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So can any CSM character summon Daemons? So I am guessing if I am running a nurgle themed CSM list the Daemons would need to be followers of papa nurgle. Is that correct? Thanks

yep, lords, dark apostles if it has the chaos and character keyword ye golden

A character with the appropriate matching keyword (i.e. matching Chaos God).

Another minor note that some people have missed (seen complaints online) - you roll "up to" 3D6. So you're not forced to roll three dice. If you think you can summon something with one dice, go for it. Two dice is likely and you'll only suffer a single wound if you screw it up, etc.

If you have undivided Charcters they can summon any of the Daemons.

Also where does it say thst you suffer wounds when summoning.

Edit: Okay I found it its 1 wound on doubles which isnt bad at all. Triples are D3 but that 6 in 216 less the 3%

Doubles are kinda low as well only 8%.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
If you have undivided Charcters they can summon any of the Daemons.

Also where does it say thst you suffer wounds when summoning.

Perils. With only one dice it is impossible. With two it is much less likely than with three.

 Elbows wrote:
A character with the appropriate matching keyword (i.e. matching Chaos God).

That's not quite it.
A character who owes allegiance can only summon monsters of that patron. CSM unaligned characters can pull from whichever patron they desire.
This can get you a lot more flexibility.

Summoning is fairly gimped, though. It can only be used to summon small to medium sized units. The fact that the summoning model cannot move is a big drawback. If you plan on doing a heroic intervention in the fight phase, or you are already in a fight, or are a shooting character it's not a big issue -- but otherwise not moving sucks.

Where does it say you can only summon small to medium sized units?

Even Daemons can summon Daemons now.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Where does it say you can only summon small to medium sized units?

He's probably referring to the fact that summoning large PL demons will be rather tough, tho not impossible. (ie, like Thirsters, LOC, etc...).

I saw a battle report on MWG(I know not the best resource rules wise but they do have a good production value) with three chaos undivided characters summoning a load of daemons protected by three min squads of cultist. This seems to be a really fun/flexible build. He said his starting cost was around 400 pts in a 1500 pt game so he had more than enough points to summon a load of units. Also you'd usually get to go first in most games so you'd be able to spit out those new units pretty quickly for protection.

Another character I'd like to add to this build would be Be'lakor because he's undivided as well.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Where does it say you can only summon small to medium sized units?

Because you have to roll equal to or under the power rating of the unit you are summoning (in battle points) on 3d6.

3d6 is a bell curve, so summoning a unit that has a 14+ power rating gets absurdly small. A D thirster is 17 point, so you have a %1.85 of summoning it....

Therefore, summoning is only practical on small to medium power level stuff. If the power level is greater than 9, don't bother.



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 digital-animal wrote:
Another character I'd like to add to this build would be Be'lakor because he's undivided as well.

Abbadon could summon all as well, and he would keep the cultists from running

 labmouse42 wrote:
Because you have to roll equal to or under the power rating of the unit you are summoning (in battle points) on 3d6.

3d6 is a bell curve, so summoning a unit that has a 14+ power rating gets absurdly small. A D thirster is 17 point, so you have a %1.85 of summoning it....

Therefore, summoning is only practical on small to medium power level stuff. If the power level is greater than 9, don't bother.

Okay and what is the probabilty of rolling 10 or 11? Ill tell you, they are the same and they are equally probable. A simple reroll and you can easily turn an average roll into a 12 which get you a GUO. Not exactly a small unit. Even on an average roll you can get PL 10 units which is not too shabby.

No, labmouse is correct. He stated that smaller daemon units are more practical and likely.

Summoning certain large daemons is risky and you stand a decent chance of your daemons not making it onto the table (particularly if your opponent guns for your characters who are able to summon them).

The good thing is that you can choose the unit after you roll (albeit of the god you had to choose prior to the roll)
So if I have the points available for 6 Screamers (PL9) or a LoC (PL17) I'd likely only get the Screamers, but if I roll high enough, I'd be able to summon the LoC

However, I think it is wise to field you Characters and attempt summoning "medium" PL units. Not only to ensure you have enough Characters on the field to try, but also because DPs and GDs are such high PL that they are likely not to be summoned.
Average on 3D6 is about 10, so anything above PL10 that you really want summoned should be placed on the board

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
If you have undivided Charcters they can summon any of the Daemons.

Also where does it say thst you suffer wounds when summoning.

Edit: Okay I found it its 1 wound on doubles which isnt bad at all. Triples are D3 but that 6 in 216 less the 3%

Doubles are kinda low as well only 8%.

Your mathhammer is off a bit on the doubles: for two dice you have a 17% chance of rolling a double and for three dice it is 27.7% for a double (you are right that it is 3% for a triple though). So you have somewhere near a 30% chance of losing a wound (or more) when summoning on three dice.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Your mathhammer is off a bit on the doubles: for two dice you have a 17% chance of rolling a double and for three dice it is 27.7% for a double (you are right that it is 3% for a triple though). So you have somewhere near a 30% chance of losing a wound (or more) when summoning on three dice.

This is one of the many reasons that summoning is a bad mechanic.

It's also a great spot for a command point reroll.

Be'lakor is PL 12, I believe. Could you summon him? Also do you have to choose which god you're intending to summon from? Not a huge deal but if I take a few undivided characters I want to be sure I'm getting summoning straight.

 digital-animal wrote:
Be'lakor is PL 12, I believe. Could you summon him? Also do you have to choose which god you're intending to summon from? Not a huge deal but if I take a few undivided characters I want to be sure I'm getting summoning straight.

That's interesting. Belakor isn't dedicated to a god and since you have to choice an alignment to summon, can Bels even be summoned?
He has the Daemonic Ritual ability

I really see no advantage in summoning, to me it seems like a hindrance. Failed rolls, summoner characters getting killed, etc. Not to mention you have to set aside those points as reinforcements when they might not even make it on the board...

evolyze wrote:
I really see no advantage in summoning, to me it seems like a hindrance. Failed rolls, summoner characters getting killed, etc. Not to mention you have to set aside those points as reinforcements when they might not even make it on the board...

Overall, I agree
However, I can see it as a decent means to use the speed of a fast character to bring slower (cheap) units forward.
The best example I can think of is Beasts of Nurgle. They only move 6" now (boo!) but can put out a decent amount of damage for their small points cost.
They are also a "guaranteed" Summon at only PL2. Even a unit of 2 (PL4) is almost a guarantee.

So you set aside a few points for some Beasts of Nurgle, take a few Nurgle DPs and by turn 2-3 you can Summon those beasts. All the better if the DP is already in combat
The other advantage is that you can list tailor to a small degree. If you don't want Beasts of Nurgle, use those points for other units.

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evolyze wrote:
I really see no advantage in summoning, to me it seems like a hindrance. Failed rolls, summoner characters getting killed, etc. Not to mention you have to set aside those points as reinforcements when they might not even make it on the board...

One thing I do like is that it gives you a good chance at starting first. It also allows you to be more dynamic in game after setup. I wasn't too thrilled with it at first but I think it could actually be quite fun.

 labmouse42 wrote:

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 digital-animal wrote:
Another character I'd like to add to this build would be Be'lakor because he's undivided as well.

Abbadon could summon all as well, and he would keep the cultists from running

Oh... could Abby ignore peril rolls too? (on a 4+)??

I think it's hysterical that Abby could end up being the most consistent summoner....

I think the summoning mechanic is just about perfect. It's essentially free, takes a little bit of risk, but allows you to possible deepstrike daemons in various places on the board. I like that it's not necessary but simply a fun option.

That being said I don't know if deepstrike is an ability which is factored into the cost of a normal unit like Terminators, etc. So, mathematically it may not be great.

It's unlikely you'll die (almost ever) from summoning even when using three dice. Things like 10 plaguebearers only cost like 5 power, and will thus come in most of the time on two dice.

I have a lord and a sorcerer with jump pack so mobility isn't a huge issue. Assuming they don't get shot to death before they have a chance to bring them in, I'll likely start with some daemons off board. It's a nice thematic thing - while it's appropriately tough to magically bring in the big beasties.

If summoning happened at the start of the movement phase before the character moved and didn't prevent movement, I think it would be just about fair. As it stands, it's a complete joke compared to every other version of deepstrike/special deployment.

I look forward to trying to find ways to make it work, but it feels like another nail in the coffin for the "average" daemons list.

In Narrative games, summoning is great (read: broken) as they are "free" units. Sacrificing a character's movement is a fair price for that. It takes concentration to bring forth creatures from another dimension, after all.

However in Matched play, it is an overpriced method of deep strike. Having to pay points is fine, but it shouldn't come with other downsides and restrictions if you are already paying for the units.
This is why you will hardly see Summoning in Matched play, yet in Narrative paly it will be spammed by every Daemon player.

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