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Point for discussion: why would you ever take centurions with missiles/lascannons now when they are 140pts/model when you can take a dreadnought with missiles/lascannons for 145pts/model. The only advantage centurions have is more shots with their missiles but less damage and the 2+ save whereas dreads have 8 wounds etc. etc. It seems like some of this stuff in 8th has been a bit untested

The points are completely off for a fair number of units in the Indices in my opinion.

For example, they did buff Lone Wolves but these guys are coming in at 115 with termie armour when you can get a wolf lord on a thunderwolf at 128 points!

I think your point that it is a "bit" untested is generous. The problem is that the mechanics have drastically changed and I do not think that the points formulae have been calibrated correctly.

 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Point for discussion: why would you ever take centurions with missiles/lascannons now when they are 140pts/model when you can take a dreadnought with missiles/lascannons for 145pts/model. The only advantage centurions have is more shots with their missiles but less damage and the 2+ save whereas dreads have 8 wounds etc. etc. It seems like some of this stuff in 8th has been a bit untested

I'm assuming you mean Devastator Centurions here. Now there are a few reasons why you might want Centurions:

For starters 3 Centurians can shoot up to 6 different targets. Dreadnoughts can shoot up to two.

Centurions have access to Grav.

Centurions have a 2+ save and are harder to deny saves to.

Centurions can be babysat by an Apothecary to regain D3 wounds a turn to an inujured model or a once dead model (Techpriest can fix Dreads, but can't bring dead ones back to life).

And finally, and probably the most important reason, Dreadnoughts are all Elite slot choices while Centurions are Heavy Support meaning that they don't compete with every other Elite in the book.

And none of that makes Dev Cents obviously a better choice overall, at least not in the vacuum we're talking about here. The Techmarine can't bring a Dread back from the dead, very true, but the Apothecary is only doing that on a 4+ anyway. Not a massive difference. Not when the Dread is T7 8W to the Cents T5 3Wm - that's the main difference IMO.

IDK about the slot thing. My first look through the Marine Dex I saw a lot of stiff in Hvy that I wanted, and less stuff in Elt, plus there's Force Orgs that can mitigate the slot scarcity thing anyway.

I'm not trolling btw, Cents have their uses for sure, I just don't think that one Cent stacks up that well against one Dread, that's all.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
And none of that makes Dev Cents obviously a better choice overall, at least not in the vacuum we're talking about here. The Techmarine can't bring a Dread back from the dead, very true, but the Apothecary is only doing that on a 4+ anyway. Not a massive difference. Not when the Dread is T7 8W to the Cents T5 3Wm - that's the main difference IMO.

IDK about the slot thing. My first look through the Marine Dex I saw a lot of stiff in Hvy that I wanted, and less stuff in Elt, plus there's Force Orgs that can mitigate the slot scarcity thing anyway.

I'm not trolling btw, Cents have their uses for sure, I just don't think that one Cent stacks up that well against one Dread, that's all.

1:1 isn,t really the way to compare when you're deciding between a single model and a unit that runs 3-6 models.

It is when the two models are the equivalent point cost. That's a reasonable comparison IMO.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
It is when the two models are the equivalent point cost. That's a reasonable comparison IMO.

Except it doesn,t represent the total costs to field said models properly. That,d be like comparing a Tactical Marine with a couple of points of wargear to a Sternguard and ignoring what the unit contribues to each as a whole.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
It is when the two models are the equivalent point cost. That's a reasonable comparison IMO.

Except it doesn,t represent the total costs to field said models properly. That,d be like comparing a Tactical Marine with a couple of points of wargear to a Sternguard and ignoring what the unit contribues to each as a whole.

Well, it does if the consensus is that the Dread is better (or actually either way). Multiple Dreads just cost slots, whereas multiple Cents are a tax because they come in squads ( a tax assuming you think they're worse), The difference isn't as stark as the Tac/Sternguard example IMO. There's nothing stopping someone from fielding three Dreads instead of three Cents, at which point the amount of armament and ability to split fire are about equal. I don't see where the comparison isn't accounting for "the contribution of the unit", given that you can field the same multiple of each in a Marine army pretty much without reservation. Am I missing something about what you meant there?

Note that the Dread is actually 187 points per model. I think you forgot the storm bolter and the Dreadnought combat weapon. Edit: Nevermind no they really are that cheap.

It's worth noting that the Centurions can move and shoot without penalty and deny cover bonuses. But yeah, the Centurions are going to get blown up real quick and a Dread seems like a much better buy.

Another thing to think about is you may not usually be having to choose between these two units, since they take up different force org slots.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
And none of that makes Dev Cents obviously a better choice overall, at least not in the vacuum we're talking about here. The Techmarine can't bring a Dread back from the dead, very true, but the Apothecary is only doing that on a 4+ anyway. Not a massive difference. Not when the Dread is T7 8W to the Cents T5 3Wm - that's the main difference IMO.

IDK about the slot thing. My first look through the Marine Dex I saw a lot of stiff in Hvy that I wanted, and less stuff in Elt, plus there's Force Orgs that can mitigate the slot scarcity thing anyway.

I'm not trolling btw, Cents have their uses for sure, I just don't think that one Cent stacks up that well against one Dread, that's all.

1:1 isn,t really the way to compare when you're deciding between a single model and a unit that runs 3-6 models.

What? That is exactly the way you compare these things. Based on points efficiency. You look at cost per wound, and cost per damage they inflict. If your taking 6 centurions I can take 6 dreads, and don't even start trying to claim that is difficult with the new system because it really isn't.

Dreads are not likely to recieve cover this edition. And can't get on top lvl of ruins for better view.

Dreads have:

-- 8 Wounds
-- T7
-- Take up an Elite Slot (so in the normal Force Org, you can fun them in addition to Heavy Supports -- I think this is VERY important)
-- They don't degrade as they get hurt, are just as good with 1 wound as 8.
-- Costs anywhere from 116 (ML and Assault Cannon) to 177 (Twin Las and Dreadnought Weapon + Heavy Flamer.
-- I think Common load-outs will be Las/Missile (145), Double Autocannon (136) and Autocannon or Missile + Assault Cannon (116/128).
-- If it moves, it gets worse at shooting

The Dev Centurions:

-- Are a heavy support choice (again, I think this is important)
-- Have a wider range of weapon options (Notably Grav, The Cent Missile Launcher, and the Hurricane Bolters)
-- only 2-3 wounds each
-- Better armor with a 2+, and can get in cover easier.
-- Only T5, but that is just as good VS most things as T7 now.
-- Don't lose BS for moving with heavy weapons like the dreads do.
-- Costs between 89 (HBs and Hurricane) and 140 (for 2 Las and a Cent Missile launcher.
-- I think the popular load-outs will be: All three Bolter options (89 each), 2 HB + Missiles (110 each), and Hurricane Bolters + Grav (97 each). The Missile launcher is hands down better than a Las cannon, but it costs the same. So, I don't think it is unreasonable to not take a Las cannons at all on these guys.
-- That being said, assuming you get an average of 4 shots per Missile/Las cent, a single Cent for 140 points will put out about as much firepower as a dev squad with 4 las cannons (165 points) with 2-3 less wounds but a better armor save.
-- You could spend 420 points on 3 Dev cents with ML/Plas and get 9-15 shots at up to 9 targets, which is still pretty impressive. 3 Dreads would only get 6 similar shots back. Plus, if you add in the possibilities of rerolls from captains and lietenants, and the healing / resurrection ability of apothecaries, cents get even better. Plus they only take up 1 force org slot.

So i think my end analysis the following:

Dreads are resilient shooting platforms but you trade number of shots for durability, have less options when it comes to armament, and less flexibility in target selection. They are also an elite slot, meaning they are typically in addition to whatever heavy support choices are made, not instead of them.

Dev Centurions can take more weapons and do more damage to more targets, at the cost of some durability, and have more synergy with Apothecary and HQ units (re-rolls tend to be better the more weapons you have to shoot with). In my opinion its better to contrast them VS other heavy support units ( most notably Devastators and Predators) and see what gives you the most bang for your buck,

I don't think one unit is really better than the other, but they do different things and are probably both good in the right list.

Some very good points in this thread however I still feel in most lists, the dread is better.

420pts for 3 models with a total 9 wounds is ridiculous despite the damage output; in some test games I lost the entire squad quickly due to many weapons now causing D3 or D6 damage.

I think the optimum way to go with cents with be all bolters to take out mass infantry

Compare these to Predators as well. And razorbacks feel very cheap compared to all of these.