Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Because I just played a match where 20 Tankbustas, 4 squigs, 2 Trukks (Big Shootas) and a Gorknaut barely killed one rhino on turn 1; and that was only because the squig did 5 damage by himself (the others missed or didn't wound). The opponent still had four more tying up movement/jumping lanes, and they don't go down to any sort of normal infantry/anti-infantry weaponry.

After that, the 20 Tankbustas could barely put 3 wounds on a rhino - the Gorkanaut rolled 11 shots in two turns (6+5 (rerolled a 1 and got another 1 lol), and did 1 damage to a rhino with all his guns. I get that he shouldn't be shooting tanks, but it's what he could get to in the match.

Meanwhile, a couple squads of Devastators with missiles melted everything they looked at; my Gorkanaut survived to turn 3, but that's only because the enemy rolled super poorly for wounding (and I got a couple KFF saves).

I'll put up a batrep tonight or tomorrow, but in the meantime - when 20 Tankbustas are considered lucky if they can even scratch a Rhino, what are you to do vs any sort of armored vehicles on the opposing side?

Regular Ork Boyz can quite easily cripple or even kill most vehicles with a 3+ or worse in melee, simply by drowning them in hits. Add a klaw for extra punch and you're set.

As for your example, it seems more like you had bad luck than anything else. 20 Tankbustas on average hit 6,67 times, wound 4,44 times then 2,96 wounds pass the Rhinos save, and turns into ~8.89 wounds due to Damage 3.

@MinscS2: Fair enough, I was probably a bit more unlucky than anything else -

But what you're saying is that on average, 370 points ((before 180pts of Trukks) and 2-3 Elite slots) of our best dedicated Anti-Tank unit can't kill a 100 point dedicated transport (S6, W10, Sv3+);

Does that sound right? That's pretty much the weakest (minus Save stat) low end vehicle out there, and we can't even 1 round it on average (need 4 wounds since 9+3>10). Follow that up with 4+ more dedicated transports, heavy tanks, etc;

Yeah, I'm super salty right now I'll admit - but on average, we're struggling to take down things that aren't even battle tanks. What happens when a real battle tank, or even more realistically, a super heavy vehicle, shows up?

 MinscS2 wrote:
Regular Ork Boyz can quite easily cripple or even kill most vehicles with a 3+ or worse in melee, simply by drowning them in hits. Add a klaw for extra punch and you're set.

As for your example, it seems more like you had bad luck than anything else. 20 Tankbustas on average hit 6,67 times, wound 4,44 times then 2,96 wounds pass the Rhinos save, and turns into ~8.89 wounds due to Damage 3.

You forgot that tankbustas reroll misses vs vehicles. So that's 11.11, a rhino is toughness 7- So 7.41 wounds, ap -3 makes a 3+ a 6+. So 6.18 hits or 18.53 wounds equals a dead rhino. It gets even significantly better with a tankbusta bomb or squigs added. That's almost 2 dead rhinos.

All vehicles are tougher even rhinos are mini battle tanks since even a leman Russ is toughness 8 3+ save with lime 2 more wounds. But ya orks are limited vs vehicles .

gungo wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
Regular Ork Boyz can quite easily cripple or even kill most vehicles with a 3+ or worse in melee, simply by drowning them in hits. Add a klaw for extra punch and you're set.

As for your example, it seems more like you had bad luck than anything else. 20 Tankbustas on average hit 6,67 times, wound 4,44 times then 2,96 wounds pass the Rhinos save, and turns into ~8.89 wounds due to Damage 3.

You forgot that tankbustas reroll misses vs vehicles. So that's 11.11, a rhino is toughness 7- So 7.41 wounds, ap -3 makes a 3+ a 6+. So 6.18 hits or 18.53 wounds equals a dead rhino. It gets even significantly better with a tankbusta bomb or squigs added. That's almost 2 dead rhinos.

All vehicles are tougher even rhinos are mini battle tanks since even a leman Russ is toughness 8 3+ save with lime 2 more wounds. But ya orks are limited vs vehicles .

Didn't know they had rerolls actually, but yeah, that just makes them even better.
Tankbusta rokkits is only AP-2 though, not AP-3.

P.klaw, killsaws, tankbustas (especially with bomb squigs which hit on 2s and cause D6 wounds), lootas and mek gunz, probably the SAG and a unit of nobz with big choppas too. These are all decent anti tank. We don't have a weapon that can vaporize a vehicles in a moment though, that's why we should have a lot of units that can cause damage, not only a few ones buffed like the nauts (which for me are only bullet magnets) or several mobs of 30 boyz.

Everyone is in the same boat though. A unit of Devastators with 4 Lascannons most likely also fails to kill a Rhino.
In the games I have played/watched so far, it was rare that a vehicle died in 1 round of shooting.

But with D6 damage on most anti-tank weapons it can be really swingy. I really wouldn't do an all tank army and think that I would win most games.

 Blackie wrote:
We don't have a weapon that can vaporize a vehicles in a moment though.

No one has though, Unless you have a unit like Fire Dragons that brings 10 melta you'll be shooting vehicles a lot now. And even those are almost as expensive as a Naut, while not having more range at all.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
We don't have a weapon that can vaporize a vehicles in a moment though.

No one has though, Unless you have a unit like Fire Dragons that brings 10 melta you'll be shooting vehicles a lot now. And even those are almost as expensive as a Naut, while not having more range at all.

I agree, that's why I think trukks/BWs rush is the way to go with orks in 8th edition, unless you field 90 stormboyz + zagstruk. Vehicles are tough to wreck and whoever goes into assault is able to strike first. MSU can be the key to deal with vehicles, of course we can't field as many MSU as in 7th edition but a fast choppy army with some ranged ant-tank should deal quite well against enemies' vehicles. A BW with 5-6 nobz equipped with big choppas and 10 tankbustas plus 4 bomb squigs can overkill a vehicle for example. PKs and a waaagh banner can be even more deadly but the points costs are going to rise terribly.

I kind of wish the power klaw straight up did 3 damage to compensate it being more expensive than both the power fist and thunder hammer, but it is what it is. Still thing its a nice "cave your opponent's face in" weapon. I heard someone saying the did point costs to make the more internally consistent rather than compared to other factions.

last week 27 boys and nob w/ pk charged an uninjured dred, it just dissolved. then the next turn they hit a predator with similar results. note they were near ghaz for +1 attack and were over 20 both times so 5 attack each. nob had base 3 plus 1 for ghaz plus 1 for over 20 so 5 pk hitting on 4+

I've played a couple games so far and vehicles can be a proble for us. Last game an opponent brought 6 basilisks in a 1000 pt game and all my powerklaws never seemed to do anything meaningful at all. Just 3 attacks and hitting on 4-s is a bummer when you need to carve through 11 t6 wounds. I didn't manage to kill anything. Just wounded a couple.

We really need some dedicated anti-tank. Regular boyz with pk nobz won't do the at job unless you're very lucky with your rolls. Also, i'm quite disappointed with meganobz. They're so expensive and the damage output is pretty bad. Previously all my antitank was 15 meganobz. And they were doing great in 7-th. But now you statistically need 6 power klaw meganobz to kill a rhino. That's 324 pts + a transport. That's nuts! 400+ pts to down one freaking rhino. To the shelf you go, my poor meganobz that have seen around 3 months of play.

Anywayz. Back to the problem solving. What might work now is the combination of dedicated AT shooting (tankbustas, badrukk, probably mek gunz but i'm on the fence with them after a couple games) + pk or killsaw characters like bosses or Ghaz. Or alternatively, walkers. Dreads, meka dreads, kanz and naughts should be quite good at dealing with vehicles in mellee. But i doubt that pure shooting is really useful for orks. It might be a good idea to forego it entirely and just focus on fast or tough mellee. Just cause it doesn't seem to be worth the price compared to what other factions get.

fe40k wrote:

Does that sound right? That's pretty much the weakest (minus Save stat) low end vehicle out there,

They're far from the weakest low-end vehicle (that would be Sentinels, DE transports, Genestealer Cult vehicles, Ork vehicles, Landspeeders).

I don't think they even are a low-end vehicle. They're pretty resilient in 8th. Hence they cost 100 rather than 35 points as before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
We don't have a weapon that can vaporize a vehicles in a moment though

No one does. Those weapons have been removed from the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's a shift in game design from offense-centered.

Somewhat.

Some weapons can still total a vehicle in one round of shooting. They are just way rarer

 koooaei wrote:
I've played a couple games so far and vehicles can be a proble for us. Last game an opponent brought 6 basilisks in a 1000 pt game and all my powerklaws never seemed to do anything meaningful at all. Just 3 attacks and hitting on 4-s is a bummer when you need to carve through 11 t6 wounds. I didn't manage to kill anything. Just wounded a couple.

We really need some dedicated anti-tank. Regular boyz with pk nobz won't do the at job unless you're very lucky with your rolls. Also, i'm quite disappointed with meganobz. They're so expensive and the damage output is pretty bad. Previously all my antitank was 15 meganobz. And they were doing great in 7-th. But now you statistically need 6 power klaw meganobz to kill a rhino. That's 324 pts + a transport. That's nuts! 400+ pts to down one freaking rhino. To the shelf you go, my poor meganobz that have seen around 3 months of play.

Anywayz. Back to the problem solving. What might work now is the combination of dedicated AT shooting (tankbustas, badrukk, probably mek gunz but i'm on the fence with them after a couple games) + pk or killsaw characters like bosses or Ghaz. Or alternatively, walkers. Dreads, meka dreads, kanz and naughts should be quite good at dealing with vehicles in mellee. But i doubt that pure shooting is really useful for orks. It might be a good idea to forego it entirely and just focus on fast or tough mellee. Just cause it doesn't seem to be worth the price compared to what other factions get.

So... what about nob bikers? They are fast enough to reach whatever they want and a mix of PKs and big choppas might put a dent into backfield artillery. They can also fire both their dakka gunz and both modes of a combi-skorcha at once, which looks impressive on paper, with three wounds a pain boy might also have a decent chance to keep them alive. I think I'm going give my 5th ed nob bikers another spin.

Bring power klaws.

Rhinos and razors are very durable for the points. Way better than trukks to transport something mellee-oriented.

Klaws no longer one-shot tanks and you actually need 3x the rhino points in klaw nobz to kill one. So, it's not really viable. Biker nobz don't seem to be viable point-for-point either. They end up being even more expensive than meganobz - and those are pretty bad at destroying vehicles. Also, keep in mind that they lost their cover save and 3 t5 4+ wounds are not what they used to be.

Interestingly enough, a single pk meganob costs 54 pts and deals 1.67 wounds to a rhino with a klaw and 0.15 with a tl-shoota. 9 choppaboyz (54 pts) deal 2 wounds to a rhino with choppas and 0.37 with sluggas. Sure, boyz are less durable than meganobz vs anti-infantry guns but are way tougher point-for-point vs heavier weapons. They also get a boss nob upgrade for free and get a bonus attack when 20+ are still alive.

What about dred and kan mobs?

 Looky Likey wrote:
What about dred and kan mobs?

Oh, they are not bad. It's hard to tell what's better - more attacks hitting on 5-s or fewer attacks hiting on 3-s. But they can both do a decent job at destroying vehicles.

We've finished a game vs ig today - i'll post a short batrep and it might give a clue at how to deal with vehicle spam. It basically comes down to having suffecient numbers and speed. You can't one-shot vehicles but you can mitigate their impact and eventually wittle them down. Although, overwatch is a bummer. Especially with something like a basilisk.

I've found boyz are a bit lackluster v. vehicles anymore, actually. Hard to drill through good saves.

Klaws still do a good job, though. Rokkits are good, lootas do 2 damage now, and you can always reroll their shots with a command reroll.

But, klaws do the trick, just like always. A warboss and 3 meganobz did 17 wounds on a knight, for example.

Taking out vehicle spam is a little tricky, I suppose, but if the enemy is paying for a bunch of rhinos, they're not doing themselves any favors, as rhinos (like all vehicles) are far from cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
I kind of wish the power klaw straight up did 3 damage to compensate it being more expensive than both the power fist and thunder hammer, but it is what it is. Still thing its a nice "cave your opponent's face in" weapon. I heard someone saying the did point costs to make the more internally consistent rather than compared to other factions.

I think the reason klaws are more expensive than fists is because almost everything that can take them are str5. I mean, it seems fair that a nob's str 10 klaw is more expensive than a marine's str 8 fist.

I'm less scared of rhinos than 100pt twin ass cannon razorbacks. Guess I'll have to grab some turrets and test them out against us.

5 DoubleSaw MANZ with a Waagh Banner will kill a Landraider on the charge, what's to complain about? I don't think Id go with a different loadout there (although I might I has already assembled MANZ).

A mob of 20 boyz on the charge should do a little over 4 wounds too, not counting Nobz or any buffs (or shoting prior to the charge). Add a banner and Klaw Nob and the output should be around 7 wounds on average. That's not bad either.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/728648.page#9427892

here's the batrep as promised.

Ragnar69 wrote:
Everyone is in the same boat though. A unit of Devastators with 4 Lascannons most likely also fails to kill a Rhino.
In the games I have played/watched so far, it was rare that a vehicle died in 1 round of shooting.

But with D6 damage on most anti-tank weapons it can be really swingy. I really wouldn't do an all tank army and think that I would win most games.

4 Devs with Lascannons = 3 Hits (Cherub/signum) so 4, wounding on 3s means 3 Wounds on average. D6 damage each so average 10.5 wounds a turn. Thats saying that the Rhino doesn't save any with his 6+ save

But thats rolling statistically.


Total cost 170pts

For 170pts you can get 10 Tank Bustas.

10 Tank Bustas have 1/2 the range to start with and 6+ saves so they will need a transport regardless, so tack on another 70-160pts (Trukk/wagon) But that aside, 10 bustas will hit about 3 times with their first batch of shots, and then with rerolls they will get another 2 (on average) so 5 total hits. 5 hits wounding on 3s = 3-4 Wounds and against a 5+ save lets say 3 go through, grand total 9 wounds.

Yeah; the range is significantly longer, the marines are much more survivable, and they realistically do more damage, more reliably. Tankbustas die to any sort of fire, whereas Marines at least have a 3+ save. Even if the Marines move, they hit pretty much as accurately as an Ork Tankbusta (50% vs ~55%); and it's easier to get a cover save for 2+ Terminator armor.

3 damage

vs

33% 1-2 damage
17% Same damage (3)
50% 4-6 damage ; which is more than a Tankbusta

Overall 67% odds that they do the same damage, or anywhere up to double. Not a small thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
5 DoubleSaw MANZ with a Waagh Banner will kill a Landraider on the charge, what's to complain about? I don't think Id go with a different loadout there (although I might I has already assembled MANZ).

A mob of 20 boyz on the charge should do a little over 4 wounds too, not counting Nobz or any buffs (or shoting prior to the charge). Add a banner and Klaw Nob and the output should be around 7 wounds on average. That's not bad either.

484 points for DoubleSaw MANZ and Waaagh Banner; not sure what a Landraider costs, but we're not even factoring in the transport you need to make sure they can make it to the Landraider - which is ~84 points if you take a cheapo trukk; or ~200ish if you take a Battlewagon.

After you kill that Landraider, you're moving 4" a turn - you'll be super hard pressed to realistically catch anything; and that's not even counting the fact that without an invulnerable save, they die to anything that pierces their armor.

fe40k wrote:
Yeah; the range is significantly longer, the marines are much more survivable, and they realistically do more damage, more reliably. Tankbustas die to any sort of fire, whereas Marines at least have a 3+ save. Even if the Marines move, they hit pretty much as accurately as an Ork Tankbusta (50% vs ~55%); and it's easier to get a cover save for 2+ Terminator armor.

3 damage

vs

33% 1-2 damage
17% Same damage (3)
50% 4-6 damage ; which is more than a Tankbusta

Overall 67% odds that they do the same damage, or anywhere up to double. Not a small thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
5 DoubleSaw MANZ with a Waagh Banner will kill a Landraider on the charge, what's to complain about? I don't think Id go with a different loadout there (although I might I has already assembled MANZ).

A mob of 20 boyz on the charge should do a little over 4 wounds too, not counting Nobz or any buffs (or shoting prior to the charge). Add a banner and Klaw Nob and the output should be around 7 wounds on average. That's not bad either.

484 points for DoubleSaw MANZ and Waaagh Banner; not sure what a Landraider costs, but we're not even factoring in the transport you need to make sure they can make it to the Landraider - which is ~84 points if you take a cheapo trukk; or ~200ish if you take a Battlewagon.

After you kill that Landraider, you're moving 4" a turn - you'll be super hard pressed to realistically catch anything; and that's not even counting the fact that without an invulnerable save, they die to anything that pierces their armor.

I think LandRaiders with standard 4 lascannons and 2 heavy bolters cost like 350ptsish I cant remember. But the point is well made, you are going to be putting a lot of points into killing a vehicle and once that unit is out in the open they tend to be a bit squishy, not as bad as last edition but still.