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It would seem with the opening back up of alpha assault, that we will go back to the days where assault armies are entirely loaded into alpha strike and the bare minimum is fielded, thus circumventing the need for the movement phase.

(this complaint was fairly loud and in part why it was removed from the game a few editions ago, and here it is back).

Having played during the days of alpha strike and owning an alpha strike army back then, and having borne witness to the popularity of sigmarine alpha strike armies, are we looking at a ton of all deep strike assault armies coming back, removing the need for positioning and maneuver?

I doubt it.

1. There's a matched play restriction on how many units can start out in reserves in matched play.

2. You have to roll at least a 9 for the vast majority of units that you'd want to charge with from deepstrike, and even higher if you are charging into a crater, a forest, etc.

That said, rhino rush is definitely back...on steroids!

Well in matched play you can only take half your army points in deep strike so its meh. I just finished a game a hour ago and it felt way better with this type of deployment.

You roll 8 to get in now that's only one more than the average result on 2d6, no longer need to get in base contact just within one inch.

zalak wrote:
Well in matched play you can only take half your army points in deep strike so its meh. I just finished a game a hour ago and it felt way better with this type of deployment.

Half of the units, not points.

DS is now much easier to deny with careful positioning, because a 17" gap between two units isn't sufficient to drop anymore (in the past, that would have been a decent spot to land multiple drop pods).
Flamers are never in range after a DS, and with just a tiny bit of wrapping you can also deny melta range on your vehicles.


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hobojebus wrote:
You roll 8 to get in now that's only one more than the average result on 2d6, no longer need to get in base contact just within one inch.

You need to DS more than 9" away, so you need to roll 9+ to move within 1" of your target.

hobojebus wrote:
You roll 8 to get in now that's only one more than the average result on 2d6, no longer need to get in base contact just within one inch.

You deploy more than 9" away. So you need a 9. That's about 28%; goes up to 52% I think with a single re-roll.

First turn assault heavy armies are going to be insanely good.

hobojebus wrote:
You roll 8 to get in now that's only one more than the average result on 2d6, no longer need to get in base contact just within one inch.

DS is OVER 9 inches away. Over 9 inches minus 1 inch equals over 8 inches. There is no way to roll 8.something with the dice and rolling 8 leaves the unit over 1 inch away resulting in a failed charge. A 9 or more needs to be rolled.

Ninja clan got me.

zerosignal wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
You roll 8 to get in now that's only one more than the average result on 2d6, no longer need to get in base contact just within one inch.

You deploy more than 9" away. So you need a 9. That's about 28%; goes up to 52% I think with a single re-roll.

First turn assault heavy armies are going to be insanely good.

48% with a reroll. Death Company with Lemartes can get that but you are paying plenty of points and there is still a 52% chance you will be left hanging in the breeze. Let's say you run 3x5 man DC and Lemartes, that is nearly 400 points before upgrades and you will need to roll above average to get more than one into assault. To make matters worse, if the DC make the charge and Lemartes himself does not, they will have charged out of his 6" reroll bubble meaning they won't hit nearly as hard.

So the short answer it yes, you can launch Turn 1 assaults but it is likely to be pretty piecemeal. Maybe once in a while you roll hot and most of your units make their charges but more often than not the majority will be left kicking their heels in front of the enemy guns.

Rather than trying to pull it off, you will probably be better running a big DC with Lemartes and jumping up the centre. Have a Libby Dread behind to cast Shield of Sanguinius on them for a 4++ save and you have a reasonably fast and durable unit that has a charge range of 24+2D6" on turn 2.

Alpha strike deepstrikers fall flat on the face the moment they meet bauble-wrap.

 koooaei wrote:
Alpha strike deepstrikers fall flat on the face the moment they meet bauble-wrap.

100% agree. Bubble wrap is so strong and important for shooty armies now.

I'm wracking my brain on how to over come it myself with an Alpha Strike Nid list using triple Trygon primes joined by mass Hormagaunts

 Zande4 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Alpha strike deepstrikers fall flat on the face the moment they meet bauble-wrap.

100% agree. Bubble wrap is so strong and important for shooty armies now.

I'm wracking my brain on how to over come it myself with an Alpha Strike Nid list using triple Trygon primes joined by mass Hormagaunts

Waves. Bring a Trygon on each turn with Hormagaunts to assault in the same general area and you should eventually be able to break through, especially if the rest of the army is applying pressure elswhere.

Oh well. I can't like everything about an edition lol.

RIP Manueuver and Movement.

It just seems that every assault person I know is going full on alpha strike, so if it wasn't that good, I wouldn't expect to see 100% of the people I know and a good chunk I read online to be using it fully.

 Imateria wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Alpha strike deepstrikers fall flat on the face the moment they meet bauble-wrap.

100% agree. Bubble wrap is so strong and important for shooty armies now.

I'm wracking my brain on how to over come it myself with an Alpha Strike Nid list using triple Trygon primes joined by mass Hormagaunts

Waves. Bring a Trygon on each turn with Hormagaunts to assault in the same general area and you should eventually be able to break through, especially if the rest of the army is applying pressure elswhere.

Attacking in waves in a fixed points game is otherwise known as attacking piecemeal, only part of your army vs the whole of theirs. Sure there's benefits in holding back a unit occasionally but not to the extent they're saying.


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 koooaei wrote:
Alpha strike deepstrikers fall flat on the face the moment they meet bauble-wrap.

Bubble wrap and units that scout/infiltrate/setup differently, sending that 9" miles away from the main force.


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 auticus wrote:
Oh well. I can't like everything about an edition lol.

RIP Manueuver and Movement.

It just seems that every assault person I know is going full on alpha strike, so if it wasn't that good, I wouldn't expect to see 100% of the people I know and a good chunk I read online to be using it fully.

And vs any competent IG force they'll be able to charge say 2 Scout Sentinels and some Ratlings. Then be stood with their dicks in their hands in front of a vast volume of fire.

Deep Strike will be very handy vs some lists. Others, not so much. A balanced force (shock!) will likely be move effective over a set of games.

We shall see. Based on AOS Stormcast being able to do it and most if not all stormcast players I've played doing full alpha strike all the time, and based on the past when deep strike / reserve assault was a thing and min/maxed, I'm expecting the same here.

Its just vastly easier to use.

 auticus wrote:
We shall see. Based on AOS Stormcast being able to do it and most if not all stormcast players I've played doing full alpha strike all the time, and based on the past when deep strike / reserve assault was a thing and min/maxed, I'm expecting the same here.

Its just vastly easier to use.

Stormcast typically wanted to be in melee with the exception of their bowmen however, with the opposite for various Space Marine stuff.

I really don't see mass alpha as a thing from deepstrike. Having lots of chances to roll 9" on 2 dice and if you fail you get charged everywhere sounds terrible.

Well, nobody will be going full alpha strike, since only half the units can in any army.

lol thats true. Half the units I mean.

But we all know what that means =P

Three units of min garbage troops. Then three units of super maxed out units alpha striking lol.

Seems to me like it will be part of a more balanced attack for assault armies. Throw in some deepstriking units to harass and draw fire away from your other slower threats. Bubble wrap will hurt this as a whole army tactic once people adjust to it. When you first read about the turn 1 assault you get excited and want to go whole hog, but eating a couple cheap units and getting shot to death will be what happens in many cases. Using AOS as an example seems like a bad idea, shooting in that game is not near as deadly as it is in 40k. I think this would be a bigger issue if you could not "fall back" (really you can move any direction you want) from combat, this means that whether you kill that bubble or not you are getting shot on their turn if they want you to. Or if they have durable bubble wrap maybe they just keep you tied up and shoot other things.

I will say that 8th is slowly turning me off. I was quite excited about it, but every single 8th ed. battle report (watched maybe 15-20) I've seen has been a turn 1 or maaaaybe turn 2 huge melee scrum, regardless of any tactics/strategy/movement/shooting. That's tremendously boring to me. Stat-wise I think the game is in good shape.

My 2nd ed. buddies and I are already considering simply adopting 2E base rules (well, our modified version) and using the new stats (allowing non 2nd ed. armies to join the fun, essentially).

 auticus wrote:
It would seem with the opening back up of alpha assault, that we will go back to the days where assault armies are entirely loaded into alpha strike and the bare minimum is fielded, thus circumventing the need for the movement phase.

(this complaint was fairly loud and in part why it was removed from the game a few editions ago, and here it is back).

Having played during the days of alpha strike and owning an alpha strike army back then, and having borne witness to the popularity of sigmarine alpha strike armies, are we looking at a ton of all deep strike assault armies coming back, removing the need for positioning and maneuver?

If you think that removes that need, you haven't played against enough alpha strike armies.

 auticus wrote:
lol thats true. Half the units I mean.

But we all know what that means =P

Three units of min garbage troops. Then three units of super maxed out units alpha striking lol.

What super maxed out unit is worth deepstriking to kill a small scout squad? Which ones can reliable make that charge? Which ones of those can deepstrike? and can then survive tons of shooting from the enemy including multiple overwatch shots.


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 Elbows wrote:
I will say that 8th is slowly turning me off. I was quite excited about it, but every single 8th ed. battle report (watched maybe 15-20) I've seen has been a turn 1 or maaaaybe turn 2 huge melee scrum, regardless of any tactics/strategy/movement/shooting. That's tremendously boring to me. Stat-wise I think the game is in good shape.

My 2nd ed. buddies and I are already considering simply adopting 2E base rules (well, our modified version) and using the new stats (allowing non 2nd ed. armies to join the fun, essentially).

I wonder how much of that is mission based. Would Maelstrom missions cause this to happen less often?

I play one of the heaviest alpha strike armies (PAGK in Stormravens) and i will tell you now. With the ability to fall back, you can completely control where I am standing and what you can shoot at me with. Don't put your expensive units in the front rank and you will be able to counter me.

You can take an 8pt acolyte for every unit you want to start in reserve as well.

so 80pts of acolytes on the table gets you 10 units in reserve.

The cost of drop pods is going to have a huge effect on how people are playing marines.

I'm more concerned about gun lines than alpha strike tbh

Remember than ANY unit can easily get a re-roll from command points. I've used it almost every game for any deep striking units, and it makes a tremendous difference.

If AoS is any indication (and it should be since the basic rules are nearly identical), alpha strike armies are going to be a thing for sure. Unlike AoS, those units in 40K also all have guns, so even if you dont get a charge you're still shooting at full effect the turn you come in and in rapid fire range.

The real difference between AoS and 40K that ive seen so far are transports, which practically every force has access to. In the current edition rushing units up the field in rhinos/whatever on turn 1 then unleashing on turn 2 seems to be a thing as well. I guess we'll see which one makes more sense. I suspect it will depend on the forces. For Space Marines, who have access to many squads with both great shooting and others specialized in close combat, I think both builds are viable so far.

 Elbows wrote:
I will say that 8th is slowly turning me off. I was quite excited about it, but every single 8th ed. battle report (watched maybe 15-20) I've seen has been a turn 1 or maaaaybe turn 2 huge melee scrum, regardless of any tactics/strategy/movement/shooting. That's tremendously boring to me. Stat-wise I think the game is in good shape.

This is what I was referring to when I say "RIP Movement Phase".

I've only played a few games of 8th but I really haven't felt this way.

I'm playing an Eldar army that wants to get in close and shoot, with only the Yncarne as a big CC threat. The other day I played against a mostly-CC oriented Tyranid army, which included a Mawloc, a Trygon, 2 flying Tyrants, and Genestealers. I was moving all over the place. I was blocking routes with flyers, falling back into transports and then moving the transports out of threat range themselves, and surrounding dangerous units with almost-dead squads to waste their next turn. I recently added a 21 point Razorwing unit to my list as a bit of first turn deep strike defense.

Taffy17 wrote:
You can take an 8pt acolyte for every unit you want to start in reserve as well.

so 80pts of acolytes on the table gets you 10 units in reserve.

The cost of drop pods is going to have a huge effect on how people are playing marines.

I'm more concerned about gun lines than alpha strike tbh

Hope all those acolytes don't die and lose you the game.


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dosiere wrote:
Remember than ANY unit can easily get a re-roll from command points. I've used it almost every game for any deep striking units, and it makes a tremendous difference.

If AoS is any indication (and it should be since the basic rules are nearly identical), alpha strike armies are going to be a thing for sure. Unlike AoS, those units in 40K also all have guns, so even if you dont get a charge you're still shooting at full effect the turn you come in and in rapid fire range.

The real difference between AoS and 40K that ive seen so far are transports, which practically every force has access to. In the current edition rushing units up the field in rhinos/whatever on turn 1 then unleashing on turn 2 seems to be a thing as well. I guess we'll see which one makes more sense. I suspect it will depend on the forces. For Space Marines, who have access to many squads with both great shooting and others specialized in close combat, I think both builds are viable so far.

ONE unit can get a re-roll from command points. You can only re-roll once per phase, so if you are deepstriking a ton of units you get 1 re-roll for charge unless you have another method of getting that re-roll.

Not all assault units have guns, so some won't be shooting. Also unless you shoot a unit other than the one you are closest to you just might shoot yourself out of a charge.

Transports are a big deal, and could also be used to stop assault units. If you charge my bubble wrap, then they retreat, and I shoot you then charge you with a Rhino, now you are stuck trying to beat on a fairly durable unit (assuming it can survive 1 round of combat).


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 auticus wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I will say that 8th is slowly turning me off. I was quite excited about it, but every single 8th ed. battle report (watched maybe 15-20) I've seen has been a turn 1 or maaaaybe turn 2 huge melee scrum, regardless of any tactics/strategy/movement/shooting. That's tremendously boring to me. Stat-wise I think the game is in good shape.

This is what I was referring to when I say "RIP Movement Phase".

Isn't there some tactics, strategy, movement involved with avoiding the assault scrum.

Breng77 wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
You can take an 8pt acolyte for every unit you want to start in reserve as well.

so 80pts of acolytes on the table gets you 10 units in reserve.

The cost of drop pods is going to have a huge effect on how people are playing marines.

I'm more concerned about gun lines than alpha strike tbh

Hope all those acolytes don't die and lose you the game.

My first thought was that you should be able to hide at least ONE of those models well enough that nothing can shoot it, but your opponent can deep strike on turn 1 too. It may very well be possible to wipe out all ten in a single turn, although I think it's still unlikely.

Well i'd like to think i'm not cheap enough to do that. but it's not hard to hide them in LOS obscuring cover,

if you're going first its not an issue either and if not put them on your board edge out of sight, survive one turn