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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






Ok since its all one big 'chaos' faction party was thinking of a thread to discuss chaos now the the nurglings are out of the bag re rules. (not sure there is another thread like this right?)

First thing to kick it off what do we think is a good way to run Chaos space marines daemon princes?

I'v been pondering and, the sword and the axe are a fortune, you might as well scrap em pay the 10pts for maleific talons... boom 7 attacks s7 -2 dm2.
Hear me out, not even bother with wings and make it a 'choose a god except khorne' for psychics
Still has a 8" move, unlike the daemons daemon prince is wounds 8 so can be hidden... keep him near your guys to re-roll 1's and buff units with prescience, also acts as a solid deny the witch on your lines and act as a counter assault unit if anything gets close.

all for 156pts

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/03 19:27:10


 
   
Made in gb
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine



UK

Wings, Khorne, Malefic Talons and run it behind a bunch of Rhino's full of Berzerkers.

With Wings it can keep up with the Rhinos and still avoid being shot due to having <10 wounds.

When eveything piles out of the Rhinos he's there to provide tasty re-rolls and smash face.

 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Spawn and raptors seem to both provide LD and morale debuffs.

And I can't wait to try out the Heldrake slingshot.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Heldrake sling shot?
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Well, it moves 30 inches and can charge, so I'd say it can get close to 1st turn charges most of the time.
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




 Latro_ wrote:

First thing to kick it off what do we think is a good way to run Chaos space marines daemon princes?


Good find regarding the wounds, i was trying to figure out why anyone would take a CSM prince.

The big question for me is:
What do we use to shoot at the enemy?

I did some mathhammering with Havocs(HB/AC), Forgefriends(HAC/Plasma) and Preds.
HB Havocs are overall the winners, they might be not as tough but point for point they beat the other contenders in nearly every category(Marine, Primaris, Terminator, Russ, Landraider, Guardsmen, Knight, Dreadnought).

Concerning close combat (Herald) Exalted Seeker Chariots are looking very good. Cheap, fast and tons of attacks.
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






A Protoss colony world

So, are Princes without wings actually viable now? If so, I'll go ahead and finish the metal one I'm putting together without any wings. If not, I need to go ahead and find a way to attach some wings. Shame the weapons cost so much, because both of mine are modelled with weapons rather than just claws (didn't matter before, I just thought it looked cooler!).

Also, can someone explain to me about the Soul Grinder's Warpclaw vs. Warp Sword? The claw says it makes 2 attack rolls for each attack on its profile. Does this mean double the number of attacks or roll twice and pick the best? The sword says it rerolls failed hit rolls, which is obvious what that means. Sorry if this is a silly question. Soul Grinders seem pretty good in 8th, but since I don't know what's good for the points I really don't know if they are worth taking.

Just a couple of sorta random things I noticed in the leaks:
Possessed are looking better, although the random number of attacks for them seems like it can bite you on the ass at precisely the wrong moment sometimes. At least they are cheaper now.

Be'lakor seems good, as he is cheaper than he was. With Invis gone, the main purpose of taking him has disappeared, but perhaps with his new special rules he could be good for buffing friendly Daemons and debuffing enemy leadership.

Overall it looks like Chaos is pretty solid. Since we can take Daemons and mortals in the same detachments (as long as they are devoted to the same god), there should be all kinds of list possibilities.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 1/27/18, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~10400 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~1100 | Space Wolves: ~1400
Inquisition: ~200 | Officio Assassinorum: ~500 | Talons of the Emperor: ~500
Tau Empire: ~5700 | Chaos Space Marines (various legions): ~8400 | Death Guard: ~2500 | Chaos Daemons (all types): ~2300
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Stormsurge blog | Imperial Knights: Renegade blog | Total models painted in 2017: 65 | Total models painted in 2018: 40 | Current main painting project: Assassins
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman






mahddoc wrote:


The big question for me is:
What do we use to shoot at the enemy?

I did some mathhammering with Havocs(HB/AC), Forgefriends(HAC/Plasma) and Preds.
HB Havocs are overall the winners, they might be not as tough but point for point they beat the other contenders in nearly every category(Marine, Primaris, Terminator, Russ, Landraider, Guardsmen, Knight, Dreadnought).



I'd be curious to see your math that led you to conclude Havocs out-shoot guard point for point? Were you looking at infantry squads only or did you consider heavy weapons teams?
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
mahddoc wrote:


The big question for me is:
What do we use to shoot at the enemy?

I did some mathhammering with Havocs(HB/AC), Forgefriends(HAC/Plasma) and Preds.
HB Havocs are overall the winners, they might be not as tough but point for point they beat the other contenders in nearly every category(Marine, Primaris, Terminator, Russ, Landraider, Guardsmen, Knight, Dreadnought).



I'd be curious to see your math that led you to conclude Havocs out-shoot guard point for point? Were you looking at infantry squads only or did you consider heavy weapons teams?


Guardsmen are one of the targets he considered when considering available Chaos shooting units. He's saying that HB Havocs are best for shooting AT all of the things he listed.
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman






Sincollector wrote:
 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
mahddoc wrote:


The big question for me is:
What do we use to shoot at the enemy?

I did some mathhammering with Havocs(HB/AC), Forgefriends(HAC/Plasma) and Preds.
HB Havocs are overall the winners, they might be not as tough but point for point they beat the other contenders in nearly every category(Marine, Primaris, Terminator, Russ, Landraider, Guardsmen, Knight, Dreadnought).



I'd be curious to see your math that led you to conclude Havocs out-shoot guard point for point? Were you looking at infantry squads only or did you consider heavy weapons teams?


Guardsmen are one of the targets he considered when considering available Chaos shooting units. He's saying that HB Havocs are best for shooting AT all of the things he listed.


Ah! Misread that entirely Carry on, then
   
Made in se
Chaos Space Marine dedicated to Slaanesh





mahddoc wrote:


The big question for me is:
What do we use to shoot at the enemy?

I did some mathhammering with Havocs(HB/AC), Forgefriends(HAC/Plasma) and Preds.
HB Havocs are overall the winners, they might be not as tough but point for point they beat the other contenders in nearly every category(Marine, Primaris, Terminator, Russ, Landraider, Guardsmen, Knight, Dreadnought).



I did some mathhammer too, although just against MEQ, I got this:
HvB Havocs: 0.0253 Damage per point with 4 HvB shooting
Plasma Chosen: 0.0255 Damage per point with 5 Plasmaguns shooting at 1/2 range.
Cultists: 0.0222 Damage per point with 35 Autoguns shooting at 1/2 range
CSM /w Bolter: 0.0170 Damage per point with 10 Bolters shooting at 1/2 range
Scarab Occult Termies: 0.0215 Damage Per point with 8 Combi Infernos, 2 Soulreapers and 2 Hellfyre racks shooting at half combi inferno range. Assuming Hellfyre Racks does 1 dmg.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 07:30:49


This silence offends Slaanesh! Things will get loud now!

 
   
Made in it
Been Around the Block





What about ''Killing big guys''? We Csm always struggled against big vehicles, what about now? I've been looking for the best unit to take down an Imperial Knight (if we can kill it, we can kill everything) and the only decent option I found was the laser predator (prescience and rerolling ones...), considering that every assault HQ could be oneshot if the IK survives the charge.
   
Made in au
Despised Traitorous Cultist




Played a couple of 8th games today. Mostly just muck around with units to try out.

A few key things i found
Nurglings: these disgusting pus balls are great at tying up shooting units. Had a squad tie up a predator tank for a few turns and 9 grey hunters for 6 fight phases, 3 model units. They suck pretty bad against dedicated units. I view them as 7th ed spawn, annoying and a good distraction unit.

Obliterators: they were solid as deepstrikers and put out acceptable damage on multiple wound vehicle units. They dont have enough shots to take out mass trash units.

Princes: tough enough but gotta steer away from multiple damage dealing hits. They still go down faster than a $2 hooker when facing dedicated cc units.

Bikes: being able to shoot the combi bolters and any special weapons is great, they but out alot of firepower and have great mobility and durability.

Terminators: nice and tough, though the game i used them in i was against 20 man blobs of necron warriors (they are very nasty). Still their durability has increased and the ability to fire the special weapon part of the combi bolter is fantastic.

Termie Lord: he was good, pretty tank if you take the "6+ ignore a wound warlord trait". The claw/chainfist is still a good multi threat combo. His reroll 1s to hit is a great buff both for himself and the other units near him.

Things i need to remember:
Alot of stuff does more than one wound in damage. I forgot that my chainfists and power fists do multiple wounds per hit, would have trashed the monolith alot faster.
Heavy weapons get a -1 to hit if you move, even on vehicles. So my vindi sat in the one spot to keep up the bs, mind you i tried charging with it, would have been funny if it managed to get into melee.

Awesome tip: when deploying, each player takes turns at placing units. Units that can deepstrike are "deployed" into deepstrike. This means that you can assign the units that you are deepstriking in first which allows you to see your opponents units on the table before you have to start placing your units on the table. hopefully that makes sense just allows you to react to their unit deploys before having to commit yours to the table top, pretty nice way to do things.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






I wasnt sure on the fact reserves are counted as actually deploying? that takes the edge off alpha strike lists going first i guess.

One thing i'v been mulling over are sorcerers, the powers are actually pretty nasty if you link them with a lord in a rhino.

Rhino jumps forward guys get out
sorcerer fires off warp speed they move 6"
sorcer fires off prescience so hitting on 2's
your meltas are now real close hit on 2's and get a re-roll from the lord!
then you are obviously close so get a charge in!

thats 12" + 3" out + 6" move + 2d6 assault for a possible 23"-33"

problem is with the warpspeed the sor, lord and unit are separate units so its tricky

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 11:54:19


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Personaly loving the idea of 2 or 3 forgefiends/ helbrutes sat in backfield shooting with a warpsmith fixing them. With the regaining 1 wound a turn on the fiends each turn and a smith fixing them i can see them being very hard to shift
   
Made in au
Despised Traitorous Cultist




Unfortunately Latro, disembarking occurs before the transport can move, however the unit disembarking can move normally, so for marines you gotta cut 6" off that range

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 12:23:16


 
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

 Latro_ wrote:
First thing to kick it off what do we think is a good way to run Chaos space marines daemon princes?

I'v been pondering and, the sword and the axe are a fortune, you might as well scrap em pay the 10pts for maleific talons... boom 7 attacks s7 -2 dm2.
Hear me out, not even bother with wings and make it a 'choose a god except khorne' for psychics
Still has a 8" move, unlike the daemons daemon prince is wounds 8 so can be hidden... keep him near your guys to re-roll 1's and buff units with prescience, also acts as a solid deny the witch on your lines and act as a counter assault unit if anything gets close.

all for 156pts
The wings let you move over enemy models and through your own. It's a pretty solid upgrade. I've been running with mine that way. There is a big difference between a very reliable 14" charge and 18" charge. It also lets them assault flyers. Who does not love your DP flying up and ripping a storm talon from the air?
IMHO the Chaos Daemon princes from the back of the book are much better beatsticks than the CSM ones. They can be targeted, but the Tzeentch one gets a 4++ and the Nurgle one gets disgusting resilience.
I played 4 games with my chaos daemons this weekend and the princes have been the all-stars of my army.

mahddoc wrote:
Good find regarding the wounds, i was trying to figure out why anyone would take a CSM prince.

Concerning close combat (Herald) Exalted Seeker Chariots are looking very good. Cheap, fast and tons of attacks.
Princes have 7 STR 7 attacks with -2 rend that do 2 damage each, rerolling 1's to hit. Daemon princes do not degrade as they take damage.
If you don't care about being targeted, you can grab a CD prince to get more wounds and unlock the daemon buffs -- but you do lose the ability to buff CSM, so that depends on your army.
That said, exalted seeker chariots are nasty. They are fast, can also smite, and buff themselves to STR 5 claws.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/06/04 12:59:06


 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc






Battle Barge Impossible Fortress

I have about 10+ games of 8th with various Thousand Sons-themed lists since Wednesday against a variety of opponents.

I don't use Obliterators, but other guys do. They are more effective as a shield for a buffing character in your deployment zone. With a 24" weapon and no bonus to being closer to the enemy, there is no reason to teleport in. With their small footprint, you can easily fit them in cover (and should). 9 wounds at 1+ isn't going anywhere unless you suck at rolling saves. Teleporting them closer is just giving them to your enemy.

Forgefiend is serious business. Put Prescience on it. Use a Command Re-roll to get the power off- it's worth it.

Terminators or Scarab Occult Terminators for a turn 1 charge is important. Don't forget to use your Command Re-roll.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 13:13:38


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Video batrep with my Thousand Sons!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhdiGN5_MoM

Semper Fi! 2nd Bn 8th Marines Weapons Co (2003-2008)
 
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





The Eternity Gate

Chaos terminators choice problem. Do I take combi melta or plasma? Hard choice because they want to be close so melts is quite deadly but plasma in general is awesome this edition. Thoughts?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 14:11:35


01001000 01100001 01101001 01101100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01001110 01100101 01100011 01110010 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 01101100 01101111 01110010 01100100 01110011 00100001  
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






Casti wrote:
Unfortunately Latro, disembarking occurs before the transport can move, however the unit disembarking can move normally, so for marines you gotta cut 6" off that range


ah yea, still viable-ish
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




 buddha wrote:
Chaos terminators choice problem. Do I take combi melta or plasma? Hard choice because they want to be close so melts is quite deadly but plasma in general is awesome this edition. Thoughts?


I think plasma is the way to go, you can always overcharge if need/want. The biggest benefit i guess is being able to deepstrike in 9-12 to rapidfire both bolter and plasma. Plasma is also useful against most targets, a melta is often overkill.
If my math doesn't fail me they look really promising. Of course point for point they lose to chosen in offense but they should be able to handle return fire quite well and can deep strike.

One big thing to consider, we haven't seen the rules from the Forgeworld books. There might be some fun toys in the first chaos book but even more so the Astra Militarum(includes renegades) book which should be out by the end of the month.
AM looks very strong right now and i guess/hope renegades might give us some of their nice stuff. The AM tactic thread is on fire right now with people finding new and exciting ways to blast enemies of the board.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 14:32:22


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I'm trying to work out if taking daemonettes in squads of 30 is worth that +1 attack.

The masque also seems ridiculously good, -1 hit is very powerful
   
Made in ch
Implacable Skitarii






 Rydria wrote:
I'm trying to work out if taking daemonettes in squads of 30 is worth that +1 attack.


They lose the bonus attack once they fall below 30 models, right? In that case I dont think it is worth it.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't suppose anyone's done a spreadsheet of chaos points costs yet?
   
Made in us
Bounding Assault Marine




The issue I found with a blob of 30 is once they get into the charge, it is kind of hard to get all of em to attack at once because of needing to be within 1"
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I just wanted to get a conversation started on non-god Elites

Chosen.

They're looking pretty good in this addition, and I imagine that the standard builds from 7th will be great, with more options opening up. The following set ups look good to me, but I'd love to hear what you guys think:

Min Dakka Chosen
6x Chosen: 5x Plasma Guns, 1x Plasma Pistol - 161pts (maybe + Rhino)

Max Dakka Chosen
10x Chosen: 1x Power Sword, 5x Plasma Guns, 1x Plasma Pistol - 236pts + Rhino
(the power sword is cheap, and makes charging them more of a price)

Assault Chosen
10x Chosen: 1x Icon of Wrath, 1x Powerfist, 4x Powerswords, 1x Plasma Pistol - 203pts + Rhino


But do you think these are good set ups? I'm particularly excited about the Assault Chosen, which look like tremendous fun. But do you think this set up competes with Possessed, Multilators, and Khorne Berzerkers?


Terminators

Terminators are in an interesting situation, as with the 5 min squad suicide is basically out. I think 10x squads are just too big, and 5x is the best size. I think that the basic set up is:

Standard Terminators
5x Terminators: 3x Axe + Comi-X, 2x Chainfist + Combi-X - c. 300pts (X = Mela for tanks, Plasma for MEQs, and Flamer for Horde, although you might only want 2x or 3x Flamer for the last set up, and the rest plasma, or else it's overkill)

The question here is whether Melta or Plasma is best against MEQs. What do we think?


Helbrutes

The Helbrute seems to have much more flexibility, but I was thinking the follow would be the basic set ups:

Tank Buster Helbrute
1x Helbrute: 1x Helbrute Fist, 1x Multi-Melta (139)

Dakka Helbrute
1x Helbrute: 1x Lascannon, 1x Missile Launcher (147)

Flexible Helbrute
1x Helbrute: 1x Helbrute Plasma Cannon, 1x Power Scourge (145)

Of these, I quite like the third. But what are your thoughts?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 16:29:13


Chaos Space Marines: 7000pts
Death Guard: 1500pts
Tyranids: 4000pts 
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




TonyH122 wrote:
I just wanted to get a conversation started on non-god Elites
Chosen.

Don't forget combi weapons are not "one use" anymore and you can shoot both at the same time.
TonyH122 wrote:
Terminators
The question here is whether Melta or Plasma is best against MEQs. What do we think?

Plasma all the way against MEQ. Overchage if you have rerolls with you to kill bigger stuff.
TonyH122 wrote:
Helbrutes

They get expensive quite fast, Twin HB + Scourge looks also quite appealing to me.
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine





Can a helbrutes take two power scourges?

Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
Made in gb
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine



UK

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Can a helbrutes take two power scourges?


Edit: Thought no but on a re-read yes you can.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 17:35:08


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Can a helbrutes take two power scourges?


That's a fascinating case. It says that you can replace the starting Fist with a Scourge. So that's fine. But you can replace the Multi-Melta with a Fist, and it says "This model may replace its Helbrute fist with a Helbrute Hammer or Power Scourge". Contrast this where it says just above "This model may replace one Helbrute fist with a missile Launcher."

But then the issue is whether, without any specification for having two (like Lightning Claws and Malefic Claws), you get the benefit twice.

Chaos Space Marines: 7000pts
Death Guard: 1500pts
Tyranids: 4000pts 
   
 
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