Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Hemlock has better saves and abilities, but the Voidraven has better weapons and is cheaper, wich one do you prefer?

1 hemlock, if you want more flyers raven is good. reason is conceal.

are the points similar?

Hemlock 211
Voidraven 169 with either main weapon plus 25 for the missils.

Average of 4 autohit shots with Str 10 and screw your armor save with some extra bonuses will most likely outstrip the Voidraven in terms of antitank. The Voidraven is maybe a bit more versatile?

The Hemlock really has pretty unrivaled firepower, including Smite. It's real disadvantage is its short range, which can be a big issue in some cases. The Hemlock is probably generally more useful but there are cases -- against DE Blaster spam, for example -- where you really want to be shooting from farther away.

The Voidraven's bomb is sometimes fantastic and sometimes only okay. It expects to kill more than 100 points of Necron Immortals in a Movement phase. But in many cases it will only be worth maybe 2 uses of the Hemock's Smite.

Hemlock has vector dancer which is a big deal IMO

 schadenfreude wrote:
Hemlock has vector dancer which is a big deal IMO

With 360 degree line of sight it's worth considerably less than it was in 7th. The Voidraven can just start in one corner and fly a squar around the table and never have to worry about being destroyed due to placement problems or flying too far, in fact I think Vector Dancer (or WIngs of Khaine as it is now) is almost worthless because you never have to line up for shots.

Wings of Khaine is pretty useful for both the Hemlock and the Hunter, I find. The Hunter can just sort of swing back and forth along one side of the board, keeping it away from 24" and many 36" guns. Since the Hemlock needs to get right up into the enemy's face, it can be awkward to keep it lined up for a shot on the second turn without the extra pivot. It especially helps to make sure you can get good Smite targets.

The hemlock just has too many little buffs over the Void Raven. And the VR isn't all that much cheapers.

Aside from weapons, the Hemlock has:
-A better armour save + Spirit Stones (although VR has 5++)
-Smite or Conceal (total -2 to hit the Hemlock is amazing)
-A -1 Ld for enemies in 12"
-Weapons that auto-hit (seriously, why does its BS decrease?)
-A second 90 degree turn. not as important in 8E as in 7E, but it makes a difference in enough situations.

Another thing to consider are Ravagers, which are a bit cheap than VRs with about the same anti-tank output

-

I would lean towards the Voidraven with missiles.

You have to get too close for the Hemlock which means you'll be in range of much more retaliation (and auto hitting flamers) and probably within deny range of any of their psykers.

 Galef wrote:
The hemlock just has too many little buffs over the Void Raven. And the VR isn't all that much cheapers.

Aside from weapons, the Hemlock has:
-A better armour save + Spirit Stones (although VR has 5++)
-Smite or Conceal (total -2 to hit the Hemlock is amazing)
-A -1 Ld for enemies in 12"
-Weapons that auto-hit (seriously, why does its BS decrease?)
-A second 90 degree turn. not as important in 8E as in 7E, but it makes a difference in enough situations.

Another thing to consider are Ravagers, which are a bit cheap than VRs with about the same anti-tank output

-

Conceal can only be cast on Infantry and Bikes, so you can never cast it on the Hemlock. I think I'm leaning towards the Voidraven, whilst it's shooting is nowhere near as reliable, it's total damage output is considerably higher.

 Imateria wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The hemlock just has too many little buffs over the Void Raven. And the VR isn't all that much cheapers.

Aside from weapons, the Hemlock has:
-A better armour save + Spirit Stones (although VR has 5++)
-Smite or Conceal (total -2 to hit the Hemlock is amazing)
-A -1 Ld for enemies in 12"
-Weapons that auto-hit (seriously, why does its BS decrease?)
-A second 90 degree turn. not as important in 8E as in 7E, but it makes a difference in enough situations.

Another thing to consider are Ravagers, which are a bit cheap than VRs with about the same anti-tank output

-

Conceal can only be cast on Infantry and Bikes, so you can never cast it on the Hemlock. I think I'm leaning towards the Voidraven, whilst it's shooting is nowhere near as reliable, it's total damage output is considerably higher.

Conceal affects both the psyker and nearby infantry/bikes. So the Hemlock can benefit from it if it's the one casting it.

 Imateria wrote:

Conceal can only be cast on Infantry and Bikes, so you can never cast it on the Hemlock. I think I'm leaning towards the Voidraven, whilst it's shooting is nowhere near as reliable, it's total damage output is considerably higher.

A Hemlock which casts Conceal definitely gains the benefit of the -1 to hit. Compare the wording of Conceal to Enhance. Now, with multiple Hemlocks Conceal is a little awkward because if only one of them fails its psychic test then that's the one that the enemy will shoot, but Conceal/Reveal is probably still the best power choice for them unless you're up against an all-melee army where Enhance/Drain makes more sense.

If by "total damage output" you're talking about the Voidraven's bomb, then, yes, it can expect to do a lot more damage in a turn than the Hemlock given the right targets, though it can only do this for one turn. With guns alone, the Hemlock expects to do more damage to any heavy target, and with Smite it is even better than the Voidraven against T3 W1 6+.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Conceal can only be cast on Infantry and Bikes, so you can never cast it on the Hemlock. I think I'm leaning towards the Voidraven, whilst it's shooting is nowhere near as reliable, it's total damage output is considerably higher.

A Hemlock which casts Conceal definitely gains the benefit of the -1 to hit. Compare the wording of Conceal to Enhance. Now, with multiple Hemlocks Conceal is a little awkward because if only one of them fails its psychic test then that's the one that the enemy will shoot, but Conceal/Reveal is probably still the best power choice for them unless you're up against an all-melee army where Enhance/Drain makes more sense.

If by "total damage output" you're talking about the Voidraven's bomb, then, yes, it can expect to do a lot more damage in a turn than the Hemlock given the right targets, though it can only do this for one turn. With guns alone, the Hemlock expects to do more damage to any heavy target, and with Smite it is even better than the Voidraven against T3 W1 6+.

Your right, I misread Conceal so it will affect the Hemlock. Mind you, with it's need to get within 16" it's entirely possible for Psykers to deny it.

By total damage output I meant that a pair of Dark Scythes can cause up to 18 wounds (D3 shots each doing D3 damage) and the Shatterfield Missiles can add up to another 6 for potentially 24 per turn. The Hemlock maxes out at 18, but with Smite and the Heavy D-Scythes being auto hit it will probably do more damage reliably. I did not include the Void Mine as it's one use only.

I like the Hemlock. It's a great package of special rules, and the potential -2TH is just silly. I'm as happy about the deny you get as I am about the Conceal too, possibly because I've been building Smite lists the last couple of days.