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I play Imperium, but when I purchased GS3 I also got the "chaotic neutral" Cypher character and built him two 5 man squads of Fallen since they could be allied with any Imperial army and I liked modeling all of the Fallen to look unique.

Haven't painted or played with them yet. Does anyone know if they are listed in the Astartes index or are they in Chaos only?

I don't want to buy the whole traitor index for 11 guys, I may just have to wait for individual datasheets.

They're, currently, only in Index Chaos.

I'd hold off. Since it sounds like there's a very good chance the indexes get outdated quickly, that seems like a lot of cash for a few models.

I'd recommend waiting until we see the first round of expansion rules before deciding what to buy or not, to see if the indexes have any lasting worth.

They're in the Chaos Index, but Cypher can ally to Chaos or Imperium just like before.

I guess they just set it up this way to keep Dark Angels players from raging.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They're in the Chaos Index, but Cypher can ally to Chaos or Imperium just like before.

I guess they just set it up this way to keep Dark Angels players from raging.

Why aren't dark angels the one in the chaos book?

 Kanluwen wrote:
They're, currently, only in Index Chaos.

They do have the Imperium Keyword though in addition to the Chaos Keyword

 Jaxler wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They're in the Chaos Index, but Cypher can ally to Chaos or Imperium just like before.

I guess they just set it up this way to keep Dark Angels players from raging.

Why aren't dark angels the one in the chaos book?

Because Secret Traitors are Secret?

But the last campaign involving Fenris being attacked shows the Inquisition has rumbled them.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They're in the Chaos Index, but Cypher can ally to Chaos or Imperium just like before.

I guess they just set it up this way to keep Dark Angels players from raging.

Why aren't dark angels the one in the chaos book?

Because Secret Traitors are Secret?

Shhhhh you'll wake Lion'El

 Aetare wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They're in the Chaos Index, but Cypher can ally to Chaos or Imperium just like before.

I guess they just set it up this way to keep Dark Angels players from raging.

Why aren't dark angels the one in the chaos book?

Because Secret Traitors are Secret?

Shhhhh you'll wake Lion'El

Nah, his little Jawas will keep him doped up on sleeping pills.

 Aetare wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They're in the Chaos Index, but Cypher can ally to Chaos or Imperium just like before.

I guess they just set it up this way to keep Dark Angels players from raging.

Why aren't dark angels the one in the chaos book?

Because Secret Traitors are Secret?

Shhhhh you'll wake Lion'El

He's already up and running around under a hood.

hobojebus wrote:

 Aetare wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They're in the Chaos Index, but Cypher can ally to Chaos or Imperium just like before.

I guess they just set it up this way to keep Dark Angels players from raging.

Why aren't dark angels the one in the chaos book?

Because Secret Traitors are Secret?

Shhhhh you'll wake Lion'El

He's already up and running around under a hood.

Cypher isn't big enough to be a Primarch. Unless he's Alpharius (he totally is of course).

That aside, the Dark Angels codex put the Lion sleeping under the Rock. I guess "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" is a song for every night there...

 ClockworkZion wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 Aetare wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They're in the Chaos Index, but Cypher can ally to Chaos or Imperium just like before.

I guess they just set it up this way to keep Dark Angels players from raging.

Why aren't dark angels the one in the chaos book?

Because Secret Traitors are Secret?

Shhhhh you'll wake Lion'El

He's already up and running around under a hood.

Cypher isn't big enough to be a Primarch. Unless he's Alpharius (he totally is of course).

That aside, the Dark Angels codex put the Lion sleeping under the Rock. I guess "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" is a song for every night there...

I am Alpharius!

Should have just commissioned an army of the DA Jawas instead of those Primaris...

 Aetare wrote:
Should have just commissioned an army of the DA Jawas instead of those Primaris...

DA Jawa technology is as secret as their full hangar of Jetbikes that they won't share.

Getting back to, you know, Cypher and the Fallen's usability....

Cypher is now pretty much worthless in close combat as his pistols are not melee weapons anymore. His pistols are still pretty gross and if you get him within 12 inches of a unit he is going to dent it with plasma and bolt rounds. He buffs the Fallen with rerolls and they have a nifty rule that prevents them from losing more than one model to moral which, combined with some plasma or melta, makes them a pretty good ranged unit. Unlike Chaos Marines, they can take a melee weapon without replacing their bolter plus they get more melee attacks, making them a better jack of all trades unit. They're also only 1 point more expensive than Marines and are far more flexible in their loadouts as mentioned, in addition they have leadership 9 which is amazingly high. All in all, with Cypher, they can fit any niche you need in your army from ranged support to a close combat unit.

**A better comparison would have been chosen, who they beat in points (Fallen 14 per model, Chosen 16 per model) while having more flexible wargear options.

The only thing they are missing is infiltrate, so they need to be in a transport to get anywhere.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Getting back to, you know, Cypher and the Fallen's usability....

Cypher is now pretty much worthless in close combat as his pistols are not melee weapons anymore. His pistols are still pretty gross and if you get him within 12 inches of a unit he is going to dent it with plasma and bolt rounds. He buffs the Fallen with rerolls and they have a nifty rule that prevents them from losing more than one model to moral which, combined with some plasma or melta, makes them a pretty good ranged unit. Unlike Chaos Marines, they can take a melee weapon without replacing their bolter plus they get more melee attacks, making them a better jack of all trades unit. They're also only 1 point more expensive than Marines and are far more flexible in their loadouts as mentioned, in addition they have leadership 9 which is amazingly high. All in all, with Cypher, they can fit any niche you need in your army from ranged support to a close combat unit.

**A better comparison would have been chosen, who they beat in points (Fallen 14 per model, Chosen 16 per model) while having more flexible wargear options.

The only thing they are missing is infiltrate, so they need to be in a transport to get anywhere.

I would argue that the pistols are melee weapons...they just pistol whip people in melee and shoot them normally in the shooting phase...

^This is a very accurate description. They'll need to get close, but can act as a Swiss Army Knife of Sorts if your more role-dedicated units are tied up elsewhere.

Side note: Starting new thread and Army right now to represent DA Jawa Legion.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Getting back to, you know, Cypher and the Fallen's usability....

Cypher is now pretty much worthless in close combat as his pistols are not melee weapons anymore. His pistols are still pretty gross and if you get him within 12 inches of a unit he is going to dent it with plasma and bolt rounds. He buffs the Fallen with rerolls and they have a nifty rule that prevents them from losing more than one model to moral which, combined with some plasma or melta, makes them a pretty good ranged unit. Unlike Chaos Marines, they can take a melee weapon without replacing their bolter plus they get more melee attacks, making them a better jack of all trades unit. They're also only 1 point more expensive than Marines and are far more flexible in their loadouts as mentioned, in addition they have leadership 9 which is amazingly high. All in all, with Cypher, they can fit any niche you need in your army from ranged support to a close combat unit.

**A better comparison would have been chosen, who they beat in points (Fallen 14 per model, Chosen 16 per model) while having more flexible wargear options.

The only thing they are missing is infiltrate, so they need to be in a transport to get anywhere.

Remember pistols can still be fired at a unit if the model with the Pistols is within 1" of them. So essentially his Close Combat phase is just the shooting phase.

 andysonic1 wrote:
The only thing they are missing is infiltrate, so they need to be in a transport to get anywhere.

You can stick combi-bolters on 4 per squad, and give the 5th guy a PG. That's pretty sick damage output. 16 points for 4 bolter shots within 12" is good.

As of the index's, however, the Fallen cannot ride in any transports. Fallen lack the <Chapter> or <Legion> keywords. Every Chaos or Imperial transport requires one of those keywords to ride in.
Even the stuff from Imperial Codex 2 are unavailable as they did not want Cult Mechaninus riding in Chimeras.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
The only thing they are missing is infiltrate, so they need to be in a transport to get anywhere.

You can stick combi-bolters on 4 per squad, and give the 5th guy a PG. That's pretty sick damage output. 16 points for 4 bolter shots within 12" is good.

As of the index's, however, the Fallen cannot ride in any transports. Fallen lack the <Chapter> or <Legion> keywords. Every Chaos or Imperial transport requires one of those keywords to ride in.
Even the stuff from Imperial Codex 2 are unavailable as they did not want Cult Mechaninus riding in Chimeras.

Well shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiield guess you're walkin' then. Which is even odder when you factor in their Fallen rule which lets them reroll 1s when shooting if they don't move. You could argue that this makes Cypher worth it since with him nearby they get the rolls wherever they go.

At this point I'm just trying to convince myself to get Cypher because he's so cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool