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I am curious what everyone thinks about MSU vs. Big ol' blobs of units. Different armies have different considerations, obviously, but I'm curious if I'm missing anything in the new rules that impacts people's decisions in the general sense.

Many Small Units:
-Can spread out if needed
-Less likely to lose models to Morale
-Melee MSU can engage more enemies, and Shooty MSU lose less shots when retreating from melee
-More "Free" upgrades like Exarchs

Editing in some more points for having MSU:

The Happy Anarchist wrote: Extra special/heavy wepons

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:-Cover is more available to you
-able to hold more objectives
-movement is easier for you, less likely to become the victim of an enemy flanking you
[paraphrasing]-Tactical advantage during deployment, holding on to critical units to deploy for best effect

One Big unit:
-Can Split fire freely now, unlike previous editions
-More models are buffed by psycher abilities and other single-unit buffs

Editing in some more points for having one big unit:

Lance845 wrote:its easier to get more milage from character aoe buffs with blobs. When the characters radius is only 3-6" how many different units can you really fot around it?

Cilithan wrote:Having a small amount of units increases the chance of going first, which - to me - is a big reason to avoid MSU .

The Happy Anarchist wrote:-A lot of the objectives are "destroy X unit" for VPs... It's much easier to destroy MSU's than it is to destroy a big unit.
-single bigger units are also able to absorb more damage before losing special weapons.

Note on edits - I'm not including things that I consider redundant, and there are a few times that people list advantages for blobs that come with simply having more models. The comparison isn't 20 models vs. 10 models, it's 20 models in one unit vs. 20 models split in two units.

For me personally, it seemed like MSU was a no-brainer until I put together a list with two Farseers and two units of 5 Dark Reapers and two units of 5 Fire Dragons and thought to myself... "well damn, I can get a lot more mileage out of guide if it was only one unit for each aspect, and guide is a big deal..." so despite the long list of reasons to go MSU, that one big reason to go big might sway me. What does everyone else think?

It seems like it's mostly going to an MSU centric edition for dodging morale and taking more special weapons but a couple more benefits to blobs are that the less units you have total the more often you will get the first turn, and aside from just effecting more models with buff abilities there's also a couple specific special rules that promote giant squads, like necron reanimation protocol, the orkz mob rule, and the genestealer flurry of claws bonus.

Also its easier to get more milage from character aoe buffs with blobs. When the characters radius is only 3-6" how many different units can you really fot around it? And how mibile are the msu really if they keep loosing all their buffs.

I think a balance is needed in any list; I'll personally be running MSU with at least one larger squad.

 Lance845 wrote:
Also its easier to get more milage from character aoe buffs with blobs. When the characters radius is only 3-6" how many different units can you really fot around it? And how mibile are the msu really if they keep loosing all their buffs.

Hadn't thought of that, thanks

I suspect that different lists will gain more mileage from msu or blob armies depending on a case by case basis. MSU is further assisted by the ability to stack more units into a transport. I think MSU will be present in every competive list. Blobs will be present in lists with unit buffing abilities and HQs with some form of MSU for additional support. Blobs I feel have an advantage in close combat as well. Overwatch and just the flak they take getting to their targets will likely leave their numbers large enough to hurt the unit they charge and with things like Tau jet infantry shenanigans and the games faster pace being able to wipe a unit out in a single combat phase may be a nice thing to have.

I agree with the close-combat point! There will definitely be specialization of roles in a lot of armies; I know my MSU's will be carrying the load in shooting while my CC units will consist of as many as I can fit in a Stormraven or Land Raider.

Certain armies will probably lean more toward one extreme of the MSU/blob spectrum.

My Eldar probably won't be running around in groups of more than 10, with 5-6 being a pretty typical squad size for Aspect Warriors.

Tyranids/Orks/IG on the other hand can do blobs very effectively, and aren't as likely to go pure MSU.

True, I've seen a lot of infantry-heavy IG lists thus far that seem to work pretty well.

Having a small amount of units increases the chance of going first, which - to me - is a big reason to avoid MSU .

Another thing to consider is VPs.

A lot of the objectives are "destroy X unit" for VPs. Or multiple units. It's much easier to destroy MSU's than it is to destroy a big unit. It's especially noticeable comparing 5 man units to 10 man units.

Similarly, controlling objectives is purely # of models within 3" Which means that spending more of your points on special/heavy weapons will result in less models.

On the other hand, MSU with their extra special/heavy weapons will be able to kill more models, helping with both of those objectives in that way.

Last bit - single bigger units are also able to absorb more damage before losing special weapons.

 Deathypoo wrote:
I am curious what everyone thinks about MSU vs. Big ol' blobs of units. Different armies have different considerations, obviously, but I'm curious if I'm missing anything in the new rules that impacts people's decisions in the general sense.

Many Small Units:
-Can spread out if needed
-Less likely to lose models to Morale
-Melee MSU can engage more enemies, and Shooty MSU lose less shots when retreating from melee
-More "Free" upgrades like Exarchs

One Big unit:
-Can Split fire freely now, unlike previous editions
-More models are buffed by psycher abilities and other single-unit buffs

Editing in some more points for having one big unit:

Lance845 wrote:its easier to get more milage from character aoe buffs with blobs. When the characters radius is only 3-6" how many different units can you really fot around it?

Cilithan wrote:Having a small amount of units increases the chance of going first, which - to me - is a big reason to avoid MSU .

For me personally, it seemed like MSU was a no-brainer until I put together a list with two Farseers and two units of 5 Dark Reapers and two units of 5 Fire Dragons and thought to myself... "well damn, I can get a lot more mileage out of guide if it was only one unit for each aspect, and guide is a big deal..." so despite the long list of reasons to go MSU, that one big reason to go big might sway me. What does everyone else think?

This really comes down to the army your playing. Armies that have a lot of LD mitigation will lean heavy on blob units while ones that have little or no LD mitigation will lean MSU.

Advantages for MSU- Cover is more available to you, chaff units will lose less to morale, deployment will turn out in your favor, your able to hold more objectives, movement is easier for you, less likely to become the victim of an enemy flanking you, more special weapons

Disadvantages for MSU- Harder to hold objectives, Less chaff models, usually lose bonuses that come with larger units (20+ boys in 1 squad get +1 attack), force multipliers affect fewer models, more likely to be surrounded by blob units.

Advantages for Blobs- Will hold objectives for longer, able to take more models, force multipliers affect more models, more likely to stack force multipliers (Boyz getting 5 base attacks each is a thing), can surround units in CC, can prevent units with Fly from getting past them.

Disadvantages for Blobs- Can hold few objectives, lose lots of models to morale, Deployment wont turn out in your favor, can have models caught in limbo between two units in CC, less special weapons, losing force multipliers hurts more, cover is basically never going to happen.

Probably the biggest thing is cover. Elite armies that pay 15+ PPM need to be able to stick to cover while non-elite armies that pay 6 PPM really have less to worry about. Most of the time you will find the best thing to do is have a mix of MSU and Blob units. MSU for holding objectives that are not threatened, and Blob units for Objectives that are and so you can maximize force multipliers.

There is nothing preventing a unit from controlling multiple objectives now. It is just e player with the most models.

The thing is that many of the benefits of MSU have been mitigated to some extent. Much harder to waste overkill with split fire. Lose out on buffs, etc. multi charge and engaging multiple units is much easier now. I think a balance of both will be ideal. You have your fast specialized throw away units that range far away from your main force. And then you have the core of much larger units that includes a lot of your leadership mitigation

There are more cunning things you can do with msu is stash units in deepstrike and transports. 2 5 mans in a transport is the same deployment as tena man squad.

Some characters just give absurd buffs though like Guilliman. Without templates there's no reason not to blob them, especially if in that blob there's like four 5-man squads. Then you've got your MSU's if you're in a situation where you need it too.

I think leadership or other special rules really factor now in 8th.

Necrons and Orks are rewarded for having large units (Mob rule and reanimation protocols) but Ad Mech, for example, gains nothing because of their low leadership and potential battleshock losses.

 Leth wrote:
There is nothing preventing a unit from controlling multiple objectives now. It is just e player with the most models.

The thing is that many of the benefits of MSU have been mitigated to some extent. Much harder to waste overkill with split fire. Lose out on buffs, etc. multi charge and engaging multiple units is much easier now. I think a balance of both will be ideal. You have your fast specialized throw away units that range far away from your main force. And then you have the core of much larger units that includes a lot of your leadership mitigation

Technically possible but unlikely. The rules for placing objectives specify 12" apart. So a unit will be spread thin trying to control two objectives, with lots of models bridging the gap.

One thing MSU can do is defense in depth. A 30 model unit that gets assaulted is tied up in combat, and withdrawing from combat will nullify those points for a whole turn. Three 10-man units can use one unit to screen the other two from assault. It takes the charge and withdraws (losing shooting from one unit), then the other two shoot at close range. If you want, one of the fresh units can then charge, tying the enemy squad up in close combat.

An upside of blobs is that CPs go further (although you probably have less of them). Insane Bravery after a 30 man squad loses 10 is much more impactful than after a 10 man squad loses 4. Likewise, Counterattack on a 30 man squad does way more damage than Counterattack on a 10 man squad.

Each base is 1 inch, each model has a 2 inch gap. The objectives are three inches apart with a 3 inch control radius.

So 6 inches between objectives, that is 4 models to be in control of both with one unit.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Advantages for MSU-... deployment will turn out in your favor...

Disadvantages for Blobs- Deployment wont turn out in your favor

Could you elaborate on this? If we each have 20 SM but I have 2 units of 10 and you have 4 units of 5, it's true that you will get to see my finished deployment before I see you finish yours... but I'll also get to go first, which imho is a much bigger bonus.

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Advantages for MSU-... deployment will turn out in your favor...

Disadvantages for Blobs- Deployment wont turn out in your favor

Could you elaborate on this? If we each have 20 SM but I have 2 units of 10 and you have 4 units of 5, it's true that you will get to see my finished deployment before I see you finish yours... but I'll also get to go first, which imho is a much bigger bonus.

That is kind of a bad example it more comes to hard counter units that don't have a special deployment option. Like if two of my units have heavy weapons and two have special weapons while you have 2 special weapons in each squad I can place my Heavy Weapons last so that from turn 1 they are firing on one of your units, where as if I had 2 units of 10 when I put down my second unit you could put your second unit next to your first unit, making my heavy weapon only useful if I move it.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Advantages for MSU-... deployment will turn out in your favor...

Disadvantages for Blobs- Deployment wont turn out in your favor

Could you elaborate on this? If we each have 20 SM but I have 2 units of 10 and you have 4 units of 5, it's true that you will get to see my finished deployment before I see you finish yours... but I'll also get to go first, which imho is a much bigger bonus.

That is kind of a bad example it more comes to hard counter units that don't have a special deployment option. Like if two of my units have heavy weapons and two have special weapons while you have 2 special weapons in each squad I can place my Heavy Weapons last so that from turn 1 they are firing on one of your units, where as if I had 2 units of 10 when I put down my 2 unit you could put your second unit on the same side making my heavy weapon only useful if I move it.

That makes sense, thanks!