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Made in se
Been Around the Block




Sweden

So, I was on the Escapist earlier today, when I stumbled across this thread:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.960256-The-state-of-Games-Workshop

Now, I can understand if GW don't want you playing with Privateer Press-branded dice or tape measure, for example, but to demand that nothing but GW-brand gear be used, not even allowing for generic dice that couldn't be indentified? Banning conversions because "official kit", completely flying in the face of the very idea of "your dudes"?

Somebody please tell me that this is just a ridiculous anomaly, or has anyone else actually experienced this as well?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Shangri-LA

I have a hard time believing most of that.

Especially this:
Only official kits can be used. When I pressed him on this, he said if GW sells a kit, you can't substitute in a conversion of something else. GW has an official Battlewagon kit, so you can only use that kit for battlewagons. No more looted tanks, no more using Age of Sigmar dudes as other dudes, no more kit-bashed Inquisitors or converted Terminators from other army ranges, nothing.
Now the grace allowed is conversions are okay if there is no official kit. GW doesn't make a librarian on a bike for normal marines, so feel free to make your own. But they do make normal librarians, so that kitbash out of a grey knight box has to go.

-only official GW carrying cases. GW cases are gak and almost always break models, and they make loads of models that don't fit inside what cases they do make. I have an Ork stompa, and GW doesn't make a case that fits it.
I even asked about my backpack I carry my rule books in and he shrugged and said he's prefer if I didn't bring it.

-Only GW dice and accessories. No more generic $5 per 1lbs dice, no more generic measuring tape, or custom objective markers. The rule of thumb he gave me is that if GW sells it, you have to use the GW version of it.
I jokingly asked if we had to use only GW paints and brushes and he said he won't ask, but don't ever admit to anything.


Ignoring the opening paragraph's dig at GW which makes the entire post suspect to me, the list of "rules" above seem like the same horror story "rules" that have been rumored to exist in GW stores for years.

But, let's say this is legit. The typical response to people complaining about GW policies in GW stores is to remind the person that:

1) GW stores are for making sales, not for being community hang outs
2) It's their store so their rules, and if you don't like it you can kick rocks
3) Find a mate and play at their house, form a club, or find a LGS that doesn't have such a strict code of behavior

But honestly, with the level of engagement GW has been making with the community and the changes they have been making to known problems within their operations, I find the entire complaint suspect and rather far-fetched.


   
Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator





Looking for the Rest of the II Legion

I've seen less advanced stages of this sort of thing happen, but always within reason; If a friend wanted to play an entirely different system's models, then we'd go to a LGS rather than the GW store. Never had any issues with conversions though.

"My friend, you would not tell with such high zest, to children ardent for some desperate glory the old lie, Dulce et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori."
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Made in es
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Barcelona, Spain

 Mangod wrote:
So, I was on the Escapist earlier today, when I stumbled across this thread:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/s/read/18.960256-The-state-of-Games-Workshop

Now, I can understand if GW don't want you playing with Privateer Press-branded dice or tape measure, for example, but to demand that nothing but GW-brand gear be used, not even allowing for generic dice that couldn't be indentified? Banning conversions because "official kit", completely flying in the face of the very idea of "your dudes"?

Somebody please tell me that this is just a ridiculous anomaly, or has anyone else actually experienced this as well?


The moment you mentioned the escapist and gw I knew this was going to be bs. Sad thing is that they buy it.
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




For what it's worth, at my local GW conversions are of course encouraged (nice ones are photographed and put on the store's facebook page). It's always been GW's policy to do so, and you see many conversions in WD. And why wouldn't they like it? You often see people buy multiple kits to build a single unit, it's more money for GW.
Non-GW products (like parts from anvil industry or stuff like that) are tolerated. Maybe if you were starting to tell newcomers to go and buy that instead of GW's stuff, the manager would talk to you, but if you reply "I got it from X or Y" when someone asks you about it, there's really no issue.
They provide dice and measuring tape, so not many people bring their own. I still often bring my own measuring tape (because we're always looking for it), and never had problems.

The only time I had problems with non-GW stuff is when I was building stuff at their table, using my own plastic glue. They asked me to put it away, but they let me use the store's glue (for free of course).
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I have a hard time believing most of that.




"Enforced by a regional manager". Having been around when some of these edicts have been passed to the manager's at store level I can believe it. The amount of gak I've heard come out of the mouths of GW staff on mini power trips ("ALL SPECIAL CHARACTERS ON THE TABLE IMMEDIATELY EXPLODE!" ) makes this absolutely believable.

I don't believe for a second its corporate policy though, just a regional manager being a gakker.
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




Sweden

fresus wrote:
For what it's worth, at my local GW conversions are of course encouraged (nice ones are photographed and put on the store's facebook page). It's always been GW's policy to do so, and you see many conversions in WD. And why wouldn't they like it? You often see people buy multiple kits to build a single unit, it's more money for GW.
Non-GW products (like parts from anvil industry or stuff like that) are tolerated. Maybe if you were starting to tell newcomers to go and buy that instead of GW's stuff, the manager would talk to you, but if you reply "I got it from X or Y" when someone asks you about it, there's really no issue.
They provide dice and measuring tape, so not many people bring their own. I still often bring my own measuring tape (because we're always looking for it), and never had problems.

The only time I had problems with non-GW stuff is when I was building stuff at their table, using my own plastic glue. They asked me to put it away, but they let me use the store's glue (for free of course).


That was what stuck out the most for me, and the reason I posted this; assuming that the linked OP isn't lying, the GW store was giving him crap about using a converted ("Looted") Landraider as an Ork Battlewagon, even though they're both GW kit in the first place. It just seemed so insane for GW (who for a long time was banging on about how they care about the models, and the artistry, and "your dudes" and being anything but a game) to be cracking down on conversions using their own kits.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/06/10 08:15:40


 
   
Made in gb
Cunning Chieftain






Almost certainly embellished if not outright made up.

Here's a classic Viz strip which at one point was used in GW staff training as an example of what not to do.



How about we don't embed things with language we don't allow on the site yeah ?
Reds8n


http://jodrell.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/page-1.jpg

How do I know this? I received that training around 2010.

Yes my knowledge is out of date - but the stuff he describes I've not experienced in a GW for a long, long time. Because it's not conducive to sales.

People might bang on about the pre-2010 Ten Commandments, and Tom Kirby's little black book as supporting evidence - but that info is even more outdated than my own.

Around May 2010, a new set of training was released. And it worked. None of the stuff this poster claims is in there. None of it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/10 08:47:51


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Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 Mangod wrote:
fresus wrote:
For what it's worth, at my local GW conversions are of course encouraged (nice ones are photographed and put on the store's facebook page). It's always been GW's policy to do so, and you see many conversions in WD. And why wouldn't they like it? You often see people buy multiple kits to build a single unit, it's more money for GW.
Non-GW products (like parts from anvil industry or stuff like that) are tolerated. Maybe if you were starting to tell newcomers to go and buy that instead of GW's stuff, the manager would talk to you, but if you reply "I got it from X or Y" when someone asks you about it, there's really no issue.
They provide dice and measuring tape, so not many people bring their own. I still often bring my own measuring tape (because we're always looking for it), and never had problems.

The only time I had problems with non-GW stuff is when I was building stuff at their table, using my own plastic glue. They asked me to put it away, but they let me use the store's glue (for free of course).


That was what stuck out the most for me, and the reason I posted this; assuming that the linked OP isn't lying, the GW store was giving him crap about using a converted ("Looted") Landraider as an Ork Battlewagon, even though they're both GW kit in the first place. It just seemed so insane for GW (who for a long time was banging on about how they care about the models, and the artistry, and "your dudes" and being anything but a game) to be cracking down on conversions using their own kits.

Some employees be crazy
I myself have been into a store i would never go back again to even after just a short time, But others go back again and again to.
Personally i think the worst are the fans that get the jobs sometimes, since they will also have there own little ideas on how the game should be.
It is extreme case tho if it is.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Mangod wrote:

That was what stuck out the most for me, and the reason I posted this; assuming that the linked OP isn't lying, the GW store was giving him crap about using a converted ("Looted") Landraider as an Ork Battlewagon, even though they're both GW kit in the first place. It just seemed so insane for GW (who for a long time was banging on about how they care about the models, and the artistry, and "your dudes" and being anything but a game) to be cracking down on conversions using their own kits.


GW store seem to be run as fiefdoms unto their own with a lot of "policies" getting slung around that don't gel with corporate, and unless you call them out on it (which most people won't, as they want a place to play) it will continue.
To give a personal example, back about 10 years ago I converted some Plagueriders (Plaguebearers riding Beasts of Nurgle) for my Storm of Chaos Daemons list with the core of the beasts themselves being made from papier mache (the rest, including the riders themselves being either actual GW parts or GS). Now the store I made them at whilst at Uni thought they were awesome and lauded the creativity. I went home for the summer and used them at the GW I frequented before I went to Uni and was told "Get those Mr Hankys off the table NOW!"
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch






I'm of two minds on stuff like this. On one hand...it's their store and they can create whatever crazy rules they want. There's nothing legally wrong with that.

On the other hand, I sure as hell wouldn't shop there and I'd let GW know that directly. Let them know (professionally) that you won't be shopping at that retail location and explain why. If GW sees slumping sales or receives numerous complaints about a store there is a possibility they'd do something about it.
   
Made in us
Splattered With Acrylic Paint





I doubt the veracity of the linked story based on tone, verbage, and if course source. However I've seen stuff that bonkers at the now long closed Tukwila store in the SeaTac area myself (hence my willingness to call out the location) so I'm willing to admit there could be a small kernel of truth. I've come across some mini-hitler managers occasionally.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/11 00:44:21


"Gaze ye not into the abyss less the abyss' boyfriend get narky" - Nietzsche (slightly paraphrased) 
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






I've seen enough stupid rules by store managers that I believe this person ran across some of these, like a manager not letting us use models in his store unless they were based with sand, painted goblin green and drybrushed sunburst yellow like Eavy Metal did way back then. Some are pushing it too far into a parody piece, such as the manager not wanting his backpack in the store because it's not GW branded.

There's no doubt some truth in there, he should have just stuck with that rather than embellishing it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/11 00:52:14


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Seems a bit far fetched. I have seen some stupid moves from GW managers, but some of this doesn't make sense. Hating on conversions using GW parts? I'd have to see it to believe it.
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




Sweden

dosiere wrote:
Seems a bit far fetched. I have seen some stupid moves from GW managers, but some of this doesn't make sense. Hating on conversions using GW parts? I'd have to see it to believe it.


I mean, it could be a WAAAY! to stringent interpretation of WYSIWYG, or not wanting people to get confused over whether it's an allied Landraider or a conversion, but it still seems so utterly insane, especially since GW have been trying so hard to turn things around with their public image recently...
   
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Bird from Hell






It seems a bit excessive, but let's be honest here, how many people would really be surprised if the author provided indisputable confirmation of the story?

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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I have a hard time believing most of that.

Especially this:
Only official kits can be used. When I pressed him on this, he said if GW sells a kit, you can't substitute in a conversion of something else. GW has an official Battlewagon kit, so you can only use that kit for battlewagons. No more looted tanks, no more using Age of Sigmar dudes as other dudes, no more kit-bashed Inquisitors or converted Terminators from other army ranges, nothing.
Now the grace allowed is conversions are okay if there is no official kit. GW doesn't make a librarian on a bike for normal marines, so feel free to make your own. But they do make normal librarians, so that kitbash out of a grey knight box has to go.

-only official GW carrying cases. GW cases are gak and almost always break models, and they make loads of models that don't fit inside what cases they do make. I have an Ork stompa, and GW doesn't make a case that fits it.
I even asked about my backpack I carry my rule books in and he shrugged and said he's prefer if I didn't bring it.

-Only GW dice and accessories. No more generic $5 per 1lbs dice, no more generic measuring tape, or custom objective markers. The rule of thumb he gave me is that if GW sells it, you have to use the GW version of it.
I jokingly asked if we had to use only GW paints and brushes and he said he won't ask, but don't ever admit to anything.


Ignoring the opening paragraph's dig at GW which makes the entire post suspect to me, the list of "rules" above seem like the same horror story "rules" that have been rumored to exist in GW stores for years.


And in a fair few cases actually did, though not by diktat from GWHQ, just at the discretion of managers. It's still GWHQ's responsibility, however, since they refuse to do anything about these cases and they're the ones setting the often unacheivable sales targets that tend to be what drives managers to such dickery in the first place.

But, let's say this is legit. The typical response to people complaining about GW policies in GW stores is to remind the person that:

1) GW stores are for making sales, not for being community hang outs


Then GW needs to drop this "hobby centre" guff - open standard retail hours, remove tables and have only temporary demo-pods for new releases or promos, no more painting station, no more games nights. IE, people can make the "they're stores for making sales" argument when GW starts acting like a proper modern retail sales chain rather than half-measure FLGS limited to one company's products. As it stands, even with the move to 1-mans and the more "polished" target-focused attitude they've been pushing staff towards over the last few years, the company is still keen to create the impression that they're more than "just" a shop where you buy things, so they don't get to run away from that whenever it suits them.

2) It's their store so their rules, and if you don't like it you can kick rocks


That's self-evident, but that doesn't mean those rules are above criticism, nor does it mean they're logical or fair in any given instance.

3) Find a mate and play at their house, form a club, or find a LGS that doesn't have such a strict code of behavior


Also self-evident, and also not actually an argument that either validates the silly rules or undermines the complaint about them.

But honestly, with the level of engagement GW has been making with the community and the changes they have been making to known problems within their operations, I find the entire complaint suspect and rather far-fetched.


I have no problem believing it. This is a company that has no issues inviting people to come along and play at their shops, then telling people they can't use some units or even their whole army because even though they're GW products the store can't sell those specific items. If they'll stoop to "hey, lovely expensive resin tank there, but sorry you have to pack it away because we've arbitrarily decided models from that specific part of our company don't actually count as being sold by us, because I'm falling a bit short on my targets this month", I have no problems seeing some self-serving store or regional manager banning conversions for things that already have a "proper" model to try and boost their numbers a bit, it's exactly the sort of short-termist thinking that retail-sales culture encourages.


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Honestly I would be way more upset about this if I were a store manager having these kinds of rules forced on me.

I wonder if this is true, and if these "new rules" are universal across all GW stores, or if they're regional. Either way, it won't be long before players dry up from GW stores almost entirely if you can't even use Chessex dice or a tape measure you had at home. It's just a shame that GW is so short-sighted.

 
   
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I call 'BS' on this story, in no uncertain terms...
   
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Midwest USA

Lol, the Escapist? That place used to have a bunch of cool articles and contributors, but I quit viewing their site a few years ago when they (over the course of years) removed my favorite contributing creators. I won't read the article, but I can relate how my closest GW handles things: pretty relaxed and easy going.

First off, one store is not a large enough sample size to criticize an entire company. As others have mentioned, if this scenario is true, then it is an example of one person trying to force their vision on other gamers.

Second, GW is getting more relaxed about non-GW bits and conversions. At my local store, I have seen entire models from other ranges be used to represent both in-print and out-of-print models. They got away with it by having a complete GW model on the base in some way (either as a decoration or a casualty). I have even heard that the model must be more than 50% GW pieces to be okay.

Third, the two managers at my GW are both relaxed enough to have conversations about other wargames or hobbies, especially since they might have played other games over the years (Battletech, D&D, and others). And never have I been criticized or challenged for using my Stanley brand tape measure that I swiped from my dad's toolbox. I mean, would the manager mentioned not let you play if you used non-GW glues for your models? My local GW manager has a bottle of Loctite super glue on hand for model repairs!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/12 17:32:13


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Shangri-LA

 Yodhrin wrote:


And in a fair few cases actually did, though not by diktat from GWHQ, just at the discretion of managers. It's still GWHQ's responsibility, however, since they refuse to do anything about these cases and they're the ones setting the often unacheivable sales targets that tend to be what drives managers to such dickery in the first place.

But, let's say this is legit. The typical response to people complaining about GW policies in GW stores is to remind the person that:

1) GW stores are for making sales, not for being community hang outs


Then GW needs to drop this "hobby centre" guff - open standard retail hours, remove tables and have only temporary demo-pods for new releases or promos, no more painting station, no more games nights. IE, people can make the "they're stores for making sales" argument when GW starts acting like a proper modern retail sales chain rather than half-measure FLGS limited to one company's products. As it stands, even with the move to 1-mans and the more "polished" target-focused attitude they've been pushing staff towards over the last few years, the company is still keen to create the impression that they're more than "just" a shop where you buy things, so they don't get to run away from that whenever it suits them.


Not necessarily. A hobby center could simply be a place to buy hobby products. But really, stop it. You know damn well GW stores are sales portals and that's it. Maybe that will change in the coming months or years, as GW pivots more towards a customer-friendly approach, but for the last decade at least, GW stores are where you go to buy. Playing is secondary. Just because YOU think that more services should be provided by a GW shop doesn't mean they have to conform to your wishes.


 Yodhrin wrote:
2) It's their store so their rules, and if you don't like it you can kick rocks


That's self-evident, but that doesn't mean those rules are above criticism, nor does it mean they're logical or fair in any given instance.

3) Find a mate and play at their house, form a club, or find a LGS that doesn't have such a strict code of behavior


Also self-evident, and also not actually an argument that either validates the silly rules or undermines the complaint about them.


Never said the any of these "rules" are above complaint, rather I was listing the most common responses to people griping about supposed GW's store polices- real or invented. Those responses are so common because they are really the only real recourse an unhappy player has when it comes to dealing with store policies they don't agree with. Find somewhere else to shop and play. Done.


 Yodhrin wrote:
But honestly, with the level of engagement GW has been making with the community and the changes they have been making to known problems within their operations, I find the entire complaint suspect and rather far-fetched.


I have no problem believing it. This is a company that has no issues inviting people to come along and play at their shops, then telling people they can't use some units or even their whole army because even though they're GW products the store can't sell those specific items. If they'll stoop to "hey, lovely expensive resin tank there, but sorry you have to pack it away because we've arbitrarily decided models from that specific part of our company don't actually count as being sold by us, because I'm falling a bit short on my targets this month", I have no problems seeing some self-serving store or regional manager banning conversions for things that already have a "proper" model to try and boost their numbers a bit, it's exactly the sort of short-termist thinking that retail-sales culture encourages.



And I think this is the heart of the matter.

Whether or not someone believes these claims probably lies with how they view GW in general. If they view GW in a favorable light these claims likely seem absurd because the claims don't conform to their view of GW. If they think GW is the boot-stomping evil empire of gaming then of course they will believe any sort of junk posted online that confirms their bias.

   
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I remember one GW store greatly disliking my old models (totally legal just old because I liked the old chaos marine stuff) they never banned them but we're dicks to me a lot and to this day there is only 1 GW I'll ever go into (I seem to have bad luck with these people) I don't I know.

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I don't believe it. Some of that stuff by themselves, sure, but not taken altogether.

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Focused Fire Warrior






I know that my local GW doesn't allow people to play Bloodbowl or Horus Heresy on site. The manager's rationale is fairly straightforward: He's told to use the table space to advertise the products sold in-store, corporate does not have them (or even allow them to) sell Forgeworld models save for the occasional special promotion, and since corporate does not care if they sell thousands of dollars in space marines online due to someone wanting to play them in this store he's effectively hurting himself every time someone walks in and is interested in them or doesn't get to play his AoS army because all the tables are full up with resin power armor.

That's a perfectly resonable position and I think he's well within his rights to run the store that way, the direct consequence of that, however, is that I'll be buying Battlefleet Gothic somewhere else, somewhere I'll be able to play it by the time I've finally finished painting it all.

We did have one HH player who wouldn't stop griping about it though ... It got so bad the manager had to call the store to attention and explain that they didn't have a problem with forgeworld models, rules, or conversions, but that they just weren't supporting game systems that they weren't allowed to sell in the store.

This escapist thread reads like something of the latter case. A number of the guy's specific complaints are perfectly normal retail practices (can't use the employee restroom? ) while others are dubious, but possible. Seems more likely he has a legit complaint that he's blowing way out of proportion, and the audience is just eating it up. (I'm 30 posts in and I can't stand to look any further, I checked out around where one was complaining about the outrageous price of a mere baneblade.)

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Los Angeles

What happens when you have to pee though? And you play at the store for hours. I guess you could piss in an empty water bottle in your car....only problem is leaving your models/stuff unsupervised while you tinkle.

 
   
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Kirby's 10 commandments?

Black book?

Wha...?

   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Kirby's 10 commandments?

Black book?

Wha...?


The 10 commandments were just a customer service related poster in the staff rooms/back room/toilet door (in the case of one GW I used to frequent). Things such as always acknowledge the customer etc. etc.

Can't exactly speak for the exact details of the black book, having never worked for GW, (though I seem to recall it being red too) but IIRC it was some form of manager's handbook. Several have tried to be sold on eBay, but I can't recall a single successfully completed auction of one as they've always been pulled.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 11:37:10


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Captain Joystick wrote:
We did have one HH player who wouldn't stop griping about it though ... It got so bad the manager had to call the store to attention and explain that they didn't have a problem with forgeworld models, rules, or conversions, but that they just weren't supporting game systems that they weren't allowed to sell in the store.


Of course with that attitude store will be missing on stuff said HH player WOULD have bought. I know I would not buy ANY stuff from store that prevents me from playing HH. Not for 40k, not for 30k(which btw still requires non-FW purchaces and can benefit from non-required purchaces as well).

Sure they can do such limitations but another thing is it good even for them.

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Melbourne .au

1) Acknowledge All People Who Enter the Store. Don’t allow anyone to enter the store without being acknowledged. You must let them know that you are aware of their presence in the store and you will be with them as soon as possible. All customers should be spoken to. If you are too busy to talk to them straight away a cheery “hello” within 30 seconds is always possible.

2) Be Aware of Customers and their Behavior in the Store. Make sure you are always aware of what customers are doing or any non-verbal messages customers are sending out. You need to recognize signals like impatience (e.g. how long someone has been waiting) or, on occasions, suspicious behavior.

3) Show Enthusiasm and Be Cheerful. Our success as a retail chain is based upon high levels of enthusiasm displayed by our staff. None of us feel enthusiastic and cheerful all the time, but we must not allow our customers to think we are anything else but.

4) Be Attentive and Listen Carefully to Customer Needs. Listen attentively, and show the customer that you have listened to whatever they are saying. Listening is the best way of establishing what the customer needs - don’t waste your opportunity. Find and act upon their needs.

5) Promote the Hobby. This is what it’s all about: Your ability to promote the unique benefits of the hobby, to gain new recruits to the hobby, and then keep them involved as committed hobbyists.

6) Establish a Rapport with the Customer. What does this mean? To hold conversations and from a common bond with the customers you speak to. The art is to always convey a friendly impression. To do this ask and use their name, talk enthusiastically about their army, relating their army to your own personal hobby experience. For potential and non-hobbyists, try to find something else you have in common.

7) Display an In-Depth Knowledge of Company Products. You are expected to display expert knowledge of Games Workshop products. You are the font of all hobby knowledge in your local area. You must be able to tailor your descriptions to suit the customer’s own level of knowledge of our games.

8) Maintain High Standards of Personal Appearance and Hygiene. Games Workshop provides company clothing; Make sure it is kept clean and presentable. The important about your appearance is that you do not offend any of the wide range of people who visit your store. The same goes for personal hygiene - keep clean and make sure you smell fresh.

9) Ask Questions which obtain the Best Information Concerning Customer Needs. Use questions that obtain relevant information from customers so that you are able to give them what they need. The use of open-ended questions will help you achieve this aim. Open-ended questions are those which cannot be answers with either a “yes” or “no”.

10) Show Courtesy. All customers deserve to be treated with the utmost courtesy and politeness at all times. Only the highest standards are acceptable.


   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well those 10 don't seem that weird to me. If anything pretty standard.

”Buddhism doesn't tell you what is false and what is true but it encourages you to find out for yourself.” ~ Chogyam Trungpa ~ 
   
 
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