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Two quick questions on charging:

1. Even though you can roll a 12 and therefore get into combat with an enemy unit that is 12.9999" away, you cannot declare a charge unless they are within 12", correct? So you can roll an 11 and charge a unit 11.1" away, but cannot roll a 12 and charge a unit 12.1" away?

2. If a unit has a rule that allows rerolls for charges, do you have to reroll both dice or can you keep a high number and just reroll one?

Rulebook (rerolls)- Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.

Xenos 1 (Khaine Awakened)- Friendly Asuryani units within 12" of the Avatar of Khaine do not take Morale tests, and you can re-roll failed charge rolls for these units.

Does the sum of the 2D6 charge move count as a failed charge (i.e. is a failed charge a roll of a 6 and a 1 or rather a sum roll of a 7), and if you reroll it must it be a brand new 2D6 roll or can you choose only one die to reroll?

 Oaka wrote:
Two quick questions on charging:

1. Even though you can roll a 12 and therefore get into combat with an enemy unit that is 12.9999" away, you cannot declare a charge unless they are within 12", correct? So you can roll an 11 and charge a unit 11.1" away, but cannot roll a 12 and charge a unit 12.1" away?

2. If a unit has a rule that allows rerolls for charges, do you have to reroll both dice or can you keep a high number and just reroll one?

Rulebook (rerolls)- Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.

Xenos 1 (Khaine Awakened)- Friendly Asuryani units within 12" of the Avatar of Khaine do not take Morale tests, and you can re-roll failed charge rolls for these units.

Does the sum of the 2D6 charge move count as a failed charge (i.e. is a failed charge a roll of a 6 and a 1 or rather a sum roll of a 7), and if you reroll it must it be a brand new 2D6 roll or can you choose only one die to reroll?

1. "Once you have chosen an eligible unit, select one or more enemy units within 12" of them as the target..." Only units within 12" are valid targets for a charge. A unit 12.1" away can't be selected as a target.

2. The roll in that case would be 2D6. Using the Avatar's ability would involve re-rolling the 2D6, as that's the "charge roll". If you burned a Command Point to re-roll any one die, you'd be able to just re-roll one of the 2D6. So, if you got a 6 and a 1, it might be better to burn a Command Point to re-roll the 1 versus using the Avatar's ability to re-roll both dice.

Also wondering if Charge rolls suffer the same strange fate of rerolls happening before modifiers. Say you charge a unit 6.1" away in woods and roll a 7. The woods subtract 2", so it would be a failed charge, but without the modifier it is a successful charge, and can't be rerolled?

 Oaka wrote:
Also wondering if Charge rolls suffer the same strange fate of rerolls happening before modifiers. Say you charge a unit 6.1" away in woods and roll a 7. The woods subtract 2", so it would be a failed charge, but without the modifier it is a successful charge, and can't be rerolled?

Rules are clear on the ordering here. You re-roll before modifiers. Yes, it leads to weird cases like that where it's a success before modifiers, then modifiers make it fail, but making it the other way around is A LOT worse when it comes to stuff breaking.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Rules are clear on the ordering here. You re-roll before modifiers. Yes, it leads to weird cases like that where it's a success before modifiers, then modifiers make it fail, but making it the other way around is A LOT worse when it comes to stuff breaking.

How in god's name would it be worse the other way?

If re-rolls were applied AFTER modifiers, and then every rule that wanted something to occur off of the actual result rolled on the die just said 'unmodified' or 'natural' (which GW could have quickly defined), then everything would have worked the way it intuitively should. Re-rolls based off of successes/failures could actually be used to re-roll all successes/failures. And rules like plasma overcharges could occur on an 'unmodified' or 'natural' roll of '1', which would make a whole hell of a lot more sense than how they work now.

Because you either make all the re-roll rules say "on a natural 1 only" which removes the whole reason for making modifiers come first, or you have to make them "1 or less", thus making debuff auras actually end up benefiting the enemy because your rerolls now trigger more often.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because you either make all the re-roll rules say "on a natural 1 only" which removes the whole reason for making modifiers come first, or you have to make them "1 or less", thus making debuff auras actually end up benefiting the enemy because your rerolls now trigger more often.

Precisely. I'm saying re-rolls SHOULD happen after modifiers (that's what I thought you were talking about when you said it would be way worse the 'other way'), and times when GW wanted like just rolls of '1' to be re-rolled they should have said 'unmodified' or 'natural' '1's (and quickly defined what that term meant in the core rules). It would have taken one more sentence in the main rules, and one additional word ('unmodified' or 'natural') in ability text and everything would be soooooo much more intuitive.

 yakface wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because you either make all the re-roll rules say "on a natural 1 only" which removes the whole reason for making modifiers come first, or you have to make them "1 or less", thus making debuff auras actually end up benefiting the enemy because your rerolls now trigger more often.

Precisely. I'm saying re-rolls SHOULD happen after modifiers (that's what I thought you were talking about when you said it would be way worse the 'other way'), and times when GW wanted like just rolls of '1' to be re-rolled they should have said 'unmodified' or 'natural' '1's (and quickly defined what that term meant in the core rules). It would have taken one more sentence in the main rules, and one additional word ('unmodified' or 'natural') in ability text and everything would be soooooo much more intuitive.

But then as I said your debuff auras are actually benefiting the enemy, which is arse about elbows in any reality.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
But then as I said your debuff auras are actually benefiting the enemy, which is arse about elbows in any reality.

Its the way it should work. If you're missing stuff due to modifiers and you're allowed to reroll misses, then you should get to reroll all your misses.

If an enemy unit already has the ability to re-roll misses (after modifiers) and your unit gives the enemy a -1 to hit modifier, in no way are you helping them statistically get more hits.

3+ to hit, rerolling. Hits 8/9 times or 32/36 times.

4+ to hit, rerolling. Hits 3/4 times or 27/36 times.

Basic math shows debuffs still work.

Some terrain and special rules reduce charge ranges as well so rolling a 12 can be handy in those situations

And sadly a unit like Howling Banshees (add 3" to their advance and charge rolls) still cannot target a unit beyond 12" which is a little odd.

It just improves their chances to get into combat. The Brass Scorpion charges 3d6, but can only attempt a charge from 12". It keeps a lid on some crazy charges when adding in CP re-rolls (which can be done at will, not reliant on the fail/pass test).

 Oaka wrote:
Also wondering if Charge rolls suffer the same strange fate of rerolls happening before modifiers. Say you charge a unit 6.1" away in woods and roll a 7. The woods subtract 2", so it would be a failed charge, but without the modifier it is a successful charge, and can't be rerolled?

No because a charge isn't failed until you move the first model towards the nearest enemy model and it cannot get within 1". The re-roll is not triggered in this instance until after the modifiers are applied which is most often the case people just can't read. So the -2" charge distance for woods and a unit of orks re-rolling failed charges. The charge isn't declared pass or fail until modifiers have been applied, and the model has moved that distance and can't get within 1" of the enemy.

Another example a unit that re-rolls misses in the shooting phase. The re-roll is not triggered until it "misses" so it BS is 3+ and is firing at a tank that popped smoke -1 to hit. It rolls a 3+ that's a hit, but then it's -1 for smoke now it's a miss, and now the re-roll is triggered for that ability.

Another example a unit can re-roll rolls of 1 in the shooting phase. The plasma gunner hits on a 3+ and overcharges his plasma shooting at a tank that popped smoke -1 to hit. The plasma gunner rolls a 2 but it has a -1 so now it's a 1 which triggers the re-roll. Side note shooting overcharged plasma at things with negative to hit modifiers is now borderline suicidal unless you get re-rolls.


Why? You don't re-roll anything until it tells you to re-roll. Thus any modifiers that take place before you "fail" do not matter. You cannot pass and then fail. It doesn't matter did it fail? Yes. Do you get to re-roll fails? Yes. Then you re-roll. So when does this rule matter?

Say a unit re-rolls 1's to hit, but a power gives it +1 to hit rolls. So you roll a dice, and roll a 1. Which triggers the re-roll before the +1 to hit roll modifier is applied and it becomes a 2. IE If a Hive Tyrant uses a power that gives a unit of Genestealers with scything talons +1 to hit in the fight phase. He did not effectively just negate all the scything talons.

This is important because modifiers stack. So should you say re-roll 1's, and fire an overcharged plasma cannon after moving at something that is -2 to hit you basically re-roll if it's anything less than a 5+. Because 4 - 3 = 1 which triggers the re-roll, and would also otherwise trigger the plasma to kill the shooter.