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If a character is 8" away from your unit and declares a charge, would another unit 6" away prevent you from firing overwatch? I think it would but wanted to check I wasn't missing anything.

The Character rule only applies during the Shooting Phase.

From 'Characters':

A Character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting.

Overwatch does not occur in the Shooting phase, thus the Character has no specific protection from Overwatch.

Here I am thinking I have a good grasp of the new rules and now suddenly realize that all psychic powers can snipe characters. That makes a lot more sense now why Smite has to be closest unit.

Thanks guys.

EDIT: or girls!

Avadar wrote:The Character rule only applies during the Shooting Phase.

Ghaz wrote:From 'Characters':

A Character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting.

Overwatch does not occur in the Shooting phase, thus the Character has no specific protection from Overwatch.

Keep in mind the recent FAQ which considered any Shooting to being a mini-Shooting Phase. We are not so far separated from that to dismiss that at hand.

What FAQ? The one for 7th edition?

Do you actually 'choose' a target when firing overwatch?

Player A charges and player B chooses to fire overwatch, he didn't actually get to choose his target. Only re-act to an action.

So charge with an expendable unit first.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Do you actually 'choose' a target when firing overwatch?

Player A charges and player B chooses to fire overwatch, he didn't actually get to choose his target. Only re-act to an action.

So charge with an expendable unit first.

Cheers

Andrew

While this is still true, in 8th, a unit can overwatch multiple times - in fact, they get to overwatch every unit that charges them until someone makes it into combat with them.

 Charistoph wrote:
Keep in mind the recent FAQ which considered any Shooting to being a mini-Shooting Phase. We are not so far separated from that to dismiss that at hand.

Could you point me to that FAQ? I would like to see if it could be applicable.

I think Charistoph is referring to GW's habit in 7th of saying "in the Shooting Phase" when they really meant "any time you shoot". I strongly feel that this part of the rules was cleared up in 8th, and now if something says "in the Shooting Phase" then it means just that phase. NOTE that GW is very good in 8th at saying "as if it were the Shooting Phase" and similar. Overwatch doesn't have that stipulation, specifically stating that this is a shooting attack that happens during your opponent's Charge phase.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
Do you actually 'choose' a target when firing overwatch?

Player A charges and player B chooses to fire overwatch, he didn't actually get to choose his target. Only re-act to an action.

So charge with an expendable unit first.

Cheers

Andrew

While this is still true, in 8th, a unit can overwatch multiple times - in fact, they get to overwatch every unit that charges them until someone makes it into combat with them.

You're right, and I didn't expand to say 'and hope they make it into contact before charging with the character'

But I don't think that overwatch is a normal shooting phase. After all if it was then you could shoot at a target other than the charger by splitting fire. From what I can see you cant do that, you can only fire at the chargers, so the choice of target is outwith the firing units control.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
While this is still true, in 8th, a unit can overwatch multiple times - in fact, they get to overwatch every unit that charges them until someone makes it into combat with them.

You're right, and I didn't expand to say 'and hope they make it into contact before charging with the character'

But I don't think that overwatch is a normal shooting phase. After all if it was then you could shoot at a target other than the charger by splitting fire. From what I can see you cant do that, you can only fire at the chargers, so the choice of target is outwith the firing units control.

Cheers

Andrew

That's an incorrect analogy. There is the argument to be made, based on how GW ruled these types of situations in 7th edition, that whenever a rule says it occurs 'in the shooting phase' that when a unit is firing overwatch, which uses the rules for shooting, uses any and all applicable shooting phase rules as well.

For example, in the 7th edition rulebook, the rules said that Monstrous Creatures (and also Tau Battlesuits with Multi-trackers) could fire two weapons 'in the shooting phase' so many people argued this meant when Monstrous Creatures (and Tau Battlesuits with multi-trackers) fired overwatch, they could only fire a single weapon. But in their FAQs, GW ruled that rules like these still worked in overwatch.

Now, even if GW were to rule that things which happen 'in the shooting phase' are allowed to occur during overwatch, that still doesn't mean you ignore the specific restrictions that overwatch itself presents (must fire at the charging unit, requires '6' to hit). Those restrictions aren't invalidated even if you allow 'shooting phase' rules into overwatch.

So I'm just saying people shouldn't be too quick to assume that this is an open and shut case. This is definitely one that needs to be cleared up by GW in a FAQ based on their past rulings on these exact types of things.

Gordon Shumway wrote:What FAQ? The one for 7th edition?

Yes, for 7th Ed FAQ. And it is rather recent, which can demonstrate the thought process of the staff in general.

Avadar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Keep in mind the recent FAQ which considered any Shooting to being a mini-Shooting Phase. We are not so far separated from that to dismiss that at hand.

Could you point me to that FAQ? I would like to see if it could be applicable.

It's in the general rulebook FAQ for Monstrous Creatures, and any number of codices which provide a special rule or Wargear like Tau Multitrackers. Most of them included them.

Yarium wrote:I think Charistoph is referring to GW's habit in 7th of saying "in the Shooting Phase" when they really meant "any time you shoot". I strongly feel that this part of the rules was cleared up in 8th, and now if something says "in the Shooting Phase" then it means just that phase. NOTE that GW is very good in 8th at saying "as if it were the Shooting Phase" and similar. Overwatch doesn't have that stipulation, specifically stating that this is a shooting attack that happens during your opponent's Charge phase.

It doesn't? Then what process do we use for Overwatch for clarification.

 Charistoph wrote:

Avadar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Keep in mind the recent FAQ which considered any Shooting to being a mini-Shooting Phase. We are not so far separated from that to dismiss that at hand.

Could you point me to that FAQ? I would like to see if it could be applicable.

It's in the general rulebook FAQ for Monstrous Creatures, and any number of codices which provide a special rule or Wargear like Tau Multitrackers. Most of them

None of those entries contain a blanket ruling that says all rules that apply to the Shooting Phase apply to Overwatch. Mostly they use the Shooting Phase to explain the Shooting attack part of Overwatch (ie, how many weapons can be used in it). None of them call the Overwatch a mini-shooting phase or anything similar. In fact, the Tau FAQ explicitly says that the Wall of Mirrors Rule (which specifically call for the Shooting Phase), cannot be used in Overwatch. If we are going to use the 7th edition FAQ, I think that is more relevant to the discussion at hand, and provides precedent that not all rules that apply to the Shooting Phase apply to Overwatch.

From 'Overwatch'

Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

I'm confident in saying that GW does not consider Overwatch a 'Shooting phase'.

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Overwatch'

Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

I'm confident in saying that GW does not consider Overwatch a 'Shooting phase'.

Agreed, but the bit: 'uses all the normal rules' is a very broad brush, that can most definitely include anything that is part of the firing process that normally occurs in the shooting phase.

From Overwatch

"Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit can immediately fire overwatch at the would-be attacker."

No target is chosen, even if it was considered a shooting phase and shooting phase rules applied you could still shoot the character as the shooting phase prevents "targeting" so they would still be able to fire overwatch.

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Overwatch'

Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

I'm confident in saying that GW does not consider Overwatch a 'Shooting phase'.

Problem being GW's rulewriting being so sloppy generally that playing by RAW is unworkable and you need to apply RAI. So what's the RAI here?

Avadar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Avadar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Keep in mind the recent FAQ which considered any Shooting to being a mini-Shooting Phase. We are not so far separated from that to dismiss that at hand.

Could you point me to that FAQ? I would like to see if it could be applicable.

It's in the general rulebook FAQ for Monstrous Creatures, and any number of codices which provide a special rule or Wargear like Tau Multitrackers. Most of them

None of those entries contain a blanket ruling that says all rules that apply to the Shooting Phase apply to Overwatch. Mostly they use the Shooting Phase to explain the Shooting attack part of Overwatch (ie, how many weapons can be used in it). None of them call the Overwatch a mini-shooting phase or anything similar. In fact, the Tau FAQ explicitly says that the Wall of Mirrors Rule (which specifically call for the Shooting Phase), cannot be used in Overwatch. If we are going to use the 7th edition FAQ, I think that is more relevant to the discussion at hand, and provides precedent that not all rules that apply to the Shooting Phase apply to Overwatch.

But many of the rules which ARE allowed to be used in Overwatch are as specific in being allowed in the Shooting Phase as part of its Shooting Attack. Wall of Mirrors is a specific action in the start of the Shooting Phase, not part of a Shooting Attack.

yakface wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Overwatch'

Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

I'm confident in saying that GW does not consider Overwatch a 'Shooting phase'.

Agreed, but the bit: 'uses all the normal rules' is a very broad brush, that can most definitely include anything that is part of the firing process that normally occurs in the shooting phase.

Pretty much.

What is with all the weak sauce arguments being made here?

7th edition FAQ does not apply in 8th edition.

8th edition is a completely new edition.

col_impact wrote:

What is with all the weak sauce arguments being made here?

7th edition FAQ does not apply in 8th edition.

8th edition is a completely new edition.

In 8th edition, the overwatch rules says that it 'is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll...'

So it uses 'all the normal rules' for shooting. Can you prove that doesn't include exceptions for characters that can't be targeted unless they are the closest unit? Yes, that rule specifies 'in the shooting phase', but there's also no delineation that can clearly tell us that it isn't a 'normal rule' for shooting that shouldn't be carried over into overwatch firing.

So there's the argument. Nobody can definitively say one way or another for sure.

The only reason 7th edition should bother being brought up is in relation to GW potentially answering this question via a forthcoming FAQ. Because if they do rule the same way they did in 7th edition for several issues with nearly wording to this one, then people just need to be aware that they did decide that the 'in shooting phase' rules applied during overwatch shooting.

 yakface wrote:

col_impact wrote:

What is with all the weak sauce arguments being made here?

7th edition FAQ does not apply in 8th edition.

8th edition is a completely new edition.

In 8th edition, the overwatch rules says that it 'is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll...'

So it uses 'all the normal rules' for shooting. Can you prove that doesn't include exceptions for characters that can't be targeted unless they are the closest unit? Yes, that rule specifies 'in the shooting phase', but there's also no delineation that can clearly tell us that it isn't a 'normal rule' for shooting that shouldn't be carried over into overwatch firing.

So there's the argument. Nobody can definitively say one way or another for sure.

The only reason 7th edition should bother being brought up is in relation to GW potentially answering this question via a forthcoming FAQ. Because if they do rule the same way they did in 7th edition for several issues with nearly wording to this one, then people just need to be aware that they did decide that the 'in shooting phase' rules applied during overwatch shooting.

Huh?

With 100% certainty it can be stated that Overwatch is not in a Shooting Phase.

No amount of access to the normal rules for shooting by Overwatch will change the Charge Phase to the Shooting Phase.

Until you have some rule that says Overwatch is a Shooting Phase or counts as a Shooting Phase we can definitively say that your argument is wrong.

You are wrong until the rules change on this matter.

I'm not 100% sure what Yakface is getting at.

The original question was if a charging character is not the closest unit when it declares a charge can it be targeted.

And the answer, for me, is yes they can.

Otherwise, if overwatch is a normal shooting attack, then I'll line up my 88s behind a line of kroot and when the kroot are charged, I'll take several shots at your tanks, because in a normal shooting attack I get to choose my targets when firing.

This may be the law of unintended consequences coming into play here, but surely that cant be intentional.

Cheers

Andrew

 yakface wrote:
In 8th edition, the overwatch rules says that it 'is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll...'

So it uses 'all the normal rules' for shooting. Can you prove that doesn't include exceptions for characters that can't be targeted unless they are the closest unit? Yes, that rule specifies 'in the shooting phase', but there's also no delineation that can clearly tell us that it isn't a 'normal rule' for shooting that shouldn't be carried over into overwatch firing.

So there's the argument. Nobody can definitively say one way or another for sure.

Pretty much. How GW sees permission to do things isn't as locked tight as some of us would prefer them to have it.

 yakface wrote:
The only reason 7th edition should bother being brought up is in relation to GW potentially answering this question via a forthcoming FAQ. Because if they do rule the same way they did in 7th edition for several issues with nearly wording to this one, then people just need to be aware that they did decide that the 'in shooting phase' rules applied during overwatch shooting.

Exactly. Unless the team doing FAQs has changed in the last year, we're looking at the same group who will look at the game with the same eyes and probably rule the same way.

While it isn't definitive nor full precedent (completely new system, after all), it is noteworthy as it gives us a good idea as to which way they would answer the question in a FAQ that comes out within any local time frame.

Don't know if this has been answered yet, but from Rulebook FAQ version 1.1

Q: Can a unit fire Overwatch at a Character if, when it
declares its charge at them, there are other visible enemy models
that are closer?
A: Yes.

Was it necessary to resurrect a 3 1/2 month old thread to post that?

 Charistoph wrote:
Was it necessary to resurrect a 3 1/2 month old thread to post that?

People who don't frequent (or even use) the forum could pump this question into a search engine and find this thread. Might as well include the answer once it's finally official, regardless of age.

Larks wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Was it necessary to resurrect a 3 1/2 month old thread to post that?

People who don't frequent (or even use) the forum could pump this question into a search engine and find this thread. Might as well include the answer once it's finally official, regardless of age.

And they can get answers that are editions old as well. Most forums frown on threadomancy for good reason.

Awww, and I thought I had another chance to rant on how stupid it is to still be using the words 'all the normal rules' due to the confusion that can cause... oh well.
I do agree that attaching an official answer and then locking the thread should become standard practice. Those 'year old threads' are not going to get Frequently Asked Question answers any time soon, so I doubt we have to worry about thread-necromancy all that much. It isn't something that will become standard practice unless a handful of dedicated posters undertake the task themselves, it is not the job of the administrators here to patrol threads that might be a few months old, and a dozen pages back, just to keep them all updated... but someone cared enough for this one, for some reason....

So what really is the harm of encouraging people to do so for 8th edition and forward?
I'm not going to, I barely remember the Frequently Asked Questions exist myself....