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Hi guys,

It's been a long time since I played 40k.

Decided to get back into it for 8th edition and I have always wanted to collect C/Daemons. (Who doesn't)

My goal - Build a competitive/strong army list that I can work towards. At present, I have two in mind. 1 Chaos Daemons list, 1 Nurgle list.
I'm looking for opinions and/or pointers from more experienced players. Be critical if you have to.

I will apologise in advance, I onlly currently have access to Power Points. No action Points. However, it should work out close with some minor alterations. (I assume)


Anyway, onto the lists!




Thoughts -
Lots of fast moving heralds spamming smite @ 24" (outside charge)
Burning Chariots get decent overwatch, are fast moving, quite tough and can deal some damage with heavy D3 attack.
The furies are only included as a nuisance and a screen, to make the heralds untargetable. MoN just makes them a little more survivable.
Alternatively, I could just as easily include Screamers.

Pinks would fit a certain theme and provide yet more smite. However, Plague bearers would be harder to move from objectives?

My second List is nurgle. Any thoughts on which one would be more playable/stronger etc.





Thoughts -
Due to the Helldrake having both the Nurgle and Daemon keywords to benefit from Epi's tally.
I figured the drakes could be used really early, with the bale flamer and 1st turn charge on infantry for easy kills.
This should get the tally going.

The opponent is then faced with dealing with the two drakes in his face or prioritising the 3 flying Daemons Prices who can heal.
Plus, the Heralds buff the PB's to S6...

Just my thoughts.

Maybe I'm wrong and thinking isn't my strong point


Any feedback is appreciated.

Chris

Can't really comment on the first list, as i don't play the Tzeentch Stuff, besides Magnus with Exalted Socerers and Daemonprinces.

Second list seems okay, but why the other battalion detachment, only for the 3 command points?

Would kick it for more punch, as 60 Plaguebearers are not that punchy even with epidemius.

Play more Daemonprinces, Heldrakes or other Nurglestuff that can punch hard. Also i think 7 command points are more than enough.

Hey Dark.

Thanks for the reply.

The Plague Bearers will be S6 and T5. They are going to be wounding MOST heavier beasties on 5's. Even if you consider S8 on a Daemon Price, its only 1 better on 1/4 of the attacks.

Example :

Toughness 8 Target - 4+ Save (assumed) - No further modifiers

14 PB's and Herald (same price as DP, rounded down)
PB's - S6, 2A, 3A (Champ)
Herald - S7, 4A

Hits -
Herald Hits on 2+
3.33 Hits.

Plague Bearers Hit on 4+
14.5 Hits

S7/S6 v T8
Rerolling failed wounds
Herald -
1.45 Wounds

Plague bearers -
7.99 Wounds caused

Total caused 9.44 Wounds

Saves : 4+
4.72 Total Damage


Daemon Price (Daemon) same variables, twin Talon setup.
8 attacks, S8, hits on 2+, re-rolling misses.

Hits -
6.88 Hits

Wounds -
3.44 Wounds

Saves - Rend -2AP (6+)
2.87 Wounds

5.74 Total Damage

So the Daemon Price does ultimately outweigh the Plaguebearers.

However, with 10CP I can auto pass 5 Ld tests.
Without this setup I could only do that for 3. (as an example)



Ideally, I'd love to take lots of big stuff.

But my meta is going to see lots of D3/D6/2D6 damage weapons as its mech heavy.
Those weapons are wasted on my Plaguebearers due to wounds not carrying over.

So I dunno.

Chris

Okay maybe i underastimated the plaguebearers, but you need to kill 4-5 units if i am not wrong to get all the buffs rolling and until then they hit considerably weaker than most other units.

I don't say they are bad, but i think that 60 maybe is a bit too much . 40 Will also do okay in my opinion.

didn't see how helldrakes can get MoN.

Am I going crazy? I only count 7CP in both lists.

As for actual advice: from what I've heard/seen so far Heldrakes are a strong option because of the first turn charge and a lot of positive things have come back from flaming chariots and Tzeentch magic is looking good. Personally I don't like epidemius: he's not really changed that much from last edition and in 7th he was rubbish, the problem is buffs won't kick in fast enough to mean anything and justify his points.

However, I haven't played too many games of 8th yet so the jury's still out on which combinations work, if you want to try something go ahead but make sure to come back and tell us how you army did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blackmage wrote:
didn't see how helldrakes can get MoN.

It has <Mark of Chaos> in it's profile.

@ Darksider.

Thank you...

I had been informed that Epis tally was on "Models" not "Units".

Helldrakes are required to take a mark of Chaos, by making them Nurgle you fulfill both keyword requirements for Epidemus' tally. Nurgle, Daemon.

@ Mrhappyface -
Each Warforged army starts with a base 3 Command Points.
Taking a patrol detachment, rewards you with 0 Extra. Pretty much any other detachment rewards additional CP's.

So to get a fast tally you either hope and pray your opponent takes lots of small units the Helldrakes can shoot and assault Turn 1 for easy kills. Or... you dont bring epidemius.

Guess back to the Drawing board!
Knew it was too good to be true.

mcsheehy wrote:

I had been informed that Epis tally was on "Models" not "Units".

That's the AoS version who looks far better than the 40k version, don't know why they decided he should be units rather than models in 40k.

but he gets no bonus just the mark for the tally....am i right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mcsheehy wrote:
Hi guys,

It's been a long time since I played 40k.

Decided to get back into it for 8th edition and I have always wanted to collect C/Daemons. (Who doesn't)

My goal - Build a competitive/strong army list that I can work towards. At present, I have two in mind. 1 Chaos Daemons list, 1 Nurgle list.
I'm looking for opinions and/or pointers from more experienced players. Be critical if you have to.

I will apologise in advance, I onlly currently have access to Power Points. No action Points. However, it should work out close with some minor alterations. (I assume)


Anyway, onto the lists!

Spoiler:

Chaos - 98/100 PP
the main problem i saw with demons lists without greater demons is...morale, they have no way to improve and they risk a lot how the morale works now.
10 Command Points
3 Detachments

Battalion Detachment - +3CP
HQ -
2x Tz Herald, Chariot,Staff - 14PP

Troops -
3x Pinks/Plagues/Pox Walkers - 15PP (assumed Daemons)

Fast Attack -
3x Furies, MoN - 9PP

Spearhead Detachment - +1CP
HQ -
Tz Herald, Chariot, Staff - 7PP

Heavy Support -
3x Burning Chariot - 15PP

Battalion Detachment - +3PP
HQ -
2x Tz Herald, Chariot, Staff - 14 PP

Troops -
3x Pinks/Plagues/Pox - 15PP

Fast Attack -
3x Furies, MoN - 9PP

Thoughts -
Lots of fast moving heralds spamming smite @ 24" (outside charge)
Burning Chariots get decent overwatch, are fast moving, quite tough and can deal some damage with heavy D3 attack.
The furies are only included as a nuisance and a screen, to make the heralds untargetable. MoN just makes them a little more survivable.
Alternatively, I could just as easily include Screamers.

Pinks would fit a certain theme and provide yet more smite. However, Plague bearers would be harder to move from objectives?

My second List is nurgle. Any thoughts on which one would be more playable/stronger etc.

Spoiler:

Nurgle list - 100/100 PP
10 Command Points
3 Detatchments

Battalion Detachment - +3 CP
HQ -
Epidemius (ofc) - 5PP
Herald (Nurgle) - 4PP

Troops -
3x Plaguebearers - 15PP

Flying -
2x Helldrake, Bale Flamer, MoN

Supreme Command - +1 CP
HQ -
3x Daemon Price, MoN, Wings, 2x Talons

Battalion Detachment - +3CP
HQ -
2x Herald (Nurgle) - 8PP

Troops -
3x Plaguebearers - 15PP

Thoughts -
Due to the Helldrake having both the Nurgle and Daemon keywords to benefit from Epi's tally.
I figured the drakes could be used really early, with the bale flamer and 1st turn charge on infantry for easy kills.
This should get the tally going.

The opponent is then faced with dealing with the two drakes in his face or prioritising the 3 flying Daemons Prices who can heal.
Plus, the Heralds buff the PB's to S6...

Just my thoughts.

Maybe I'm wrong and thinking isn't my strong point


Any feedback is appreciated.

Chris

the main problem i saw with demons without greater demons is morale....

@ Blackmage,

There is no reason the helldrake would not benefit from the tally. Epidemius' tally requires two key words. Nurgle + Daemon. Both of which the Helldrake has.

I've switched my approach a little and swung a little towards Deathguard. (I have the box anyway)
Going to try and build something around them.

Greater Daemons would be nice...

mcsheehy wrote:
@ Blackmage,

There is no reason the helldrake would not benefit from the tally. Epidemius' tally requires two key words. Nurgle + Daemon. Both of which the Helldrake has.

I've switched my approach a little and swung a little towards Deathguard. (I have the box anyway)
Going to try and build something around them.

Greater Daemons would be nice...

i meant the bonus of mark itself.

 blackmage wrote:

mcsheehy wrote:
@ Blackmage,

There is no reason the helldrake would not benefit from the tally. Epidemius' tally requires two key words. Nurgle + Daemon. Both of which the Helldrake has.

I've switched my approach a little and swung a little towards Deathguard. (I have the box anyway)
Going to try and build something around them.

Greater Daemons would be nice...

i meant the bonus of mark itself.

Marks don't give anyone bonuses

 CrownAxe wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

mcsheehy wrote:
@ Blackmage,

There is no reason the helldrake would not benefit from the tally. Epidemius' tally requires two key words. Nurgle + Daemon. Both of which the Helldrake has.

I've switched my approach a little and swung a little towards Deathguard. (I have the box anyway)
Going to try and build something around them.

Greater Daemons would be nice...

i meant the bonus of mark itself.

Marks don't give anyone bonuses

yes that's what i meant ty, unless demons index marks, they give bonus.
Btw what's better in a mon Tz list, Loc, or Magnus, Loc gives D bonus but can fall down more easy, only STR 6 means he cant hit hard like Magnus, one less psi power each turn.
i m planning to play this list
Magnus low

brigade detachment
DP Tz due claws and wings (the one with 8 wounds)
3x20 tzangor
5x10 brimstone
3 burning chariots
3 exalted flamers
3+3+3 screamers
2 Tz heralds on disk
Now im thinking if play Magnus or something else, for his price i could take 2 DP's like the one i already have for example.

 blackmage wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

mcsheehy wrote:
@ Blackmage,

There is no reason the helldrake would not benefit from the tally. Epidemius' tally requires two key words. Nurgle + Daemon. Both of which the Helldrake has.

I've switched my approach a little and swung a little towards Deathguard. (I have the box anyway)
Going to try and build something around them.

Greater Daemons would be nice...

i meant the bonus of mark itself.

Marks don't give anyone bonuses

yes that's what i meant ty, unless demons index marks, they give bonus.

They don't even give bonuses either, the bonus MUST be on the dataslate to be given.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

mcsheehy wrote:
@ Blackmage,

There is no reason the helldrake would not benefit from the tally. Epidemius' tally requires two key words. Nurgle + Daemon. Both of which the Helldrake has.

I've switched my approach a little and swung a little towards Deathguard. (I have the box anyway)
Going to try and build something around them.

Greater Daemons would be nice...

i meant the bonus of mark itself.

Marks don't give anyone bonuses

yes that's what i meant ty, unless demons index marks, they give bonus.

They don't even give bonuses either, the bonus MUST be on the dataslate to be given.

if you read dataslate about those DP you see each mark gives them a bonus, +1 inv save, feel no pain and so on.

 blackmage wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

mcsheehy wrote:
@ Blackmage,

There is no reason the helldrake would not benefit from the tally. Epidemius' tally requires two key words. Nurgle + Daemon. Both of which the Helldrake has.

I've switched my approach a little and swung a little towards Deathguard. (I have the box anyway)
Going to try and build something around them.

Greater Daemons would be nice...

i meant the bonus of mark itself.

Marks don't give anyone bonuses

yes that's what i meant ty, unless demons index marks, they give bonus.

They don't even give bonuses either, the bonus MUST be on the dataslate to be given.

if you read dataslate about those DP you see each mark gives them a bonus, +1 inv save, feel no pain and so on.

Because it specifically says on their dataslate "if they take this mark they get this bonus", much like most Daemons in the Daemons index have the rule for the bonus on their dataslate i.e. disgustingly resilient. However some Daemons, like the Soul Grinder and strangely Fateweaver, they have the Mark of Chaos but they don't get the bonus because it isn't on their datasheet.

i know that

So Marks of Chaos don't give bonuses.

 mrhappyface wrote:
So Marks of Chaos don't give bonuses.

yes they give for example for DP in demons index

Nurgle= disgusting resilent
Tz=ephemeral form
Sl=quicksilver swiftness
K=unstoppable ferocity
guess they gave those 10 wound demons free marks cause they can be targeted, heretic astartes Dp not

But the marks don't give the bonuses, DR, EF, QS and UF all give the bonuses. If you don't have these rules then it doesn't matter whether you have the mark or not, you won't get the bonus.

i.e. a Daemon with the Mark of Tzeentch doesn't get EF for having the mark, it will only get EF if it says in their datasheet that they have it.

The Chaos Marks only give a buff/bonus to units from the Chaos Daemons section of the Codex/Index.

So the DP from the Marine side, Astartes DP does not gain the 4+ inv or Disgusting resilience.

DP has two entries.
Both with different costs.

mcsheehy wrote:
The Chaos Marks only give a buff/bonus to units from the Chaos Daemons section of the Codex/Index.

So the DP from the Marine side, Astartes DP does not gain the 4+ inv or Disgusting resilience.

DP has two entries.
Both with different costs.

The point I am making is that the marks don't give any kind of bonus whatsoever, for example: in the CSM codex the Lord of Contagion gets Disgustingly resilient, not because he has the mark of Nurgle but because he has it in his datasheet, giving the mark of Nurgle to a regular chaos lord won't give it DR.

 mrhappyface wrote:
But the marks don't give the bonuses, DR, EF, QS and UF all give the bonuses. If you don't have these rules then it doesn't matter whether you have the mark or not, you won't get the bonus.

i.e. a Daemon with the Mark of Tzeentch doesn't get EF for having the mark, it will only get EF if it says in their datasheet that they have it.

wrong read better the DP data slate

So the DP from the Marine side, Astartes DP does not gain the 4+ inv or Disgusting resilience.

im talking of DP FROM DEMONS INDEX those who has 10 WOUNDS not heretic astartes demons

 blackmage wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
But the marks don't give the bonuses, DR, EF, QS and UF all give the bonuses. If you don't have these rules then it doesn't matter whether you have the mark or not, you won't get the bonus.

i.e. a Daemon with the Mark of Tzeentch doesn't get EF for having the mark, it will only get EF if it says in their datasheet that they have it.

wrong read better the DP data slate

So the DP from the Marine side, Astartes DP does not gain the 4+ inv or Disgusting resilience.

im talking of DP FROM DEMONS INDEX those who has 10 WOUNDS not heretic astartes demons

Maybe you should read it again, if marks of chaos in the Daemon side of the index gave you the bonuses then it would tell you at the start of the index "Daemons with the Khorne Keyword gain Unstoppable Furosity" but it doesn't say that. The Daemon prince entry does not tell you that the mark of chaos gives you the bonus either, it mearly states what a Daemon Prince with a given mark of chaos has. This is why the mark of Tzeentch doesn't automatically give Fateweaver EF.

I'm not saying Daemon DP don't get the bonuses, only that the bonuses aren't given by the marks.

he gets the bonus that's enough for me