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Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




The rules for bone mace (and several similar weapons) say:

Bone Mace says (Page 104 Xenos 2):
"Each time the bearer fights, one (and only one) of its attacks must be made with this weapon."

Now clearly this means you must make one of its attacks with this weapon. Does it also mean you may not make more than one? Really not sure on this and as my friend is building a bunch of Fexen right now it's relevant to how he models them.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




1 attack must be with the mace. The others must be with any other CCW the Fex has, or with the basic profile if he doesnt have any other, ie you took 2 biocannons
   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




Just to make sure I understand you, this means he can make a maximum of one attack with the mace? The way I was reading it, it meant that it must make one, but there was no restriction on making more.

Fine by me if that is how it works. It's similar to my Talos then that has the wording "The bearer can make a maximum of one attack with this weapon."
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Fragile wrote:
1 attack must be with the mace. The others must be with any other CCW the Fex has, or with the basic profile if he doesnt have any other, ie you took 2 biocannons

https://i.imgur.com/DpQ9YJl.png

You can't. You don't have the basic CCW if you have any other Melee Weapons. Unless the Carnifex has Talons or Claws, it only makes 1 attack with the mace and then can't do anything else.

Drager wrote:
Just to make sure I understand you, this means he can make a maximum of one attack with the mace? The way I was reading it, it meant that it must make one, but there was no restriction on making more.

Fine by me if that is how it works. It's similar to my Talos then that has the wording "The bearer can make a maximum of one attack with this weapon."
It literally says "One (and ONLY one)". It doesn't just say One.

   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




It does say "One (and ONLY one) must..." so one and only one must be made with that weapon. It doesn't say:

"Each time the bearer fights, one of its attacks must (and only one may) be made with this weapon."

Which is how you seem to be reading it. To me that emphasises that the restriction is that one attack must be made given the immediately following verb, I don't see anything that restricts permission to make more attacks with it.

I'm not saying I am definitively correct, but you can see how that reading also makes sense right?
   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard





It is a CC weapon. It must be used at least once and then you can use it for as many other attacks as you want. There are no non weapon attacks in a Nid army as anything that can take 4 ranged weapons has a tail.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Gloomfang wrote:
It is a CC weapon. It must be used at least once and then you can use it for as many other attacks as you want. There are no non weapon attacks in a Nid army as anything that can take 4 ranged weapons has a tail.
Sorry but that is 100% incorrect. A Bone Mace can used to make one attack when the carnifex fights. You can't make all 4 with it.
   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Gloomfang wrote:
It is a CC weapon. It must be used at least once and then you can use it for as many other attacks as you want. There are no non weapon attacks in a Nid army as anything that can take 4 ranged weapons has a tail.
Sorry but that is 100% incorrect. A Bone Mace can used to make one attack when the carnifex fights. You can't make all 4 with it.


I'm still having trouble seeing that restriction. Can you explain why being told that "one (and ONLY one) must" means that only one may? I might just be being dumb, but I don't understand how you get from one to the other.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Drager wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Gloomfang wrote:
It is a CC weapon. It must be used at least once and then you can use it for as many other attacks as you want. There are no non weapon attacks in a Nid army as anything that can take 4 ranged weapons has a tail.
Sorry but that is 100% incorrect. A Bone Mace can used to make one attack when the carnifex fights. You can't make all 4 with it.


I'm still having trouble seeing that restriction. Can you explain why being told that "one (and ONLY one) must" means that only one may? I might just be being dumb, but I don't understand how you get from one to the other.

What does 'one' mean? What does 'only one' mean? Does either of them mean 'two or more'?

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




It means one. The term one is followed by must, not may. So it is a different restriction. It is saying you must make one attack with this weapon, but don't have to make more than one attack with this weapon. Essentially it says nothing about what weapon your other attacks may be made with. It simply says one must be made with this weapon. I am fine with being wrong about this, but it is not as obvious as you seem to believe. Can you see that the other reading makes sense? I can kinda see how you get to yours.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/22 16:05:21


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Drager wrote:
It means one. What does must mean?

'Must' means the same that it always has (i.e., it's not optional).

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




Edited my post alot as I had more thoughts.

I agree. Must means not optional. So it is not optional that you make one attack, it doesn't mention other attacks.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Drager wrote:
It means one. The term one is followed by must, not may. So it is a different restriction. It is saying you must make one attack with this weapon, but don't have to make more than one attack with this weapon. Essentially it says nothing about what weapon your other attacks may be made with. It simply says one must be made with this weapon. I am fine with being wrong about this, but it is not as obvious as you seem to believe. Can you see that the other reading makes sense? I can kinda see how you get to yours.

No. It means that you must make one and only one attack with that weapon. If you're making two or more attacks with that weapon, have you made 'only one' attack with that weapon? No.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





Must applies to the whole sentence so when applied to the parenthetical it is saying "must make only one attack"
   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




I don't think the sentence says that at all. That would be

"Each time the bearer fights, it must make one (and only one) attack with this weapon."

Which is different in meaning to the actual rule:

"Each time the bearer fights, one (and only one) of its attacks must be made with this weapon."

Does that help you see how I am reading it? I am not asking you to agree with me, just to see if you understand the position.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/22 16:13:20


 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





No. It says only one. It would be completely redundant for them to add the parenthetical if it didn't mean ONLY ONE attack
   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




So the parenthetical isnt an emphasis or clarification? It's a change in the meaning? Interesting take.

So you would agree with my reading if tge parenthetical was absent?
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





Yes .
   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




Then can you understand how I can read it as a clarification/emphasis? Again not asking you to agree, just if you are familiar with parenthetical emphasis as a construct in language.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





Yes I can see where you are coming from. I can also see why some people think the world is flat. Doesn't mean you aren't just flat out wrong.

The parenthetical is a clarification. It's clarifying that that one attack is the only attack that can use the bone saw
   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




Cool, as long as you can see where I am coming from and disagree that is fine. I can see where you are coming from too. For myself, I am genuinely unsure as to the intent, as it's an ambiguous sentence and both intents make sense. They have also used other wording elsewhere to be explicit about only being allowed one attack, without the ambiguity.

I find your reading quite unnatural in the way that I typically use language, but I can also see how you reach that conclusion. I'll probably just always play it however the tyranid player wants to against different tyranid players, until and unless it receives a FAQ. It very well may not receive one if the writers think the intent is clear one way or the other.

EDIT: A slight digression, just out of curiosity, how would you write a rule to mean what I think this one does?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/22 19:35:08


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






You wouldn't need a special rule at all, or you would say "at least one" instead of specifying an exact amount.
   
 
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