Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am trying to wrap my head around this one and I am sure that a number of people are going to hate on me for pointing this out but ohh well.

The Crux of the issue is that Ork weaponz/gear as a rule is worse then space Marine equipment, I can live with that, that is as it should be. However, that gear should be appropriately priced to compensate for the lackluster shooting and abilities of that weapon/gear.

So lets do a couple comparisons.

Ork Kill Kannon Vs Space Marine Whirlewind Launcher.

Kill Kannon Is 27pts S7 AP-2 Damage 2 ranged 24 with D6 shots. That means on average your going to get 3-4 shots a turn with 1.5-2 hits total. On the lower end that means 1 hit and upper end 2.
Whirlewind Launcher is 25-34 (Castellan or Vengeance): Is S6 (S7) AP0 (AP-1) Damage 1 (2) Range 72 Ignores LOS and 2D6 Shots (2D3 shots). That averages to 4-5 hits a turn. (2.66-3.00 a turn)

So the Castellan is cheaper but is weaker by S1, no AP compared to AP-2 and Damage 1 compared to D2, but is SIGNIFICANTLY better at shooting/hitting do to BS and Range and ignoring LOS AND has twice as many shots. The Vengeance For 7pts more then the Kill Kannon it has 3x the Range, Ignores LOS does the same damage, same strength and the only thing its weaker at? its AP-1 not AP-2. Has 2D3 instead of 1D6 shots a turn so its better there as well.

Why are these weapons around the same Price as the Ork Kill Kannon?

Ork Power Klaw Vs Space Marine Power Fist

Literally the same in every way except one is a fist and one is a klaw, same price right? Nope, Space Marines Power Fist is 20% cheaper. Now the automatic argument is "Well yeah, but Orkz get more attacks and/or are better at CC" This is true for the most part since our base model is 2 attacks compared to Marines with 1. But if this was true across the board then why are shooting weapons that require BS the same price for Marines as they are for Orkz?

And finally the real kicker, and one that isn't a fair thing to compare but we are going to anyway.

Ork Cybork Vs Space Marine Storm Shield.

Ork Cybork costs 5pts per model and gives the bearer a 6+ FNP roll, not worth taking even slightly.
Space Marine Storm Shield costs 5pts for regular Marines and 15pts for Characters. What does it do? 3++ against everything.

So for an army that relies on CC to do its work, especially since its ranged abilities aren't that great, you would expect Orkz to have a good Invul save in Close combat, or a good FNP roll that basically functions as a 2nd save. And this is incorrect. The best your average Ork or Nob is going to get is a 6+ Save for Boyz with a 6+ FNP if within 3in or a Painboy OR a 4+ save for Nobz with 6+ Save for Painboy within 3in.



So to finish, let me re-emphasize I AM OK with having worse items, abilities and units then space Marines or any other faction for that matter. I just want things to be priced accordingly; and from where I sit, these don't seem to be right.

Dunno about the Kill Kannon and Whirlwind Launcher but for the other ones:

Klaw VS Fist: Most (actually I think all) of the things that can take a Klaw has Strength 5, meaning the Klaw's actual strength is 10 compared to the Fist's 8. So the Klaw is 20% stronger.

Cybork VS Storm Shield: Take another look at anything that can take the Storm Shield; they often either have their costs upped to compensate, have to take some other weapon alongside it, or replaces an existing weapon with the Shield. The Cybork Body, as far as I know, is a straight upgrade without removing anything.

If you really want to compare this in a vacuum, the Grey Knight gets their Nemesis Force Weapons for free while everyone else has to buy a generic Force Weapon. Why? because the codex writers, seeing that everything that can have the Nemesis Force Weapon will have one, worked the cost into the base cost of the units. And that's not even considering potential buffs people can have.

Most of the gear are appropriately priced. It's just that they're not priced on the gear itself, but compensated on the base cost of the units. I think someone else had a conniption over this earlier too when GK Terminators had a higher base cost than normal terminators, until people pointed out that the cost evens out when you apply the model with all of the wargear it needs.

And it's not like this is a new development either. Power Weapons use to cost differently depending on whether you were a character, a vanguard vet, or if you're a grey knight.

Take another look at those things, look at what platforms they can go on, see the minimum AND optimum loadouts for those platforms, then compare that to determine their relative value. Comparing individual weapon costs is pointless. Again, the Nemesis Force Weapons are free, despite being objectively better than most power weapons that other races have to pay for.

Stormshields for 5 points are totally very cheap. A 3++ in things like Terminators should cost at least 10, maybe 7 points. And remember: Invulnerable saves don't protect against Mortal Wounds, but FNP protects against it.

EDIT: Mechaemperor 7000 explained it much better.

 Galas wrote:
And remember: Invulnerable sabes don't protect against Mortal Wounds, but FNP protects against it.

Lol, I read that as "invulnverable BABES", and my mind wandered in ways I was not expecting.

Remember, Storm Shields never cost a whole lot for Terminators. At one point, it was just an alternate option with no points adjustment, but then it became a 5 point and then 10 point upgrade. In 8th Edition, 5 points seems a bit low considering the new AP system, but it would be worth more for Characters and Thunderwolves considering their higher wound counts and roles.

its not fnp though, remember now it is just the rule. cybork body ignores the wound on a 6+ its its own thing now.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
its not fnp though, remember now it is just the rule. cybork body ignores the wound on a 6+ its its own thing now.

The funny thing is it makes a bit of sense.. Invulnerability is basically either technology or supreme skill ignoring a weapons penetration. The sort of "FNP" is basically just outright either surviving the blow or not caring it's there and still pressing on.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Dunno about the Kill Kannon and Whirlwind Launcher but for the other ones:

Klaw VS Fist: Most (actually I think all) of the things that can take a Klaw has Strength 5, meaning the Klaw's actual strength is 10 compared to the Fist's 8. So the Klaw is 20% stronger.

Ahh, good point. Damn shame though that in this edition S10 matters very little when compared to S8. All that this benefits is T5 and T8+ models. Im not really aware of anything thats higher then T8. Add to that the fact that Orks rely on CC to get anything done because as shown before, Ork shooting has actually gotten worse, and you are left with a piss poor reason to tack on 5pts to the PK and not the PF.

Cybork VS Storm Shield: Take another look at anything that can take the Storm Shield; they often either have their costs upped to compensate, have to take some other weapon alongside it, or replaces an existing weapon with the Shield. The Cybork Body, as far as I know, is a straight upgrade without removing anything.

Yes lets take another look. Terminators with Stormshield/Thunder Hammer went from 45pts to 56pts, an 11pt increase. A similar unit for Orkz would be Meganobz who went from 40pts to 54pts. a 14pt increase They also don't have access to Cybork Bodies, which is fine because realistically i still wouldn't take it. So Terminators gained double their durability for 11pts, Meganobz gained 50% more durability for 14pts. But this is fair because those points were factored in right? Bull Excrement.

If you really want to compare this in a vacuum, the Grey Knight gets their Nemesis Force Weapons for free while everyone else has to buy a generic Force Weapon. Why? because the codex writers, seeing that everything that can have the Nemesis Force Weapon will have one, worked the cost into the base cost of the units. And that's not even considering potential buffs people can have.

Most of the gear are appropriately priced. It's just that they're not priced on the gear itself, but compensated on the base cost of the units. I think someone else had a conniption over this earlier too when GK Terminators had a higher base cost than normal terminators, until people pointed out that the cost evens out when you apply the model with all of the wargear it needs.

And it's not like this is a new development either. Power Weapons use to cost differently depending on whether you were a character, a vanguard vet, or if you're a grey knight.

False Equivalency my friend. Storm Shields are not factored into the cost of a terminator or other unit that can take them. For that same example orkified I can point out the Snazz gun being free, but then again only 1 unit can take it and its very much factored into their cost. So Storm Shields are not the same thing even remotely.

Take another look at those things, look at what platforms they can go on, see the minimum AND optimum loadouts for those platforms, then compare that to determine their relative value. Comparing individual weapon costs is pointless. Again, the Nemesis Force Weapons are free, despite being objectively better than most power weapons that other races have to pay for.

Again false equivalency. But lets take a look at some platforms. Terminators got twice as durable and went up less in cost then Meganobz. Lascannons across the board became more deadly and stayed the same in cost, those platforms that can carry Lascannons All went up in price but not by anything like what Ork vehicles went up in price.

For comparison, the Land Raider went 250pts to 356, Hefty bump? Yup lets see. This thing went from 2 TL S9 AP2 shots and 3 TL S5 shots a turn to 4 S9 -3 D6 Damage shots a turn and 6 S5 -1 shots. It also went from dying on average to 2-3 Melta shots to having 16wounds and a 2+ save

The Battlewagon on the other hand went from 110pts naked to 161pts naked, its weapons ALL went up in price as well. My optimum load out for them was 4 Rokkitz and a Kannon for a total of 30pts extra, and a ram. so lets say 145pts. Now? that same load out costs 224pts. The only difference in weapons overall is the Rokkit does 3 damage. The BW is also 16wounds but only T7 and a 4+ save not a 2+ or even a 3+.

So the Land Raider went up in price by about 40%ish but gained literally twice as much dakka and those weapons got better across the board.
The Battlewagon went up in price by about 55%ish gained ZERO Dakka, but the Rokkit does 3 damage now.

I mean I can do another comparison for you if you would like? How about bikes?
SM Scout Bikes went from 18pts to 25pts. They didn't change that much except the bolter doubled up so now its 2 shots at 24 or 4 shots at 12, ohh and they got to keep Turbo Boost.
Ork Warbikers went from 18pts to 27pts. Same thing for them, now they get 6 shots instead of 3TL shots. no turbo boost for these guys though.

Lets also do some math here. SM Scout bikers went from one 4/3rd chance to hit with 1 shot at 24 and 2 shots at 12 to 2 3+ shots at 24 and 4 shots at 12. At 12inches that means almost 3 guaranteed hits.

Orkz on the other hand went from 3 TL Dakka shots which averages 1.6 hits a turn to 6 Dakka shots averaging 2 hits a turn. So Orkz gained less from the change in rules, lost speed compared to their rival and yet got more expensive some how.

Play 8th first. Players way better than you have said Orkz are brutal now so try not to burn your army until after you play some games.

Storm Shields really need to be 8-10 points.

I'm kinda of okay with everything else

Semper, I can understand that you feel strongly about this but please keep the sarcasm and insults to a minimum.

First off, on the subject of the Klaw and Fist, your original complaint is that they were identical but the Klaw cost more. However I showed that the Klaw not only was stronger than the fist, but the strength difference is almost exactly proportional to the cost increase, which was your original argument. I did not say that it was *overall better* than the fist (although I would argue so, considering that a Nob is so much better than a Sergeant in combat, and a Boss can be equipped to take on a captain). You're simply moving the goal post on this one.

As for the meganobz vs terminator argument, no a SS terminator is not the equivalent of a Meganobz. They have drastically different roles and weapon options. They have the same armor and (relative) movement, and that's it. TH/SS Terminators are close combat units designed to tank fire. Meganobz aren't. The only reason you're comparing the two is because the original argument called that the Storm Shield is balanced because the thing carrying it has the point cost factored into it, but Terminators ONLY gained survivability. Lets see what the Meganobz gained:

Ork infantry in general gained better leadership since they won't run if there's at least one unit of 10+ around them. One of their biggest problems in the old edition was that, outside of being taken as the Bullyboyz formation, morale was a huge issue for them since they either krump someone from their own unit or flee.

Meganobz themselves have an ability to stop nearby Orks from running away due to morale.

All of the combi-weapons Meganobz have got buffed, either with double shots or with the ability to constantly fire.

Finally, all of your claims of "False Equivalency" are false. The Grey Knight Example was used specifically because not only were those weapons available for free, but available on MORE units than the Storm Shield. Not only that, but the Nemesis Force Weapon have a very obvious and widespread equivalent in almost every army; power weapons. If Storm shields weren't factored into the base cost of Assault Terminators, then why is the Assault Terminator's base cost higher than that of a normal Terminator despite the two having no differences? By your logic they should be identical. Your example of a Shokk Attack Gun is the actual False Equivalency, as it only appears on one unit and has no immediate comparable item anywhere else. Same goes for the Land Raider VS Battle Wagon comparison; you even stated that your OPTIMUM loadout for the thing went up in cost...but a Land Raider doesn't even get that many options. And that's not even getting into things the Battlewagon did get.

You seem very fixated on comparing point increases with the past edition to this one. Let me reiterate something I've been saying for a long time now: This is a new Edition. a New Game. Comparing things linearly, especially previously good builds, is not possible. The Dynamic of the game has changed. Not to mention whenever people make these comparisons they use one build they stuck with before and compare that. Vehicles in general went up in price. So did MCs. These things are most vulnerable to weapons with multiple wounds per hit. Hence those things had to go up in cost. To keep it uniform, instead of the weapons themselves going up in cost, the platforms they're mounted on goes up. This is why Tankbustas went up, why Meganobz with Kombi-Rokkits went up, and so forth. If you have a cheap weapon that can take out a 300+ point thing in one round of shooting, that is a horrible imbalance.

This edition is shaping up to be very much about infantry hordes with a minimal focus on vehicles and monsters. Let me repeat: there is no way your 7th ed army will fit this. there is no way your 6th ed army will fit this. Hell even your 5th ed army won't fit this. Every edition change will bring change.

My Ork Army is happy, why? Because I always used infantry. I shelved them when it became a losing battle but I didn't care; 5th edition made me shelf by Khorne Berserker army in Rhinos and my Carnifex Nidzilla army. With the new mob rule my Green Tide no longer has to be solely about Ork Boyz nor do they have to bunch up as one mega-unit; I can have one giant squad of Orks in the middle while the rest just stay within yelling distance to benefit from the LD. And it's not like my army is optimal or anything; I now need a Weirdboy because being able to teleport something right behind my opponent's tender nether regions is something I can't pass up.

EDIT: Why am I even bothering arguing with you anymore. Everyone else even helped pointed out the flaw in this argument. I'm just gonna leave this here and this piece of advice: Stop looking at the negatives and actually go play a game. We have the rules, so why not. If you want to rant anyways, there's plenty of cheap places to start up a blog.

Orks seem impressively powerful. Ghazghkull being around gives them an extra attack, their choppas give an additional attack, they can shoot their sluggas in melee and with over 20 boyz in the unit you get an extra attacks. That's 5 attacks each in melee, even for the boss with a klaw! That's insanely good. A mob of 30 is going to obliterate anything, especially as they're hitting on 3's. Give them 6+ fnp and in melee against quite a few things they'll be getting 2 6+ saves. I'm actually not sure how Death Guard could deal with that, I'm not even sure how most armies could deal with that, except for maybe Guardsan spam.
So moral of the story is, take Ghazghkull and lots of boyz