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Ok, so I have been reading through a good portion of the HH novels (many more to go!) and as a side read/view I bought the HH 'Visions of Heresy' book which was quite interesting. Now getting to the point the Warmaster's forces have every reason to win the battle, yet after Horus's death they disintegrate into a rout. Why is this?

Lets first look at the order of battle. Terra is besieged and its orbital forces that survive the initial attack serve as a minor distraction as the traitors make planet fall so I won't count them. The traitors have at their disposal more men and material in every category and rather than list all of that I will list what the Loyalists have:

Solar:
Committed:
Negligible Solar fleet
Reserve:
Space Wolf, Dark Angels, and Ultramarine fleets heading back to Terra.

Ground:
Committed:
Under strength Imperial Fist Legion containing mostly veteran units as Dorn lost the majority of his fresh marines to the Istvaan massacre. (Dug in)
Blood Angels Legion (Dug in)
White Scars Legion (Digging in at time of attack)
Solar Auxiliaries/militia. True figure unknown but likely in millions. (Dug in)
Mechanicus Titans, aircraft and tanks.

The battle:
Horus's forces make progress with each passing day despite the efforts of the loyalists, being a siege against such heavy defences this takes days to do but Horus's forces get an unshakeable grip on Terra, and even with losing one space port to a desperate counter attack they still hold another equally important one to drop further reinforcements and supplies. Without strategy or leadership they should have won through attrition alone. Directed by arguably the greatest siege breaking mind Perturabo they had just as much edge over the loyalists as Dorn's clever defences were against in return. Horus was concerned about not having enough time, even with the aid of the warp he knew three fleets were on the way to try and relieve Terra and that was his vital mistake. By letting the Emperor board his ship and in a moment of hesitation be defeated by him all is suddenly lost for the traitors! I do not understand this. I get that Horus's soul shattering dematerialised the vast reserves of Daemons in the battle, but that wouldn't have evened the odds enough for the defenders. I get that it was a great moral destroyer for the Warmasters forces but you wouldn't just give up over that. I also get that the attackers were pushed back in the area held by the Blood Angels who went berserk after feeling their Primarch's death but even so that could not win the battle. I know that the Daemon in Fulgrim got bored and sent his legion on a rampage rather than to the assault but that didn't even the odds in favour of the defenders. Why when the outer walls of the Palace were breached, the loyalists pushed back to the great door itself after a futile custodian assault lost the Emperors park ground did Horus's forces give up?

My thoughts:
The battle was clearly won by the Warmaster's forces. Even with Horus dead Perturabo could still direct the siege to a conclusion. Failing the continued plan why did the other Daemon Primarchs give up? They each had their own goals and universally wanted to get in to the Palace so why did they each stop? Angron himself raised his fists in anger at not getting inside as he departed. This begs the question why didn't he carry ion in his usual blood rage? It doesn't make sense. Even if you argue without Horus they fell into total chaos, then how could they organise a withdrawal so well? Perhaps their fighting spirit was literally extinguished with the raw power of chaos no longer fuelling them? As I see it winning was still on the cards before loyalist fleets arrived back. The berserk Blood Angels should have been allowed to bottleneck themselves by over advancing and then get encircled and destroyed piecemeal by the Warmaster's forces. This would have opened a big hole in the line for the traitors to break through. With the custodians either annihilated or transiting back with Dorn, the Imperial fists and White Scars wouldn't hold. Could they not see this? If they broke in or managed to disrupt Dorn's return, the loyalists might not have been able to get the Emperor hooked up to the Throne in time. Malcador could only hold on for so long, and if that happened all those dematerialised Daemons would be back on Terra moments later. In that scenario the traitors would have won in a matter of time before the loyalists could have even arrived.

So am I missing the point or indeed a vital bit of fluffy information? Have I got wrong something in the lore? What do you all think?

The Imperial Fists weren't at Isstvan, you must be thinking about the battle of Phall ? The thing is, the Imperial Fists were stationed on Terra for a few years when the Heresy began, and continued to be during the whole conflict. Even though they engaged in several conflicts during the Heresy (Phall, Mars, Pluto, etc), their bulk was operating directly on one of their recruiting worlds, and therefore could train new warriors directly under the supervision of their Primarch and the full logistics and material the Solar System could provide (even though Mars was engulfed in their own civil war). So I wouldn't say they were that underforced.

we dunno the full story yet and it's suggested it may actually be slightly differant from what we've heard (from a breif line in the Carrion Throne, I find myself suspecting that they're doing away witht he whole beaming to Horus' ship)

that said what we do know is when Horus died it broke the Sons of Horus, they turned and fled, none of the other Primarchs where partiuclarly united, Horus was the glue that held them together, when he died and his sons fled I suspect other legion started fleeing as well. the remaining legions could have pressed on but Gulliman was en route. had they stayed longer they would have gotten crushed between the gate defences and the full strength of a very pissed off Ultramarines Legion.

remember not all Legions where equal. and the Ultramarines where the biggest. due to casualties, by that time it's possiable the Ultramarines alone where capable of taking on most of the chaos forces that may have been inclined to stay.

Because Angels held the gates.

BrianDavion wrote:
we dunno the full story yet and it's suggested it may actually be slightly differant from what we've heard (from a breif line in the Carrion Throne, I find myself suspecting that they're doing away witht he whole beaming to Horus' ship)

that said what we do know is when Horus died it broke the Sons of Horus, they turned and fled, none of the other Primarchs where partiuclarly united, Horus was the glue that held them together, when he died and his sons fled I suspect other legion started fleeing as well. the remaining legions could have pressed on but Gulliman was en route. had they stayed longer they would have gotten crushed between the gate defences and the full strength of a very pissed off Ultramarines Legion.

remember not all Legions where equal. and the Ultramarines where the biggest. due to casualties, by that time it's possiable the Ultramarines alone where capable of taking on most of the chaos forces that may have been inclined to stay.

Yeah. The Chaos legions had lost the central commander who was one who brought some of the most dysfunctional primarchs together. Minus the one primarch that seemed not to be utterly flawed, Petarbo was doing a good job, few others then you had like of angron, and Kurze on your side...

Lastly yeah, they would driven between thr heavily dug in even if depeleted defenders of the palace, backed into there redoubts and fortifications, thr heavily strenghed ultra marines, and two others, one known for heavy shock warfare and another beside.

It would not have gone so well if your trying to lay siege and also defend against a heavy backline assult maybe even larger than the defenders force.

There's a number of reasons. Firstly, they were on a clock. The incoming loyalists would have routed them, and with Horus dead and his legion's morale broken, what slender advantage they had was lost. The other traitor Primarchs had no love lost between them, and without Horus to lead them, could not cooperate effectively against what was literally the hardest target in the entire galaxy.

Secondly, and I don't know if this is still canon, but the Chaos powers did withdraw their support upon the death of Horus. I'm sure I recal references to them howling in defeat and evacuating his body as the Emperor destroyed his soul, which must have had a considerable impact.

You might be working with a re-worked edition but from an old white dwarf (I can post the number in a few days time, currently on holiday away from my books) I can tell you that the story plays out very diffrently. Horus straight up loses the battle for Terra and lowers the shields in a last gamble to bait the Emperor and strike him down. Horus forces where already breaking and when his gamble fails nothing is holding them togheter anymore so they route and flee. As I recall the most important events for this is:

1.The landing site. Horus missjudges the regular militias capabilities to stand against astartes where the AA guns are located. The AA guns give immense losses to Horus forces but are eventually wiped to a man. They do not however rout.
2. The counter attack of the white scars slow down the advancing forces, forcing them into guirilla hit and runs in the ruined city, which is the white scars speciality and a bane to the Iron warriors.
3. The titans and Siege eqquipment pound the Imperial palace utterly destroying its outer defenses. They are largely usless in the fight inside however. For some reason Horus and Pertubraro doesn't just flatten the palace, either by being unable to or for some wish to take it intact. While this is going on they are harrased by the white scars.
4. The fight inside the palace (world eaters vs blood angels) favour the world eaters and they are largely winning. Eternity gate is held however as Sanguinius holds it personally. After besting a greater Deamon of Khorne (I think it's Skaarabrand but I'm not sure) in hand to hand combat the world eaters let up on assulting the gate for a while. Wrecking the palace but the gate is what's truly important.
5. The Emperors children with Fulgrim do nothing to contribute. They go ahead and massacre what's left of the local population.
6. The other primarchs are turning out difficult to control for Horus. Their demonic nature making them lose sight of the big picture and so many objectives are not met due to lacking command chain.
7. The Sons of Horus do not participate at all. Horus holds them in reserves to be comitted either to counter enemy reserves or to be deployed at the finale. Once the warmaster dies they leave instantly and so the rest are one legion short. A legion that did not participate in the first place.

So (appart from the Imperiums reinforcments) there's the overall answers. As I said this could all be retconned. It comes from the first cityfight supplements white dwarf. I can give you the WD number in a few days.

Edit: Also some of the imperiums ground forces you might want to consider that, whilst not really mentioned, probably played important parts:
-The officio assasinorum (all temples remained loyal)
-The Custodes
-The Sisters of Silence

The Traitor Legions were never centralised to begin with, Horus was the only thing that kept them all in line. Lets break down all the Legions by discipline, and explain why Horus' death would completely fracture the unit of the Heresy relating to them:

1. Sons of Horus. Pretty self explanatory. A mixture of psycho-conditioning, hero complex, respect, warp trickery, and him being in the name meant that his death completely broke their spirit. That's why you don't centralise all power around one person folks.

2. Iron Warriors. Literally all Perty wanted to do in his life was to give it to the Imperial Fist. He had no charisma, no skills to keep together all the other forces present there. Currently in conflicts that involve coalition forces (e.g. Normandy, Iraq, Afghanistan) one of the most key skills is interpersonal communication. And Perty knew this.
Once the Sons of Horus broke, he would be smart enough to know that this meant a domino effect. So naturally he did the smart thing and legged it.

3. Word Bearers. Yeah, all Lorgar wanted to do in his life was worship something, and stick to Guilliman. WB were 100% Lorgar's Legion, and they did what Lorgar wanted. Treat the WB as basically an independent legion at this point, they had little desire to depose the Emperor. It was only really Horus had made them kinda align themselves to any other legion.

4. Alpha Legion. Yeah, again, treat them as a completely independent legion at this point. Alpharius and Omegon basically ditched the Imperium even prior to the HH even being considered.
AL were in it for themselves, mean crap, they weren't even on Terra when all of this was going down.

5. Death Guard. Nurgle trickery broke the DG back, and Morty pissed off the Plague Planet.
Again, another independent legion doing their own thing.

6. World Eaters. Oddly enough, these guys were probably Horus' most reliable allies. They always fought with him, always took orders (sometimes even making their own orders), and would always get stuff done. Too bad they were also crazed maniacs.
When Horus died, their sense of direction went with them. Every man for himself.

7. Emperor's Children. Enough said really. All they wanted to do was get pleasure, with Horus gone, why should they even HH?

8. Night Lords. Again, enough said. All they wanted to do was indulge to cruelty. Cruze wanted more, but he was too broken do do anything.

9. Thousand Sons. Like the Death Guard, broken by Tzeetch. Pissed off to the warp.

So conclusions. Out of 9 legions, only: 1 was 100% solid, the Luna Wolves; 1 was pretty solid as an ally, Iron Warriors;1 was an unreliable ally, Word Eaters; 3 were basically independent forces. AL, WE, NL; 2 were broken by the warp, DG and TS; and 1 was completely unreliable, EC.

So yeah. It was a massive feat, that only Horus could do, to even have most of them stand side by side to attack Terra. Warlordism, personal vendettas, etc were rife in the Traitor Legions.
His death only allowed the natural order to be realised - that is warlordism within the traitor legions.

I''d more or less agree except on point 4. Lorgar, the Heresy was essentially his master plan anyway.

problem is that it's not super relevant. as few of the traitor Primarchs RESPECTED Lorgar. he'd be unable to keep them together,

but yeah ultimately once Horus died the glue broke. you had maybe 2 legions who could be trusted to keep it together,

They lacked the strength to wait out the siege and hold off Loyalist forces that were en route. Horus had to goad the Emperor into engaging him in single combat, knowing that the only way to break the loyalist morale and resistance was to defeat the big E.

Its a miracle even Horus could get those to agree and work even remotely to the end goal.

Seige wise. It was iron warriors, titan legions and there regiments of auxiallry + one or two doing most of the sieges heavy lifting and strategic operations.

They rest where baggage at best, did own thing.
Had he had 9 disciplined and effective legions at his command who did stick to the plan and work as allies. No doubt.

But this was the traitor legions.

The Fists, Scars, Angels + custodians where yes proud but also knew that one alone was doomed and all 4 would have to fight as brothers.

The wolves, Ultra, and Dark Angels forces where again also got a solid purpose, bar the internal issues they all knew that the mission to relive Terra and break the siege would be too important and even rivals where going to have to work together.

One side had advantage of winning..
They where on top, and such. Had numbers.

The others where backed to wall or looking at failing to break it if they split too much they failed.

Its someone with somthibf lose, with someone vs nothing to lose.

With Horus dead, the Sons of Horus started routing (as we know, the death of a Primarch has a huge impact on his legion).
And when a part of the force starts routing, the battle is lost. It is a well known principle in warfare that even just single formation losing heart and making a run for it can quickly turn into a mass rout of the entire army. It is just how crowd psychology works.

With the Sons of Horus no longer willing to fight, the other Legions also were no longer willing and instead pursued their own objectives.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
With Horus dead, the Sons of Horus started routing (as we know, the death of a Primarch has a huge impact on his legion).
And when a part of the force starts routing, the battle is lost. It is a well known principle in warfare that even just single formation losing heart and making a run for it can quickly turn into a mass rout of the entire army. It is just how crowd psychology works.

With the Sons of Horus no longer willing to fight, the other Legions also were no longer willing and instead pursued their own objectives.

Kinda like that old WH rule where your other Units within range need to pass a Leadership test if they see another Unit fleeing, or they start to flee themselves. It's like dominos; once one falls, the rest will follow, barring interference.

While I think the Traitors may have been able to storm and take the Imperial Palace before the Ultramarines arrived, it would have been a pyrrhic victory at best, and so they saw no reason to remain on Terra.

 Nerak wrote:

5. The Emperors children with Fulgrim do nothing to contribute. They go ahead and massacre what's left of the local population.

"We only get into this job to pump ourselves full of drugs you people have never even heard of!"

Maybe traitors simply decided leave before ultramarines and wolves arrive. Even if they had continued winning would have takan too long and they would have been caught between two forces.

According to what I read, the loyalists were winning the siege. The Iron Warriors had broken into the inner ring of defenses but the central keep was still firmly under the control of the Blood Angels and Imperial Fists. The White Scars were raising holy hell outside of the defenses and had drawn off the entirety of the Death Guard, who were probably Horus' 2nd or 3rd best legion. Meanwhile the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were making their way towards the Solar system so Horus' time was running short, as once they arrived the numbers would have swung in the favor of the Loyalists. That's why Horus dropped the shields on his battle barge - to draw the Emperor in and try to kill him before the other Loyalist legions arrived on the field.

This suggests that Horus did not think that he had the ability to break into the central keeps in a timely fashion. Even after the disaster of the duel between Horus and the Emperor it is unlikely that Perturabo would have been able to smash down the defenses and kill Dorn (or whatever) before the Space Wolves and Dark Angels arrived, as the Imperial Fists were still conducting a very stout defense. Maybe Horus' calculation was wrong and he did have enough time to break down the final ring of defenses, but that's unknowable consider the nature of the game lore available to us.

1. Where is the Emperor? The traitors are dying by the thousand to break into the inner palace and kill the Emperor, but he's just killed the Warmaster so he's not in the inner palace.. so why carry on throwing away vital resources to take an empty building?

2. The traitors had just leveled almost every defensive installation on the planet. The impending loyalist arrival would be less of a 'reinforcement' and more of a counter-invasion against exhausted traitor forces cowering in the rubble. Better to fall back to a planet with its own intact fortifications (back in 1st edition you had references to the traitors defense of the 'Ring of Iron' on Mars).

 Gashrog wrote:
1. Where is the Emperor? The traitors are dying by the thousand to break into the inner palace and kill the Emperor, but he's just killed the Warmaster so he's not in the inner palace.. so why carry on throwing away vital resources to take an empty building?

2. The traitors had just leveled almost every defensive installation on the planet. The impending loyalist arrival would be less of a 'reinforcement' and more of a counter-invasion against exhausted traitor forces cowering in the rubble. Better to fall back to a planet with its own intact fortifications (back in 1st edition you had references to the traitors defense of the 'Ring of Iron' on Mars).

1) Taking the capitol of an enemy country still has value even if the leadership has fled for several reasons. You've put the enemy on the backfoot and got them on the run. It's difficult to command a resistance if you are also preoccupied with an immediate threat to your safety, plus the loss of any command infrastructure. It's also got symbolic value. "We just took the Imperial Palace on Terra! The capital of the largest empire in the history of the universe!" That's some serious PR points.

Were any of the traitor legions not present during the siege of terra?

The Alphs legion wasn't. The Sons of Horus (black legion/luna wolfs) didn't deploy. The Emperors children might as well not have been.

 Sentinel1 wrote:
Ok, so I have been reading through a good portion of the HH novels (many more to go!) and as a side read/view I bought the HH 'Visions of Heresy' book which was quite interesting. Now getting to the point the Warmaster's forces have every reason to win the battle, yet after Horus's death they disintegrate into a rout. Why is this?

Lets first look at the order of battle. Terra is besieged and its orbital forces that survive the initial attack serve as a minor distraction as the traitors make planet fall so I won't count them. The traitors have at their disposal more men and material in every category and rather than list all of that I will list what the Loyalists have:

Solar:
Committed:
Negligible Solar fleet
Reserve:
Space Wolf, Dark Angels, and Ultramarine fleets heading back to Terra.

Ground:
Committed:
Under strength Imperial Fist Legion containing mostly veteran units as Dorn lost the majority of his fresh marines to the Istvaan massacre. (Dug in)
Blood Angels Legion (Dug in)
White Scars Legion (Digging in at time of attack)
Solar Auxiliaries/militia. True figure unknown but likely in millions. (Dug in)
Mechanicus Titans, aircraft and tanks.

The battle:
Horus's forces make progress with each passing day despite the efforts of the loyalists, being a siege against such heavy defences this takes days to do but Horus's forces get an unshakeable grip on Terra, and even with losing one space port to a desperate counter attack they still hold another equally important one to drop further reinforcements and supplies. Without strategy or leadership they should have won through attrition alone. Directed by arguably the greatest siege breaking mind Perturabo they had just as much edge over the loyalists as Dorn's clever defences were against in return. Horus was concerned about not having enough time, even with the aid of the warp he knew three fleets were on the way to try and relieve Terra and that was his vital mistake. By letting the Emperor board his ship and in a moment of hesitation be defeated by him all is suddenly lost for the traitors! I do not understand this. I get that Horus's soul shattering dematerialised the vast reserves of Daemons in the battle, but that wouldn't have evened the odds enough for the defenders. I get that it was a great moral destroyer for the Warmasters forces but you wouldn't just give up over that. I also get that the attackers were pushed back in the area held by the Blood Angels who went berserk after feeling their Primarch's death but even so that could not win the battle. I know that the Daemon in Fulgrim got bored and sent his legion on a rampage rather than to the assault but that didn't even the odds in favour of the defenders. Why when the outer walls of the Palace were breached, the loyalists pushed back to the great door itself after a futile custodian assault lost the Emperors park ground did Horus's forces give up?

My thoughts:
The battle was clearly won by the Warmaster's forces. Even with Horus dead Perturabo could still direct the siege to a conclusion. Failing the continued plan why did the other Daemon Primarchs give up? They each had their own goals and universally wanted to get in to the Palace so why did they each stop? Angron himself raised his fists in anger at not getting inside as he departed. This begs the question why didn't he carry ion in his usual blood rage? It doesn't make sense. Even if you argue without Horus they fell into total chaos, then how could they organise a withdrawal so well? Perhaps their fighting spirit was literally extinguished with the raw power of chaos no longer fuelling them? As I see it winning was still on the cards before loyalist fleets arrived back. The berserk Blood Angels should have been allowed to bottleneck themselves by over advancing and then get encircled and destroyed piecemeal by the Warmaster's forces. This would have opened a big hole in the line for the traitors to break through. With the custodians either annihilated or transiting back with Dorn, the Imperial fists and White Scars wouldn't hold. Could they not see this? If they broke in or managed to disrupt Dorn's return, the loyalists might not have been able to get the Emperor hooked up to the Throne in time. Malcador could only hold on for so long, and if that happened all those dematerialised Daemons would be back on Terra moments later. In that scenario the traitors would have won in a matter of time before the loyalists could have even arrived.

So am I missing the point or indeed a vital bit of fluffy information? Have I got wrong something in the lore? What do you all think?

Your impression is very different from mine, and the forces are definitely wrong.

Solar:
Committed:
The Imperial Fists' fleet, including the Phalanx (the mightiest ship in the Galaxy), minus what was lost whooping Petulanto's ass at Phall. They had just whooped the Alpha Legion fleet and sent them running too.
The Solar Fleet, which is presumably the biggest, toughest, single fleet in the Galaxy.
All the defensive positions scattered throughout the Sol System (a lot).
Reserve:
Space Wolf, Dark Angels, and Ultramarine fleets heading back to Terra. The Angels Tenebrae and the Ultramarines were among the most numerous Legions, and hadn't taken anywhere near the losses the other Legions had. There's a reason most Chapters are Ultramarine-descendants.


Ground:
Committed:
The Imperial Fists, among the most numerous Legions and the best defensive Legion, fortifying the most fortified system in the Galaxy. Yes, they had taken losses, but so had the now-purged Traitor Legions.
Blood Angels Legion - Doing what they do best: Heroics.
White Scars Legion - Doing hit and run attacks on the enemy.
Solar Auxiliaries/militia/Terra's population. True figure unknown but likely in millions billions (Dug in)
Mechanicus Titans, aircraft and tanks.

The battle:

If Horus had more time, he could have just had Petulanto lob stuff at the walls and win. However, he also had three Legions, two of which were mostly intact, coming down on his battered forces. Exactly what happened on the Vengeful Spirit, and why, is an unknown I seriously hope they don't unveil. It's way more fun wondering if Horus suddenly had a bad conscience, if he wanted to gamble, if the Chaos gods did abandon him, if Ollanius Pius actually was there and made the Emperor finally stop holding back etc.

My thoughts:
The other Traitor Legions aren't the Alpha Legion. They are very reliant on their leaders, and Perturabo would have needed to keep the rest in line. Remember that Fulgrim tried killing him?

The Blood Angels weren't that berserk either.

Essentially, the Traitors now lacked the incentive and organisation to take Terra. So what if they took it? They would almost guaranteed lose it to infighting if they weren't wiped out by the Lion, Guilliman, and Russ' forces. Without Horus to keep them together, they no longer had a reason to believe their erstwhile allies' forces would be just that - allies. Imagine being an Iron Warrior with the Emperor's Children on your left and World Eaters on your right. You'd be quite right to be looking left and right.

 Gashrog wrote:
1. Where is the Emperor? The traitors are dying by the thousand to break into the inner palace and kill the Emperor, but he's just killed the Warmaster so he's not in the inner palace.. so why carry on throwing away vital resources to take an empty building?

2. The traitors had just leveled almost every defensive installation on the planet. The impending loyalist arrival would be less of a 'reinforcement' and more of a counter-invasion against exhausted traitor forces cowering in the rubble. Better to fall back to a planet with its own intact fortifications (back in 1st edition you had references to the traitors defense of the 'Ring of Iron' on Mars).

Emperor was on the throne so that daemons didnt break into the palace

 Saber wrote:
According to what I read, the loyalists were winning the siege. The Iron Warriors had broken into the inner ring of defenses but the central keep was still firmly under the control of the Blood Angels and Imperial Fists. The White Scars were raising holy hell outside of the defenses and had drawn off the entirety of the Death Guard, who were probably Horus' 2nd or 3rd best legion. Meanwhile the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were making their way towards the Solar system so Horus' time was running short, as once they arrived the numbers would have swung in the favor of the Loyalists. That's why Horus dropped the shields on his battle barge - to draw the Emperor in and try to kill him before the other Loyalist legions arrived on the field.

This suggests that Horus did not think that he had the ability to break into the central keeps in a timely fashion. Even after the disaster of the duel between Horus and the Emperor it is unlikely that Perturabo would have been able to smash down the defenses and kill Dorn (or whatever) before the Space Wolves and Dark Angels arrived, as the Imperial Fists were still conducting a very stout defense. Maybe Horus' calculation was wrong and he did have enough time to break down the final ring of defenses, but that's unknowable consider the nature of the game lore available to us.

Well obviously Emperor thought they were losing it because otherwise he wouldn't have done the desperate invasion of the barge. And with Horus forces outnumbering Emperor's not that surprising.

That's without reinforcements. If Emperor had known two more legions were coming he would have just sat in the palace as Horus would not have been able to break through in time.

tneva82 wrote:


Well obviously Emperor thought they were losing it because otherwise he wouldn't have done the desperate invasion of the barge. And with Horus forces outnumbering Emperor's not that surprising.

That's without reinforcements. If Emperor had known two more legions were coming he would have just sat in the palace as Horus would not have been able to break through in time.

That's the point - Horus had access to information that the Emperor did not. Because the Traitors had cut off Terra entirely from communication with the outside the defenders had no updates as to the progress of the Dark Angels and Space Wolves, while Horus had a much better idea of their approach. Horus made a gamble and the Emperor made a mistake on the Vengeful Spirit.

Also of note, when the Emperor consulted Dorn and Sanguinius about teleporting up to the Vengeful Spirit, Dorn was vehemently against it. Not only did he think it was a trap, he also thought that his forces were winning the siege (Dorn was the commanding general, as the Emperor was busy with the Golden Throne). Sanguinius, however, was in favor of attacking Horus because he was overcome by visions of his fated death. The Emperor overruled Dorn and went anyways; that's why Dorn was so distraught after the battle, because he had failed to get his master to heed reason and then he had failed again to protect the Emperor in battle. That strongly implies that Dorn, at least, was convinced that the battle was winnable while the Emperor decided otherwise.

If so then why didn't the Emperor just rip appart Horus the instant he got into the room?

It's easy to think that, and you may be right, but there's more to it. The Emperor wanted to see and speak to Horus. He does not instantly murder Horus but allow him to cripple him. He doesn't, in fact, kill Horus untill Ollanius steps up between the Emperor and Horus. And when he does he doesn't just kill him. He obliderates Horus body and soul to the point where nothing remains.

Unless of course you where being ironic, in which case I think you're right. I honestly think the Emperor just wished to communicate and see his favourite son one more time, to confirm everything with his own two eyes.

Based on what we know about the Emperor, he probably teleported aboard the Vengeful Spirit with every intention to kill Horus and save Terra. He also really, really didn't want to kill Horus, who was his favorite son. Those two impulses clashed when the Emperor confronted Horus and the Emperor was uncertain of what to do.

The scale of Horus' power at that moment probably meant that it was impossible for the Emperor to just outright kill him, even if he had wanted to, which probably contributed to the protracted nature of their duel. We know that the Chaos gods were setting Horus up to fail, to a degree, but there's no reason to believe that their favors hadn't made Horus really, really powerful at that moment.

Sorry for asking silly questions, but I didn't know anything had been written about the siege of terra. Did The Khan have any special objectives?

Dorn was the commander of the Loyalist forces, and he gave Khan the mission of roaming about outside the Palace's walls while the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels defended it. This played to the White Scars strengths, obviously, as they weren't tied down and could zip around all of Central Asia to harass the Traitors.

The big success of the White Scars was that they attacked the space ports that were essential for the Traitors to land reinforcements, especially Titans and other heavy stuff. Horus' initial objective was to seize the space ports (I think there were about 5 of them) and the World Eaters did that in short order. However, when the Traitors turned their attention to attacking the Imperial Palace, the White Scars attacked them in the rear and retook at least one of the ports and eventually forced Horus to devote the entirety of the Death Guard to defending his lines of communication against the White Scars.

This was a big blow to the Traitors as the Death Guard were one of the most effective Traitor legions, along with the Iron Warriors and the Sons of Horus, so Khan's actions greatly impeded the ability of the Traitors to take the Palace.

 Saber wrote:
Based on what we know about the Emperor, he probably teleported aboard the Vengeful Spirit with every intention to kill Horus and save Terra. He also really, really didn't want to kill Horus, who was his favorite son. Those two impulses clashed when the Emperor confronted Horus and the Emperor was uncertain of what to do.

The scale of Horus' power at that moment probably meant that it was impossible for the Emperor to just outright kill him, even if he had wanted to, which probably contributed to the protracted nature of their duel. We know that the Chaos gods were setting Horus up to fail, to a degree, but there's no reason to believe that their favors hadn't made Horus really, really powerful at that moment.

He was very very powerful, but not as powerful as the emperor. In a near death state the emperor destroyed horus entirely. The Big E is very powerful, and probably could have yanked the vengeful spirit out of the sky if he wanted to

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Saber wrote:
Based on what we know about the Emperor, he probably teleported aboard the Vengeful Spirit with every intention to kill Horus and save Terra. He also really, really didn't want to kill Horus, who was his favorite son. Those two impulses clashed when the Emperor confronted Horus and the Emperor was uncertain of what to do.

The scale of Horus' power at that moment probably meant that it was impossible for the Emperor to just outright kill him, even if he had wanted to, which probably contributed to the protracted nature of their duel. We know that the Chaos gods were setting Horus up to fail, to a degree, but there's no reason to believe that their favors hadn't made Horus really, really powerful at that moment.

He was very very powerful, but not as powerful as the emperor. In a near death state the emperor destroyed horus entirely. The Big E is very powerful, and probably could have yanked the vengeful spirit out of the sky if he wanted to

Yeah his feelings for his former favourite son meant he was not out to kill at first.
The moment he saw his son dead, olinus pius.
He went to destroy his soul to the utter point of eternal death.

He never wanted him to be reborn by chaos.

Easy: The sight of the Khan Land Raider surfing was just too awesome. The cowardly traitors couldn't handle it.


They were destined to lose. The traitors fell to chaos becuase they all had glaring flaws (or at least their Primarchs did). It was Miracle that Horus even made it to Terra. And like others have said, he was the only reason that group stayed together. Once dead, every man for themselves.