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Having read the Faction Focus articles about Chaos, I thought Havocs are the best Heavy Support option for CSM lists in 8th edition. Questioning that logic right now, thinking Predators are the better option.
Predators are basically the same loadout we have seen in previous editions, except:
- They can no take a dirge caster, dozer blade, extra armor, or demonic possession.
- They can take weapons from the combi-weapons list. This means you could have a combi-bolter, or flamer, or plasma.
Predators are power level 10. A 5 man havoc squad is power level 7, let's add 5 more models to take them to power level 10.
- Both units have the same save.
- Predator has one additional wound.
- Both units can take a combi weapon.
- The predator can take an additional heavy weapon (havoc launcher). It must take lascannons, but that's not a bad thing. D6 * 5 wounds per turn.
- The havocs can take 4 heavy weapons. While they can take AP -4 multi-meltas, the AP -3 of the lascannon is not bad and has a longer range. Either way, D6 * 4 wounds per turn.
- Predator leadership is 8, Havoc champion has leadership of 8. The Predator will be less subject to the effects of morale.
- The havocs have the benefit of additional bolter shots, which is important, but will not be used as often.
It feels like Predators are the superior option in most cases. What am I missing?
Nevelon wrote: Preds are also more susceptible to multi-wound weapons.
This is a huge deal and I don't understand why the OP didn't mention it. To be clear: multi-damage weapons can't damage multiple models per unsaved wound. So a Lascannon will only ever kill 1 Havoc, but might take 6 wounds off of a Predator.
Nevelon wrote: Preds are also more susceptible to multi-wound weapons.
This is a huge deal and I don't understand why the OP didn't mention it. To be clear: multi-damage weapons can't damage multiple models per unsaved wound. So a Lascannon will only ever kill 1 Havoc, but might take 6 wounds off of a Predator.
Because the OP is still learning the new rules, just like everyone else, and wanted to discuss in order to understand the logic. He's challenging the logic that havocs are an auto-take, and it's worthwhile to have the discussion.
You're right, Predators can take multiple wounds and don't get much benefit from cover. Models that cause multiple wounds are probably going to be the priority targets in 8th edition, whether it's a Predator or a Havoc squad.
While Predators can shed wounds faster because they can take multiple wounds, 11 wounds is still a fair amount to get through. You're usually going to need at least 3 successful lascannon shots to take it out.
As you take wounds on a havoc unit, you lose guns. Predators keep all their guns on the table until they run out of wounds. With the addition of the Havoc launcher, you are adding the potential for d6 more wounds at 48 inches. Admittedly, they are AP0, so most things are going to have a save against them, but the added firepower is going to have some benefit.
The way I am thinking about it is, does the T7 of the Predator make enough of a difference that it might be worthwhile? For instance, against Orks, who are not going to have enough big guns to shoot up a Predator, but would have enough small arms to shoot up a Havoc squad.
I don't think it's as easy as saying Havocs are infantry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/11 14:54:12
Predators are great, speed and dakka, plus decent toughness and wounds. But expect them to be focused fire early. Shame they took away 7e formations, i really liked them, apart from how cheesy some were.
Havocs are more versatile, cheap, and less threatening imo. In low point games having 4 all in cover with missile launchers would be great. Also with split fire changing the fire phase, I'm interested in what compositions new havoc squads will have.
Again, its all up to what the map looks like, the opposite army, the points available, and the rest of the army.
It's not that predators are less susceptible to morale, they're immune to it. A single model never has to take a morale test.
It's much easier to negate this with havocs by taking 2 units of five, since by the time you're taking a meaningful morale test, most of the unit is already dead,
I think I favor the predator because of its mobility, but Havocs are definitely coming back. I'm inclined to think heavy bolter or missile launcher havocs will be the way to go.
I don't think it's as easy as saying Havocs are infantry.
That's just shorthand for saying that they have different strengths and weaknesses. Havocs can, for instance, sit on the top floor of a ruin with a commanding field of view. Things like that..
Novelist47 wrote: Predators are great, speed and dakka, plus decent toughness and wounds. But expect them to be focused fire early. Shame they took away 7e formations, i really liked them, apart from how cheesy some were.
Havocs are more versatile, cheap, and less threatening imo. In low point games having 4 all in cover with missile launchers would be great. Also with split fire changing the fire phase, I'm interested in what compositions new havoc squads will have.
Again, its all up to what the map looks like, the opposite army, the points available, and the rest of the army.
Ive been debating the use of a 10 man havoc squad with 4 lascannons. You essentialy get 6 ablative wounds on the unit, decent leadership and multi damage weapons that are going to eat a pred will just kill 1 of them at a time. Gettin a 2+ through cover will also be quite easy.
The change to wound allocation as in you can simply choose to remove a non hw model also helps this in my eyes, 8th is already shaping up to be the game of infantry.
Having read the Faction Focus articles about Chaos, I thought Havocs are the best Heavy Support option for CSM lists in 8th edition. Questioning that logic right now, thinking Predators are the better option.
Predators are basically the same loadout we have seen in previous editions, except:
- They can no take a dirge caster, dozer blade, extra armor, or demonic possession.
- They can take weapons from the combi-weapons list. This means you could have a combi-bolter, or flamer, or plasma.
Predators are power level 10. A 5 man havoc squad is power level 7, let's add 5 more models to take them to power level 10.
- Both units have the same save.
- Predator has one additional wound.
- Both units can take a combi weapon.
- The predator can take an additional heavy weapon (havoc launcher). It must take lascannons, but that's not a bad thing. D6 * 5 wounds per turn.
- The havocs can take 4 heavy weapons. While they can take AP -4 multi-meltas, the AP -3 of the lascannon is not bad and has a longer range. Either way, D6 * 4 wounds per turn.
- Predator leadership is 8, Havoc champion has leadership of 8. The Predator will be less subject to the effects of morale.
- The havocs have the benefit of additional bolter shots, which is important, but will not be used as often.
It feels like Predators are the superior option in most cases. What am I missing?
I have to agree woth Dionysodorus. The fact that 3 lascannon shots will destroy the tank but you would only lose 2 of your 4 lascannons with Havocs is important. Not to mention objectives are held by model number. Havocs having access to cover make them about as durable as the Predator when it comes to getting wounded (Havocs are wounded on a 2+ but get a 5+ save with cover vs a Lascannon). Predators also degrade as they take hits.
I played a game of 8th edition last night using 2 Predators and a Havoc squad. All heavy weapons were Lascannons.
Fighting Eldar, the only things special of which was a Wraithknight and Wraith Guard. I kept the big guns at range as much as possible throughout the game.
Quick impressions:
1) The Wraithknight was able to fall back and still shoot. Huge mistake, it's very vulnerable to lascannon shots out in the open. It was almost as expensive as the Predators and Havocs combined.
2) Perching the havocs on a building was okay, but about a third of the board was a blind spot because of other structures. My opponent was mostly able to ignore the Havocs, all they were really able to target was infantry.
3) This also meant the Havocs had to be a little closer than the Predators because of where the building was positioned. They took some shots from Warp Spiders and lost 2 models while in cover.
4) One Predator did go down after a single turn of shooting. It does matter that it's a vehicle, it took something like 20 wounds in a single turn.
5) The other Predator did better, it was reduced to half wounds by the end of the game but hung in there. Being able to move 12 inches was useful, but it did better sitting next to another Predator.
6) The havoc launchers on the Predators were useful maybe once and killed a single model. Having no AP modifier is not great.
As others have said, it's situational. I felt like the trade off between vehicles / infantry was not as important as mobility, but I could see how that would be different with less scenery.
Infantry were the MVPs, my Noise Marines killed off a lot more than all those lascannons could have. But they would not have been very effective without something to kill the Wraithknight. The one thing that the Predators may have over havocs is greater ability to get into position to support other units, since Infantry seem to matter more in this edition.
The clear and obvious answer is take both. In fact I'd go further than that. Kitting your preds and havocs out with all lascannons is asking for trouble. You're inviting massive weight of fire down on single units each turn. You also have a problem if they're assaulted - they can't defend themselves and now they can't shoot either.
I think you need to take both units and to mix weapons too. Look at the predator stats, the autocannon turret is significantly more dangerous to infantry and when you mathhammer it out it's actually more efficient than double las. It has more shots, so less chance of completely failing. It has a higher potential damage (though the chances of reaching the higher damage are much lower) and it has a higher higher average damage than double las. At an average 4 shots (33% likely, with a 66% to hit that average or higher) assuming all wound, you have 12 damage caused. Average damage for double las is going to be 7 if both connect. And you're much more likely to hit that average 7 on a 2d6 than you will the average on 2d3 so you'll see that 7 damage more often than you'll see only 4 shots from the cannon (so you're more likely to get 4 shots or more than you are to see higher than 7 damage). Double las does have a higher wound chance vs T7 and T8 but the extra shots from the cannon will compensate for that, as well as give you better anti-infantry shooting (and better shooting vs Necron shielding too).
Likewise if you kit your havocs out with 2 las and 2 HB's or AC's you get some decent anti-infantry in there too, to dissuade assaults or to add weight of fire to more distant but still dangerous infantry units. And with anti-armour and anti-infantry weaponry spread out amongst you army (and along your battle lines) you're forcing your opponent to have to split fire everything if they want to shut down your anti-tank capability. And it doesn't matter if they bring a tank-killing vehicle that takes out your tanks in turn 1 if you also have anti-tank on your infantry too.
With the way split fire works now I think overly specialising your units will result in wasted potential. I've see a few bat reps where vehicles have been left with poor target options because they have no vehicles to shoot their anti-tank guns at. Mix them up and you can always be a threat to something. If you need 8 lascannons in your army then instead of taking 2 preds or two havoc squads packed with those guns you take 2 preds and 2 havocs together and give each of them 2 lascannons and some dakka guns. your opponent can't cripple your anti-tank capability in one turn of shooting. Neither can they sneak infantry through a hole in your dakka coverage.
If you're not leveraging the split fire rule then you're missing out on one of the most significant changes in 8th ed.
Take a spearhead detachment and pretend you're Iron Warriors.
Havocs and preds for days.
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
Demantiae wrote: The clear and obvious answer is take both. In fact I'd go further than that. Kitting your preds and havocs out with all lascannons is asking for trouble. You're inviting massive weight of fire down on single units each turn. You also have a problem if they're assaulted - they can't defend themselves and now they can't shoot either.
Vehicles have attacks in close combat. They can defend themselves. Havocs do have more.
Demantiae wrote: I think you need to take both units and to mix weapons too. Look at the predator stats, the autocannon turret is significantly more dangerous to infantry and when you mathhammer it out it's actually more efficient than double las. It has more shots, so less chance of completely failing. It has a higher potential damage (though the chances of reaching the higher damage are much lower) and it has a higher higher average damage than double las. At an average 4 shots (33% likely, with a 66% to hit that average or higher) assuming all wound, you have 12 damage caused.
All good points. Yes, will totally consider autocannons in the future. Part of the point of this was to experiment.
But I really liked the Laspreds. They perfectly fit the role of 'kill big stuff and keep it away from Infantry.'
Average damage for double las is going to be 7 if both connect. And you're much more likely to hit that average 7 on a 2d6 than you will the average on 2d3 so you'll see that 7 damage more often than you'll see only 4 shots from the cannon (so you're more likely to get 4 shots or more than you are to see higher than 7 damage). Double las does have a higher wound chance vs T7 and T8 but the extra shots from the cannon will compensate for that, as well as give you better anti-infantry shooting (and better shooting vs Necron shielding too).
Likewise if you kit your havocs out with 2 las and 2 HB's or AC's you get some decent anti-infantry in there too, to dissuade assaults or to add weight of fire to more distant but still dangerous infantry units. And with anti-armour and anti-infantry weaponry spread out amongst you army (and along your battle lines) you're forcing your opponent to have to split fire everything if they want to shut down your anti-tank capability. And it doesn't matter if they bring a tank-killing vehicle that takes out your tanks in turn 1 if you also have anti-tank on your infantry too.
With the way split fire works now I think overly specialising your units will result in wasted potential. I've see a few bat reps where vehicles have been left with poor target options because they have no vehicles to shoot their anti-tank guns at. Mix them up and you can always be a threat to something. If you need 8 lascannons in your army then instead of taking 2 preds or two havoc squads packed with those guns you take 2 preds and 2 havocs together and give each of them 2 lascannons and some dakka guns. your opponent can't cripple your anti-tank capability in one turn of shooting. Neither can they sneak infantry through a hole in your dakka coverage.
If you're not leveraging the split fire rule then you're missing out on one of the most significant changes in 8th ed.
It came into play with my 2 squads of Noise Marines, who were splitting fire between Wraith Guard and Warp Spiders. Definitely a different mechanic from previous editions, felt like there were no wasted shots. I had 2 squads of Raptors on the board as well, who were both carrying melta guns. I felt like they would have been better off with a melta and a flamer in each squad.
The targeting of the Pred first turn is also a function of what else you have in your list. If you give the opponent other things to worry about it'll last longer. Heldrakes are good for that.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
techsoldaten wrote: Vehicles have attacks in close combat. They can defend themselves. Havocs do have more.
They do, but not very many, and certainly not effective. Anything reaching them in CC (in the early turns at least) is going to be pretty handy in CC, and likely designed for the job of pinning down and possibly killing them. These are gonna be units coming in from reserve or units with high movement values. Having some anti-infantry weapon in there gives you a chance in overwatch as well as the opportunity to shoot them before they arrive if you manoeuvre well. You could also use cultists or something else as bubble wrap if you want but then you're paying an extra 50 points for that option. I still think mixing weapons is the better choice (even with the bubble wrap). You don't want you predator sat on one flank firing 4 lascannons at infantry because the tanks are all dead.
A combined arms approach will definitely pay off this edition, so long as you have enough lascannons in your list each of them should have enough threat range and LoS to be able to focus fire on whatever you need dead that turn, without sacrificing infantry shooting doing so.
Here's a scenario for a quad-las pred - a DE ravager or two lances it to death turn 1 before you get a chance to fire (a very real possibility now with the power of dark lances). Where's your anti-tank shooting gonna come from now? If you take two of those preds the DE can easily have enough firepower to take out both in an alpha strike. Watch Tabletop Tactics latest DE bat rep to see how much damage they can cause first turn... As chaos you can't afford to be hit like that, you need to spread those guns around so you can't be crippled by an alpha like that.
However there is something to be said for forcing your opponent to prioritise what you want them too. If you want to use quad-las preds as bullet sponges then you can build around that. Or you can use something like the helldrake to absorb bullets for them instead. Helldrakes are brilliant now at drawing fire and annoying the crap out of people (they can constantly tie up units in CC stopping your opponents best guns from ever firing). Each player will have to find their own sweet spot for how to build their list, but for me it's most definitely spreading weapons out across the whole army. But I'm playing Alpha Legion this ed so I expect every unit to be able to do everything I need on the table.
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
4k 
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