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Ok guys, help me out here... rules quandary discussed over beers tonight that we couldn't grok:
"How do you speed roll weapons that do DX damage against units with more than one model?"

One at a time, it makes sense as outlined in the rulebook for resolving attacks:
-make hit roll
-make wound roll
-enemy allocates wound
-enemy makes saving throw
-inflict damage (in this case, a DX)

But because you have to allocate wounds to already wounded models and inflicting the randomized damage comes AFTER you allocate wounds, you're left with some kinda wacky Schrodinger situations when you try to speed roll this.
Lets say for this scenario I have 5 Primaris Intercessors with 2 wounds each, and they've just taken 4 wounds from a D3 damage weapon. What do I do?
A: I take those 4 wounds and allocate them to my models evenly. 4 marines each roll a save, and I fail two. My opponent rolls two D3 damages and rolls two 1s. I now have 2 marines that have taken 1 wound each. This would not have happened if I had rolled each dice individually because I would have to keep allocating wounds to the wounded model until it died.
B: I take those 4 wounds and don't allocate them (illegal, but bear with me) until we figure out what the damage is. I roll 4 armour saves and fail all four. Opponent rolls damage and rolls a 1, 1, 2, and a 3. I then allocate the 1 and 3 to a model (killing it), and a 1 and 2 to a model (killing it), leaving me with a marine with 1 wound. But this games the system by allocation, when those same wounds would have killed 3 marines potentially if they were rolled and allocated one at a time.
C: Is DX damage just one roll for all the shots? I roll D3 and get 3, so all shots from that weapon are 3 damage for that attack? That would fix all this. The rulebook says random rolls are on a "per model basis" when working out damage, but says nothing about per shot. And if I have like, a unit of powerfist terminators, I still have to figure out the damage for each one of them individually and then group them together by different damages.
D: Play it as written and roll one at a time. I've got 4 wounds. I pass one armour save. I pass another armour save. I fail an armour save. Opponent rolls damage and does 1 wound. I pass another armour save. etcetera etcetera. For 4 wounds its not a big deal, but what about those 10 powerfist terminators putting out 20 D3 damage attacks a turn?

Given the sheer number of multiple wound multiple model units, and the amount of DX weapons (which you will naturally want to use on multiwound units) how the hell are you supposed to do this without having to mind-numbingly roll one dice at a time???

A) is correct, as there were no damaged models available that could have taken the wound

D) would have been the better option for the opponent

And this can be done fast, we had the same procedure back in 5th with Boss Biker and Thunderwolves

I think A) is incorrect, because you end up with two wounded models, which is illegal if you allocate one at a time like in D).

But you can speed up D). You can roll all your saves at the same time, and end up with X unsaved wounds that do 1D3 damage each. Then you have to roll each D3 one at a time, always allocating to already-wounded models.

And obviously against single models, or units with models that each have enough wounds to survive everything (like a 10W model that got hit by 3 D3 damage), you can roll all the damages at the same time.

fresus wrote:
I think A) is incorrect, because you end up with two wounded models, which is illegal if you allocate one at a time like in D).

Why is it illegal?
it say wounds need to be allocated to wounded models first
not that wounded models need to be removed first

same example, you have 1 wounded model and one with full health, 2 successful wounds that to 1 damage each, each model get 1 wound, the wounded one saves it, the other one not, you end with 2 wounded models

fresus wrote:

But you can speed up D). You can roll all your saves at the same time, and end up with X unsaved wounds that do 1D3 damage each. Then you have to roll each D3 one at a time, always allocating to already-wounded models.

but this is illegal, as you decide what models are removed

 kodos wrote:

fresus wrote:

But you can speed up D). You can roll all your saves at the same time, and end up with X unsaved wounds that do 1D3 damage each. Then you have to roll each D3 one at a time, always allocating to already-wounded models.

but this is illegal, as you decide what models are removed take saves.

You would still be able to pick which models are taking the saves (except when you have to allocate to a wounded model) even if you roll all saves at the same time. As far as I am aware there are no squads which have multiple different armour saves so it doesn't matter which model you pick to take the d3 damage after the saves are rolled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

fresus wrote:
I think A) is incorrect, because you end up with two wounded models, which is illegal if you allocate one at a time like in D).

Why is it illegal?
it say wounds need to be allocated to wounded models first
not that wounded models need to be removed first

same example, you have 1 wounded model and one with full health, 2 successful wounds that to 1 damage each, each model get 1 wound, the wounded one saves it, the other one not, you end with 2 wounded models.

You are allocating the saves wrong in your example. The saves are allocated one at a time not all at once. The wounded model would keep having saves allocated to him until he died before the healthy model could ever have a save allocated to him.

 roflmajog wrote:

 kodos wrote:

fresus wrote:

But you can speed up D). You can roll all your saves at the same time, and end up with X unsaved wounds that do 1D3 damage each. Then you have to roll each D3 one at a time, always allocating to already-wounded models.

but this is illegal, as you decide what models are removed take saves.

You would still be able to pick which models are taking the saves (except when you have to allocate to a wounded model) even if you roll all saves at the same time.
.

maybe I get you wrong but, if you roll saves first, and than allocate failed saves which is against the rules (you decide which model dies),
you can roll all the saves at the same time but you need different coloured dice and allocate them to the models before you roll them


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 roflmajog wrote:

You are allocating the saves wrong in your example. The saves are allocated one at a time not all at once. The wounded model would keep having saves allocated to him until he died before the healthy model could ever have a save allocated to him.

right, if you are doing the slow version with 1 dice at a time
speed rolling you would throw all your dice, ending with X wounds to allocate, and each model would take one wound before they do saves


BUT, in fact there is no possibility for rolling more dice at the same time without having a disadvantage for the attacking player

The rules seem pretty clear on this point. "Fast Dice Rolling" can be used to take all of your hit and wound rolls together, but then your opponent can allocate wounds and take saves and suffer damage one at a time. Now, in many cases it's clearly not a problem to roll saves/damage all at once too, but the rules don't actually allow for this and so it seems kosher for either player to insist on one-at-a-time rolling if it's advantageous for them. Variable damage against multiple multi-wound models will need to resolve save-by-save, yes.

The fast dice rolling rules actually cover this. You cannot allocate wounds to unwounded models if there are wounded models in the unit. So in this case you'd roll to hit and to wound (using fast dice rolling in most cases) and at that point the defending player would have to allocate any wounds, one at a time, to a wounded model until they fail their save. It's in the sidebar on the Shooting page of the rules.

I think GW need to add a bit more detail on how multiple wounding hits from multi-wound weapons interact with mutli-wound units though. The system as it exists now is a bit clunky.

A tricky part of this is when you get weapons that do different amounts of damage based on the wound roll.

Rad Carbines do 1 damage except on a to-wound roll of 6 where they do 2 damage.

So if they are shooting a unit of multi-wound models the order of allocation matters a lot as one player wants "overkill" while the other doesn't.

I've been working it out as "activating dice" based on their position on the table, from the shooter's side of the table out. Which mostly solves the problem.

From what I can tell, the only way to get the proper results is to allocate > roll saves > damage one at a time. Luckily the numbers are usually small, but it's still rather clunky.