. Not sure how significant these will for the overall game, but something to consider.

I think Windriders being assaulted will end up being the same thing as last edition: dead Windriders.

Scatbikes still can throw out bucketloads of dice for shooting. If Ork, IG, or Tyranid horde type armies come back, it is something I will personally be evaluating.

I think the stereotypical Scatbike army will show up in early 8th edition, but players will learn they are no longer as efficient and armies will morph. I think this is a really good thing right now as there doesn't seem to be a real standout unit quite yet. In the past, reviewing army rules for about 15 minutes would yield points efficient units.
.

Windriders, along with most things... now seem pretty balanced.

The loss of JSJ and Turbo boost are the real nerfs to them.

I sat down for a while and did the math on their weapon options.

I compared all three options shooting at 4 target types. (T4 3+, T4 6+, T6 3+ and T8 3+).

As expected, the SL wins out, but not by much. Adding in points values for a single model, and comparing... the TL catapult is actually the most cost efficient, at the expense of range. Shuriken cannon 2nd. I'd encourage you guys to do some mathhammer and have a look at it.

They're not the must-takes they were, but are still handy firepower. The downside being they lost their game winning ability in turbo-boost and JSJ.

But they did gain a wound, and essentially have H&R now, which Battle focus really adds to.

Belly wrote:

I compared all three options shooting at 4 target types. (T4 3+, T4 6+, T6 3+ and T8 3+).

As expected, the SL wins out, but not by much. Adding in points values for a single model, and comparing... the TL catapult is actually the most cost efficient, at the expense of range. Shuriken cannon 2nd. I'd encourage you guys to do some mathhammer and have a look at it.

I really do not see how you came to this conclusion. In 7E, the SL and Shuricannon were VERY close in damage output in most cases. The only reason the Scatter laser was "best" was the range and extra shot. Bladestorm often made up for having 1 less shot, but never got that bonus against vehicles.
In 7E the targets that the Shuricannon was actually better against were high T models with 2+/3+ saves.
From what I've seen in 8E, this hasn't changed. BUT NOW vehicles (which Shuricannons never got Bladestorm against) now fit right into its niche target.

When you did your calculations, did you take into account that the SL will be -1 to hit most of the time? Because not moving your highly mobile jetbikes is a dumb idea.
It might work on turn 1, but you'll want to move them soon enough.
So combine the fact that SL will be -1 to hit in most cases and that the Shuricannons is AP -3 on 6s, and the Shuricannon easily does more damage against 90% of targets.
Also remember that Cover is +1 to Armour, so that AP -3 is even more useful now.

Another thing I'd like to add is that the Shuricannon is effectively longer range now than the SL. SL has a 36" threat range sitting still, or 52" on the move (-1 to hit)
Shuricannon has a 46" threat range at full BS. 16+6" Move+Advance,, 24" gun
The Twin Cat damage is irrelevant since you need to be in charge range of the enemy to use them. for only 2ppm more, you can stay a safer distance away.

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10 bikes on the move

scatter lasers
V T3
40 shots> 20 hits> 16.67 wounds before saves
V T4-5
40 shots> 20 hits> 13.33 wounds before saves
V T6
40 shots> 20 hits> 10 wounds before saves
V T7+
40 shots> 20 hits> 6.67 wounds before saves

Shurican canon
V T3
30 shots> 20 hits> 16.67 wounds before saves
V T4-5
30 shots> 20 hits> 13.4 wounds before saves
V T6
30 shots> 20 hits> 10 Wounds before saves
V T7+
30 shots> 20 hits> 6.6 wounds before saves

Shuricatapult
V T3
40 shots> 26.8 hits> 19.07 wounds before saves
V T4
40 shots> 26.8 hits> 13.4 wounds before saves
V T5-7
40 shots> 26.8 hits> 8.93 wounds before saves
V T8+
40 shots> 26.8 hits> 4.46 wounds before saves

Draw your own conclusions but they all are very close, I'd say the basic catapult wins against anything not T8+

If your not moving them, take the scatter laser obviously since you will want the extra range and shot over the shuricanon.

Personally I think they made the weapons as they are to encourage you to add a heavy weapon per 3 like before, with split fire I'd say it is the smartest decision since you are flexible against more targets, especially with split fire.


edited with fix to canon

 Red Corsair wrote:
10 bikes on the move
Shurican canon
V T3
30 shots> 15 hits> 12. 5 wounds before saves
V T4-5
30 shots> 15 hits> 10 wounds before saves
V T6
30 shots> 15 hits> 5 Wounds before saves
V T7+
30 shots> 15 hits> 5 wounds before saves

How are you only getting 15hits? Shuricannon is Assualt. So not only do they NOT suffer -1 to hit, but Battle focus allows them to Advance and fire at BS3+
You should be getting 20 hits....which is exactly the same number of hits for the SL, so the "wounds before saves" will also be the same. AP -3 on 16% of the saves and the Shuricannon does more average damage.
I see literally no reason to ever take a SL over a SC, especially for the price difference.

And as the Shuricannon is my favorite weapon, I am very much loving this change.

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I think SL have to be played alongside Cannon to determine relative usefulness. Not clear how much the differing range will affect survivability and how often SL bikes will be able to sit still to enjoy superior firepower.

Heck for a Ynnari force you might even want catapults, sacrificing survivability for maximum firepower. Unless you're up against a lot of T5.

 Galef wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
10 bikes on the move
Shurican canon
V T3
30 shots> 15 hits> 12. 5 wounds before saves
V T4-5
30 shots> 15 hits> 10 wounds before saves
V T6
30 shots> 15 hits> 5 Wounds before saves
V T7+
30 shots> 15 hits> 5 wounds before saves

How are you only getting 15hits? Shuricannon is Assualt. So not only do they NOT suffer -1 to hit, but Battle focus allows them to Advance and fire at BS3+
You should be getting 20 hits....which is exactly the same number of hits for the SL, so the "wounds before saves" will also be the same. AP -3 on 16% of the saves and the Shuricannon does more average damage.
I see literally no reason to ever take a SL over a SC, especially for the price difference.

And as the Shuricannon is my favorite weapon, I am very much loving this change.

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Bah sorry biffed the canon... figures all that math and I made an error

I fixed it above, this makes the canon and lasers even more even keel. Again though with the SL going well above when stationary and its long range I'd say all 3 are equal now.

Just read Death Guard rules and them making Plague marines troops instead of Elites. I would not be too surprised if different <Craftworlds> would make certain aspect host troops. (Wishful thinking)

personally, I am thrilled that SLs are not the "default best" option. I've always liked the Shuricannon more

And for me, the option that allows the most mobility is always better (at least when the damage output it so close).
Not only do SL have to stay still for max potential (boo), but the Shuricannon can move + advance with no penalty.
That makes a clear better choice for me.

Mixing in some Twin Cats would have been nice, but only to save points. And since it doesn't save really any (2ppm), I won't be taking that option.

Tautastic wrote:
Just read Death Guard rules and them making Plague marines troops instead of Elites. I would not be too surprised if different <Craftworlds> would make certain aspect host troops. (Wishful thinking)

Ya know, this probably is closer to a real possibility than just wish listing. We know those < > keywords are going to mean something eventually and we have confirmation by GW that Chapter tactics and Chaos Legion rules will be a thing.
We could see <Saim Hann> grant a special ability and make Windriders Troops

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 Red Corsair wrote:
10 bikes on the move

scatter lasers
V T3
40 shots> 20 hits> 16.67 wounds before saves
V T4-5
40 shots> 20 hits> 13.33 wounds before saves
V T6
40 shots> 20 hits> 10 wounds before saves
V T7+
40 shots> 20 hits> 6.67 wounds before saves

Shurican canon
V T3
30 shots> 20 hits> 16.67 wounds before saves
V T4-5
30 shots> 20 hits> 13.4 wounds before saves
V T6
30 shots> 20 hits> 10 Wounds before saves
V T7+
30 shots> 20 hits> 6.6 wounds before saves

Shuricatapult
V T3
40 shots> 26.8 hits> 19.07 wounds before saves
V T4
40 shots> 26.8 hits> 13.4 wounds before saves
V T5-7
40 shots> 26.8 hits> 8.93 wounds before saves
V T8+
40 shots> 26.8 hits> 4.46 wounds before saves

Draw your own conclusions but they all are very close, I'd say the basic catapult wins against anything not T8+

If your not moving them, take the scatter laser obviously since you will want the extra range and shot over the shuricanon.

Personally I think they made the weapons as they are to encourage you to add a heavy weapon per 3 like before, with split fire I'd say it is the smartest decision since you are flexible against more targets, especially with split fire.


edited with fix to canon

@ Red Corsair: Thanks for the breakdown. I can look at something like this and factor it into my own playstyle to determine what would work best.

About Vypers. For 96 pts you get 3 bikes with 3 cannons and 6 wounds. For 88 pts you can get a Vyper with 2 cannons, same 6 wounds, but higher toughness, 3+ save (so 2+ in terrain), and they almost but immune to Morale phase. Sure they are slower '2 inches when in full squad than bikes, but I think this is an interesting exchange to concider. As for firepower, there is an interesting gun you can place on these things - a Starcannon. For 10 pts more than 3 bikes you can get 2 shots that each can potentially do 3 damage - without any random d3-d6 slot machine bs you get on Fire Prism for example. That's 3 for SC and 6 from StarC, meaning against multi-wound models or vehicles it's like 3 bikes but with extra -3 ap. Sadly you must stand still or shoot them at BS4+, but that's where buffs and stuff come in.