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So, some of my friends and I myself just can't stand the new rules for 8th ed. So, we have thought of making balanced codices with the 7th ed rules (also, we would like to fix some aspects of 7th, like D force, instant death or the vehicle damage table, but mantaining the general essence of the game). We truly believe that (with some exceptions like the mentioned before) the problem with 7th ed is not on the rules, but on the codices.

We do not mean we pretend everyone not to play 8th, if you prefer 8th, we don't have any problem with that. But we still think it is not what we expected to be and we feel really dissapointed. So, as we do not know every single codex, every single unit's strong and weak points, we find very difficult to do this on our own. We do know some codices (Tyranids, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Genestealer Cults, Orkz, Space Wolves, Blood Angel, Tau and Eldar), but we do not know a lot about the rest of codices so everyone helping is welcome.

Also, I'd like to point that we wouldn't have to start from zero. We do know fanmade codices which need just a bit of testing. Also, we've got the 7th codices to have a general idea. Working with those bases, we can adapt the units to what we consider better for the meta. Obviously, we can change the codices regularly (maybe every 6 months or so?) to balance what we saw that wasn't balanced.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that this I am proposing is nothing new. Fantasy players did it when AOS was released, giving birth to the 9th Age. So, we only want to do the same, and every opinion will be taken into account.

Lastly, I just want to say: if you like 8th edition and you don't like this proposal, just ignore this post. Please do not start posting how bad or stupid this idea is. On the other hand, if you like it and you want to contribute, let us know and we will appreciate your help, and listen your suggestions.

I'd honestly suggest removing the Walker category completely, it's by far the quickest fix for making all walkers and monstrous creatures on an even footing.

Oh and roll back the psychic phase to an earlier, simpler system. Let powers be picked, but balance powers out so that's not a problem. Remove the psychic point system entirely so you actually proportionately have each psyker contributing according to their ability instead of being a dead weight battery for one broken super-psyker.

Hell, keep some 3rd, 4th and 5th books on hand to cross check for how they did things differently in general.

changemod wrote:
I'd honestly suggest removing the Walker category completely, it's by far the quickest fix for making all walkers and monstrous creatures on an even footing.

Oh and roll back the psychic phase to an earlier, simpler system. Let powers be picked, but balance powers out so that's not a problem. Remove the psychic point system entirely so you actually proportionately have each psyker contributing according to their ability instead of being a dead weight battery for one broken super-psyker.

Hell, keep some 3rd, 4th and 5th books on hand to cross check for how they did things differently in general.

The walkers' one is a great suggestion. We'll discuss it, but I find it right.

I hadn't thought about te psychic phase but yep, 4th ed system was cool.

I personally do like better old tyranid codices (4th being my favourite) so I've got some ideas from there, bit I do want to know what the rest of te community thinks in general.

Please allow HQs to travel with squads. And lower the freakin points on terminators. You should also combine 5th 7th and 8th. I know some hate it but formations inspired me to run a first company task force. My whole army laint scheme is around formations. Stern Hammer strike force. I really enjoyed it for the fists.

When I write 40k fixes I find it easiest to start with 4th edition and add in the few good concepts that came later.

 ForceChoke wrote:
Please allow HQs to travel with squads. And lower the freakin points on terminators. You should also combine 5th 7th and 8th. I know some hate it but formations inspired me to run a first company task force. My whole army laint scheme is around formations. Stern Hammer strike force. I really enjoyed it for the fists.

Formations was in my opinion one of the worst parts of 7th. Some armies could have formation based lists, some other not, and that made some of them really superior (just look at genestealer cult's subterranean uprising, that thing is just insane). But overall, we want to listen what the community thinks. If the majority of players want formations, then formations will be. Also, I see no problem with them as long as they are logic and balanced, and not just "you can reroll to hit and to wound failed rolls and your opponent has a minus 1 penalty to its reserves just because you play this formation that includes 1 HQ and 1 elite" (I'm exaggerating here, but some formations really screwed logic).

For the terminators... I do not find them to be that worth in 7th, so yep, I think they need a drop cost (though they are not that expensive when compared to other non-marine codices, I find IG Bullgryins way worse and they are more expensive).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
When I write 40k fixes I find it easiest to start with 4th edition and add in the few good concepts that came later.

Pretty much agree. I've played some 4th ed games and I enjoyed them more than any other, As I play tyranids mainly, I had some compliments about instinctive behavior (which I find really awful in 4th), and also the rule that you have to shoot to the nearest unit unless some rule allows you not to do it. Still, I do find 4th to be one of the best editions as armies were totally customized. I think the game is way funnier that way and that's what we are trying by doing this project.

Can we have save modifiers and damage? It's one of my favourite things about 8th edition.

Plus damage isn't terribly difficult to apply using the 8th edition "undamaged models are wounded first" mechanic.

But I agree about using 4th as a base. I still have fond memories of the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines codexes at the time.

The majority of the posts I've placed in Proposed Rules have focused on "general purpose" issues rather than on a codex-per-codex basis. I can drudge up several ideas, but notable ones included:
-"Big three": rules of 40k. ITC Invisibility (in my base rewrite i recommend making it work like Stealth in Warmachine), cannot "modify" an Invulnerable save to better than 3++ (stuff like Shadow Fields are fine, but Grimoire + Cursed Earth are not), and removing Deathblow from D in exchange for it being a -2 penalty to Invulnerable Saves.
-Reworking the 7e Psyker system: it's the same one lord_blackfang used for potica edition Basically: More Warp Charge but no more pooling, and rather than minimum casting values, powers have degrees of success. Deny the witch, rather than being all-or-nothing, can subtract successes from a power, so even if you're hit by a nasty Witchfire that's AP 3, getting only one denial could reduce it to AP 4, etc.
-Reworking Overwatch to be based on 2nd ed declaration (forfeit shooting and further movement), with 3rd-7th targeting restrictions. The key difference is rather than triggering on enemy movement, it would trigger on enemy declaration of attempt to attack a unit near the Overwatching unit. This would also replace Interceptor incidentally.
-Removal of instant death and vehicle destroyed - Explodes with massive damage (instant loss of D3 HP/wounds). Replacing strength double toughness with strength >= toughness + 3, making the vehicle damage mods start at AP 3, and adding extra wounds/HP to compensate.
-Removal of Salvo weapons.
-Removal of Sweeping Advance with "Free Strikes"
-Reworking Stomp. Rather than D3 blasts with a d6 chart, it's one blast at the user's strength and AP 2. You can do up to 2 extra blasts, but each extra blast means they all have -2 Strength and -1 AP. Stomps must be a minimum of S6, all Stomps must be within 2" of the stomper, and you cannot place multiple stomp blasts on top of each other.
-Summoning in 7e requires forfeiting all movement.
-Allowing Death or Glory vs Vector Strikes. Smack that Heldrake or Flyrant out of the sky if it dares to hit your Assault Terminators!
-Terrain is just "half movement unless MTC".
-Shooting is based on comparing BS vs target initiative. Cover increases initiative for defenders being charged.

One thing I'm currently brainstorming is how to rework Tank Shock. One thing that is irksome is that only Tanks can push models around and not all Monsters, and that a Land Raider can be stopped in its tracks by a flimsy Warbuggy but can shove a Trygon out of the way (or kill a Stormsurge). One thing I was thinking of doing was merging Tank Shock, Ram, and Hammer of Wrath into the same rule, and giving vehicles a strength value. Comparative strength determines whether you can displace models, or whether it's a simple collision: For example, a Rhino might be able to scatter Guardsmen around, but a wall of Bullgryns would be impassable. Inversely, said Bullgryns could push other infantry off objectives but would get shoved aside by a Carnifex.

Another thing I want to work on is "war rig" rules, making "Chariot" and open-topped mergable into each other.

As for army-building:
-I am torn on formations. On one hand you have the lazy spamming ones (Aspect Host, Riptide Wing, etc) and on the other hand you have the ones that are bland and useless (Khorne's Bloodstorm, etc) and the ones that are *fun* (Demolition Claw, Helforged Warpack, etc). If the *fun* bonuses could be extracted from those formations I would be cool with them going the way of the dodo, but I do like the idea of formations that give an appreciable bonus for an appreciable opportunity cost as while certain units may be usable in a vacuum, armies that are certain compositions may lag behind others. While Gladius may be the way to play Marines, let's not kid ourselves that stripping it wholesale would probably swing things back in favor of Gravbikes.
-The alternative idea was doing a "flexible FOC" similar to what 8th is doing. Take a CAD, scale by points, and decide what you want in your army. Rather than Lord of War, I'm OK with certain "power units" counting as "Relics of war", meaning they take up an extra slot (or several) within their respective category. I've gone back and forth on the idea of splitting HQs into Lords and Heroes ("the Marbo Slot".
-Characters are "built" similar to Forgeworld HQs, having a base profile and a series of sub-specializations (think like Corsair Princes, Legion Centurions, etc). As an example, Fireblade would be the catchall for non-suit Tau leaders, but said character could be a Firesight Marksman, a Tank Veteran, or a Survivor (Darkstrider, Kais in Fire Warrior, etc).
-"Engineer HQs" can commandeer a vehicle of choice as their ride, allowing for fully armored lists.
-One thing I experimented with was "Special Mission Loadouts". Sometimes, there are certain equipment upgrades that are so specific that you never spend points on them, but they can be nice for niche situations. Grapple guns for scouts, fire barrels on Guard tanks, etc. The idea I had (and as an alternative to sideboards) was each unit has three choices of "free upgrades" to choose from, after army creation but before the game starts. Doing it for the entire army may be OTT, but another alternative would be having a fixed number of units that can do it per point level (one per 500 pts) with certain HQs (techmarines, etc) allowing more.

Tau:
-Aun'shi replaces Stubborn with Zealot, and replaces his stances with War Hymns (renamed "Prophet of the Greater Good". He's unique enough to serve as a "Battle Preacher" for the Tau while paying a premium for the privilege (and in an army not kitted for melee).
-Make the Riptide cheaper or tougher but cut its damage factor. Make it tanky rather than tanky and killy. The Heavy Burst Cannon simply becomes Heavy 6 (or 9 with overcharge), and the Ion Accelerator is just a regular Ion Cannon now, with Nova Charge making it AP 2 (rather than it being AP 2 on standard overcharge).
-The Nova Reactor is no longer "buff or wound." It's "buff this turn, cooldown and penalty next turn." So boosting your Invulnerable to 3++ on turn 1 means no Invulnerable on turn 2, etc.
-Smart Missile Systems only fire 2 shots but have Precision Shots and Rending (combine with Advanced Targeting if you wish). Hi-Yield Missile Pods are either Heavy 2 Blast.
-Tau Vehicles get "Drone racks" which are customizable replacements for "pair of gun drones".
-Still working on drone interchangability.

Eldar:
-Dire Avengers are 3+ armor, Jetbikes are 4+ armor. Scatter Lasers on Eldar Jetbikes are 18" (This combined with the revised overwatch rules and D could make them far more bearable).
-Guardians and Storm Guardians get a 1 pt reduction.

Chaos Space Marines:
-Chaos Plasma weapons have "Gets Really Hot." They fire an extra shot, but each roll of 1 counts as two rolls of 1 (meaning 2 saves, potentially 2 HP lost, etc)
-20 pts reductions for Daemonforged models. Baleflamer costs extra though. Daemonforged Models gain Power of the Machine Spirit (so Defilers aren't hosed). Defiler Battlecannon gains Indirect Fire.
-Redid the Thousand Sons, period.

Tyranids:
-The Maleceptor can "recycle" Warp Charge used by other non-Maleceptor Tyranid Psykers within Synapse Range. For each WC roll a die, and on a 5+ it gains a token that it may use for that Psychic Phase alone. The Maleceptor knows every power in the Tyranid Discipline, and upon successfully manifesting a power may attempt to manifest it a second time; this does not count against the
-Venom Cannons are direct-fire again.
-Spore Mines have alternative payloads ala 4th. In addition to Biovores/Harpies/airdropping them, Lictors can also lay single Spore mines.
-I haven't thought as much about Nids tbh.

Sisters:
-Fundamentally reworked them. I can expand on this.

Orks:
-Still in draft mode.
-Clan rules. Each Clan gives a minor bonus, and has recommended "clan gear" for modelling.
-Warboss grants Clan bonus to unit he leads, either doubling it if it's the same clan, or replacing the other bonus ("I say youz Goffs now so shut it!". A Waaagh is treated like the Warboss is in every unit, and they're all his clan.
-Big Meks can take a Speedsta.
-Plans for a "medium tank" between the Trukk and Battlewagon.
-Removing "Looted Wagons" and just providing a general list of "Looted Bitz" that can be used to kustomize vehicles as a whole.
-Removing Flash Gitz as a unit. Rather, any Nob can be a Flash Nob, allowing access to Kustom Jobs on any weapon they own.

Necrons:
-Early draft.
-Monoliths have a Power Matrix, which can be calibrated for different tasks. A Monolith may do one of three things at the start of its turn: Teleport a Necron unit ala 3rd ed (including out of CC), fire the Particle Whip (now a primary weapon), or activate the Exile Gate (force an enemy unit to move 6" towards the gate, any model that makes it b2b takes a Destroyer Hit).
-Custom Cryptek Harbingers, and customizable C'tan.
-Necron ICs cannot join units that do not start off with Reanimation Protocols (nerfing Orikan-stars)

Plenty more, feel free to ask about specifics.

To the O.P.
As you want to fix 7th ed.Could you please define the scale and scope of the game play you want to end up with?
I agree with Lord Blackfang, that 4th ed 40k, seemed to be a workable scale for the game.(All the big toys forced into the game in 6th and 7th ed broke the game play for many people.)


Also could you list the areas for concern you want to look at?Not specific rules but the general concepts in the core rules you have issue with.

To the O.P.
I suggest you poll your friends for what they dislike the most, and then list those things here. We can probably point you at threads where fixes have already been suggested