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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 15:07:04
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Sinewy Scourge
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The rules for bone mace (and several similar weapons) say:
Bone Mace says (Page 104 Xenos 2):
"Each time the bearer fights, one (and only one) of its attacks must be made with this weapon."
Now clearly this means you must make one of its attacks with this weapon. Does it also mean you may not make more than one? Really not sure on this and as my friend is building a bunch of Fexen right now it's relevant to how he models them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 15:10:22
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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1 attack must be with the mace. The others must be with any other CCW the Fex has, or with the basic profile if he doesnt have any other, ie you took 2 biocannons
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 15:19:00
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Sinewy Scourge
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Just to make sure I understand you, this means he can make a maximum of one attack with the mace? The way I was reading it, it meant that it must make one, but there was no restriction on making more.
Fine by me if that is how it works. It's similar to my Talos then that has the wording "The bearer can make a maximum of one attack with this weapon."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 15:24:20
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Norn Queen
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Fragile wrote:1 attack must be with the mace. The others must be with any other CCW the Fex has, or with the basic profile if he doesnt have any other, ie you took 2 biocannons
https://i.imgur.com/DpQ9YJl.png
You can't. You don't have the basic CCW if you have any other Melee Weapons. Unless the Carnifex has Talons or Claws, it only makes 1 attack with the mace and then can't do anything else.
Drager wrote:Just to make sure I understand you, this means he can make a maximum of one attack with the mace? The way I was reading it, it meant that it must make one, but there was no restriction on making more.
Fine by me if that is how it works. It's similar to my Talos then that has the wording "The bearer can make a maximum of one attack with this weapon."
It literally says "One (and ONLY one)". It doesn't just say One.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 15:35:59
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Sinewy Scourge
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It does say "One (and ONLY one) must..." so one and only one must be made with that weapon. It doesn't say:
"Each time the bearer fights, one of its attacks must (and only one may) be made with this weapon."
Which is how you seem to be reading it. To me that emphasises that the restriction is that one attack must be made given the immediately following verb, I don't see anything that restricts permission to make more attacks with it.
I'm not saying I am definitively correct, but you can see how that reading also makes sense right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 15:42:02
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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It is a CC weapon. It must be used at least once and then you can use it for as many other attacks as you want. There are no non weapon attacks in a Nid army as anything that can take 4 ranged weapons has a tail.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 15:52:26
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Norn Queen
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Gloomfang wrote:It is a CC weapon. It must be used at least once and then you can use it for as many other attacks as you want. There are no non weapon attacks in a Nid army as anything that can take 4 ranged weapons has a tail.
Sorry but that is 100% incorrect. A Bone Mace can used to make one attack when the carnifex fights. You can't make all 4 with it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 15:55:11
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Sinewy Scourge
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BaconCatBug wrote: Gloomfang wrote:It is a CC weapon. It must be used at least once and then you can use it for as many other attacks as you want. There are no non weapon attacks in a Nid army as anything that can take 4 ranged weapons has a tail.
Sorry but that is 100% incorrect. A Bone Mace can used to make one attack when the carnifex fights. You can't make all 4 with it.
I'm still having trouble seeing that restriction. Can you explain why being told that "one (and ONLY one) must" means that only one may? I might just be being dumb, but I don't understand how you get from one to the other.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 15:59:23
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Lieutenant General
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Drager wrote: BaconCatBug wrote: Gloomfang wrote:It is a CC weapon. It must be used at least once and then you can use it for as many other attacks as you want. There are no non weapon attacks in a Nid army as anything that can take 4 ranged weapons has a tail.
Sorry but that is 100% incorrect. A Bone Mace can used to make one attack when the carnifex fights. You can't make all 4 with it.
I'm still having trouble seeing that restriction. Can you explain why being told that "one (and ONLY one) must" means that only one may? I might just be being dumb, but I don't understand how you get from one to the other.
What does 'one' mean? What does 'only one' mean? Does either of them mean 'two or more'?
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 16:02:28
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Sinewy Scourge
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It means one. The term one is followed by must, not may. So it is a different restriction. It is saying you must make one attack with this weapon, but don't have to make more than one attack with this weapon. Essentially it says nothing about what weapon your other attacks may be made with. It simply says one must be made with this weapon. I am fine with being wrong about this, but it is not as obvious as you seem to believe. Can you see that the other reading makes sense? I can kinda see how you get to yours.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/22 16:05:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 16:05:04
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Lieutenant General
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'Must' means the same that it always has (i.e., it's not optional).
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 16:06:07
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Sinewy Scourge
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Edited my post alot as I had more thoughts.
I agree. Must means not optional. So it is not optional that you make one attack, it doesn't mention other attacks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 16:07:46
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Lieutenant General
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Drager wrote:It means one. The term one is followed by must, not may. So it is a different restriction. It is saying you must make one attack with this weapon, but don't have to make more than one attack with this weapon. Essentially it says nothing about what weapon your other attacks may be made with. It simply says one must be made with this weapon. I am fine with being wrong about this, but it is not as obvious as you seem to believe. Can you see that the other reading makes sense? I can kinda see how you get to yours.
No. It means that you must make one and only one attack with that weapon. If you're making two or more attacks with that weapon, have you made 'only one' attack with that weapon? No.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 16:12:20
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Must applies to the whole sentence so when applied to the parenthetical it is saying "must make only one attack"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 16:12:51
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Sinewy Scourge
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I don't think the sentence says that at all. That would be
"Each time the bearer fights, it must make one (and only one) attack with this weapon."
Which is different in meaning to the actual rule:
"Each time the bearer fights, one (and only one) of its attacks must be made with this weapon."
Does that help you see how I am reading it? I am not asking you to agree with me, just to see if you understand the position.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/22 16:13:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 16:18:41
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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No. It says only one. It would be completely redundant for them to add the parenthetical if it didn't mean ONLY ONE attack
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 16:27:53
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Sinewy Scourge
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So the parenthetical isnt an emphasis or clarification? It's a change in the meaning? Interesting take.
So you would agree with my reading if tge parenthetical was absent?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 16:34:43
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Yes .
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 16:50:46
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Sinewy Scourge
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Then can you understand how I can read it as a clarification/emphasis? Again not asking you to agree, just if you are familiar with parenthetical emphasis as a construct in language.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 18:27:14
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Yes I can see where you are coming from. I can also see why some people think the world is flat. Doesn't mean you aren't just flat out wrong.
The parenthetical is a clarification. It's clarifying that that one attack is the only attack that can use the bone saw
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 19:33:51
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Sinewy Scourge
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Cool, as long as you can see where I am coming from and disagree that is fine. I can see where you are coming from too. For myself, I am genuinely unsure as to the intent, as it's an ambiguous sentence and both intents make sense. They have also used other wording elsewhere to be explicit about only being allowed one attack, without the ambiguity.
I find your reading quite unnatural in the way that I typically use language, but I can also see how you reach that conclusion. I'll probably just always play it however the tyranid player wants to against different tyranid players, until and unless it receives a FAQ. It very well may not receive one if the writers think the intent is clear one way or the other.
EDIT: A slight digression, just out of curiosity, how would you write a rule to mean what I think this one does?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/22 19:35:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/22 19:38:06
Subject: Bone Mace and Similar
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Norn Queen
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You wouldn't need a special rule at all, or you would say "at least one" instead of specifying an exact amount.
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