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I'm trying to figure out if a certain combo is as cheesy as it appears to be.
Well, it's more of an anti-combo.

Is there any reason not to just take a single unit of Sisters of Battle? Just one. Probably Retributors or Dominions, but that's less important.
You get one Act of Faith per turn 5/6ths of the time, regardless of army size. Bringing a single unit means that that one unit will get an Act of Faith effectively always, which in the case of Retributors will just double their firepower. Compared to taking a whole force, where you have to spend extra points to get all of the Acts of Faith that you may want, you basically instead get double move, double shooting, free healing, or double assault on any single unit with zero drawbacks.
Or am I missing something?

Enemy will remove that unit or a bunch of models in it. It's not like they're that hard to pile wounds onto at T3. If you have 2-3 units then the benefit of removing any one of them is much less.

Remember AoF requires the unit to be outside its transport at the start of the turn, which means they'll be outside during the previous enemy shooting phase.

Mavnas wrote:
Enemy will remove that unit or a bunch of models in it. It's not like they're that hard to pile wounds onto at T3. If you have 2-3 units then the benefit of removing any one of them is much less.

Remember AoF requires the unit to be outside its transport at the start of the turn, which means they'll be outside during the previous enemy shooting phase.

Well sure, but you're not taking them in a vacuum, you're taking them alongside the rest of your army. A single unit of Sisters of Battle backing up any other force is going to be more potent than a single Sisters of Battle unit inside a much larger Sisters of Battle force.

(Also: You can technically use the Acts of Faith from inside a transport, it's just that most of them are ineffective. If you stick some Retributors inside a Repressor, though, you can still shoot out just fine.)

Your best shot would be a squad of Retributors with heavy bolters, but the fluff policeman inside me wouldn't like you very much for it.

Can Celestine act of faith herself?

 lambsandlions wrote:
Can Celestine act of faith herself?

Yes, she can. She's also Act of Faith Neutral, though. She gives +1, and will usually consume one every turn - Recovering d3 wounds, or moving 24", or getting extra attacks in are all super potent abilities for a character of her caliber.

 lambsandlions wrote:
Can Celestine act of faith herself?

I believe her ability you use on another unit but then she can use the normal one on herself. That's how I want to use her with a unit of seraphim at least in an imperium force.

How do we handle Celestine actually. @_@ She has her faiths, can jump 12 inches in movement, and she is so hard to kill with all her invul saves and faith healing and she even comes back from the dead on a 2+.

I honestly think she can beat any character. And even if she can't beat someone (tell me which character she can't beat, I am curious to know). with her resurrection and faith healing, she can probably tank that beatstick character for a long time.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Enemy will remove that unit or a bunch of models in it. It's not like they're that hard to pile wounds onto at T3. If you have 2-3 units then the benefit of removing any one of them is much less.

Remember AoF requires the unit to be outside its transport at the start of the turn, which means they'll be outside during the previous enemy shooting phase.

Well sure, but you're not taking them in a vacuum, you're taking them alongside the rest of your army. A single unit of Sisters of Battle backing up any other force is going to be more potent than a single Sisters of Battle unit inside a much larger Sisters of Battle force.

(Also: You can technically use the Acts of Faith from inside a transport, it's just that most of them are ineffective. If you stick some Retributors inside a Repressor, though, you can still shoot out just fine.)

You can't give them acts of faith because they are not on the table.

Firing out of a transport is a special rule, not an inherent quality of the vehicle as it was before. The unit inside still basically doean't exist until it gets out. Same reason it can't overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PUFNSTUF wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
Can Celestine act of faith herself?

I believe her ability you use on another unit but then she can use the normal one on herself. That's how I want to use her with a unit of seraphim at least in an imperium force.

She can use it on herself.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
How do we handle Celestine actually. @_@

Pretty much nothing is going to beat her one on one, she's too tough and has too many attacks with AP -4 and Damage 2 to stand in the ring with for long. Shooting her is tough, because A: she's always going to have Seraphim around her (with rerollable 5++ saves) so she won't be the closest target, B: you'll need to use melta or lascannon to have much effect, and C: she can regenerate 1 Geminae and D3 wounds a turn with Faith (if she feels like it)... So unless you plan on pouring an entire turn of shooting into her she won't die, and if she does she'll get back up on a 2+ and I for one always plan to save my last Command Point for that roll.

That leaves tying her up with a huge mob of gribblies (orks, conscripts, gaunts) and let her wade through a mountain of 5 point guys for a few turns, wasting her potential.

There is one other thing that'll work great at messing with her, but as a SoB player I'm not keen on sharing the idea. It won't kill her, or even hurt her, but it's an inexpensive and elegant way to annoy your opponent and can lock her out of the game for a full turn. Truthfully, it'll work against any big bad pipe hitter, so I'm sure someone else will mention it sooner or later.

Just remember, there is no more hit and run, if you fall back you are basically useless for a turn, and some things can chase faster than you can flee...

Eldenfirefly wrote:
How do we handle Celestine actually. @_@ She has her faiths, can jump 12 inches in movement, and she is so hard to kill with all her invul saves and faith healing and she even comes back from the dead on a 2+.

I honestly think she can beat any character. And even if she can't beat someone (tell me which character she can't beat, I am curious to know). with her resurrection and faith healing, she can probably tank that beatstick character for a long time.

She's pretty darn strong in melee but suffers from 2 things 1, impossible to give her rerolls in a SoB army and 2 she has to be in combat at the start of your turn to get the most out of her.

She can deep strike and she jump packs 12 inches.

Not difficult to get her into combat. In fact, staying out of her way is probably almost impossible unless your whole army also moves 12 inches per turn.

IandI wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
How do we handle Celestine actually. @_@

Pretty much nothing is going to beat her one on one, she's too tough and has too many attacks with AP -4 and Damage 2 to stand in the ring with for long. Shooting her is tough, because A: she's always going to have Seraphim around her (with rerollable 5++ saves) so she won't be the closest target, B: you'll need to use melta or lascannon to have much effect, and C: she can regenerate 1 Geminae and D3 wounds a turn with Faith (if she feels like it)... So unless you plan on pouring an entire turn of shooting into her she won't die, and if she does she'll get back up on a 2+ and I for one always plan to save my last Command Point for that roll.

That leaves tying her up with a huge mob of gribblies (orks, conscripts, gaunts) and let her wade through a mountain of 5 point guys for a few turns, wasting her potential.

There is one other thing that'll work great at messing with her, but as a SoB player I'm not keen on sharing the idea. It won't kill her, or even hurt her, but it's an inexpensive and elegant way to annoy your opponent and can lock her out of the game for a full turn. Truthfully, it'll work against any big bad pipe hitter, so I'm sure someone else will mention it sooner or later.

Just remember, there is no more hit and run, if you fall back you are basically useless for a turn, and some things can chase faster than you can flee...

Rofl, if she's getting caught by anything it's you own fault, she's the fastest non-supersonic, non-teleporting unit in the game. She outruns a heldrake with decent rolling. And besides, with her gemini up she kills something like 12-15 models per turn and can still just run off and flamer something.

Waaaghpower wrote:
(Also: You can technically use the Acts of Faith from inside a transport, it's just that most of them are ineffective. If you stick some Retributors inside a Repressor, though, you can still shoot out just fine.)

Er... Wow, you're right. Only applies to the free AoF, but if we're only talking about one unit, that's pretty good.

I honestly think she can beat any character. And even if she can't beat someone (tell me which character she can't beat, I am curious to know). with her resurrection and faith healing, she can probably tank that beatstick character for a long time.

Everyone can just fall back from combat this edition though, at which point you can just shoot her. She's not more resilient against lascannons than a light vehicle. I mean you have to kill her twice, but still. Most armies have enough firepower to kill two rhinos. She's a lot squishier than she was at the end of 7th now that her own WS doesn't make it harder to hit her, I7 doens't guarantee that she swings first anymore, AP -1 and -2 actually worsen her save, weapons can do more than 1 point of damage, she gets up right away, you can't force wounds onto the geminae if she gets hurt.

Her damage output definitely got buffed from random backfield tactical squad killer to actual threat though, but for her to get her AoF to do melee damage twice the opponent would have to leave something in melee with her at the end of his fight phase. You can... you know, not do that. Firing a heavy flamer twice isn't worth an AoF, so mostly she should be moving 24" or healing d3 wounds (I'm not sure she can advance during the AoF move and still charge?). The geminae have S3 attacks... I don't think you guys appreciate how bad they are at killing MEQ. 3 attacks at 2/3 (hit) * 1/3 (wound * 5/6 (unsaved) = 5/9th of a dead marine each. They're basically expensive ablative wounds for Celestine that can very situationally lead to her coming back infinite times or doom her to get double-killed in the same spot.

I honestly think she can beat any character. And even if she can't beat someone (tell me which character she can't beat, I am curious to know). with her resurrection and faith healing, she can probably tank that beatstick character for a long time.

Robute. a bit less than 50% more expensive than the whole unit, but he's got twice the toughness, better invuln save, more wounds, better army buffs (though Celestine has a better single unit buff in the free AoF), he has the same number of attacks and hits harder. His self-resurrection is less good... but he does have one of those too. I'm sure there's other characters that can beat her in a straight fight at least the first time since 3++ isn't unheard of and S6 and above wounds her on a 2+ whereas she'll be wounding on 3+ and doesn't have built in re-rolls or mortal wounds (which some more combat-focused characters will have).

ERJAK wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Enemy will remove that unit or a bunch of models in it. It's not like they're that hard to pile wounds onto at T3. If you have 2-3 units then the benefit of removing any one of them is much less.

Remember AoF requires the unit to be outside its transport at the start of the turn, which means they'll be outside during the previous enemy shooting phase.

Well sure, but you're not taking them in a vacuum, you're taking them alongside the rest of your army. A single unit of Sisters of Battle backing up any other force is going to be more potent than a single Sisters of Battle unit inside a much larger Sisters of Battle force.

(Also: You can technically use the Acts of Faith from inside a transport, it's just that most of them are ineffective. If you stick some Retributors inside a Repressor, though, you can still shoot out just fine.)

You can't give them acts of faith because they are not on the table.

Firing out of a transport is a special rule, not an inherent quality of the vehicle as it was before. The unit inside still basically doean't exist until it gets out. Same reason it can't overwatch.

Where does it say that you need to be on the table to use an Act of Faith?
EDIT: I'll admit, the Repressor thing wouldn't work since it has to be used in the shooting phase, but you could still heal wounds. Not super useful, but it is a thing that's possible!

Shooting her isn't so straight forward. She has a 4++. Her two body guards have the same 4++ She is a character, so you can't target her with shooting until everyone around her (including her two bodyguards) are dead and she can regen body guards plus her own health too each round too.

Maybe Robute can kill her (seems like it will take a long time). But she moves 12 inches. She will likely only allow herself to fight Robute if she so wishes. On his own, Robute will not catch her.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Shooting her isn't so straight forward. She has a 4++. Her two body guards have the same 4++ She is a character, so you can't target her with shooting until everyone around her (including her two bodyguards) are dead and she can regen body guards plus her own health too each round too.

Maybe Robute can kill her (seems like it will take a long time). But she moves 12 inches. She will likely only allow herself to fight Robute if she so wishes. On his own, Robute will not catch her.

But that's the thing, she's mostly a melee fighter, this means that if you can't shoot her, either the other player has put a few units in harms way or you overextended and put a unit in a place where the enemy army can swarm it (possibly on purpose in the case of some suicide deep striking unit) or both (or it's late game and there's just not a lot of units left). She can't move a bunch after fighting and she can't force you to stay in melee to avoid being shot... anymore :(

Her bodyguards aren't that tough. On average 2 overcharged plasma guns should knock down one (so a 64 point squad of scions could leave her without body guards). Once she takes damage, it doesn't matter if she can bring them back unless she can also heal to full. If she's down even one wound, you have to assign further damage to her per 8th rules,which means it doesn't super matter if the bodyguards come back... in fact it helps you because now if you kill her, she has to stand back up right where she fell instead of anywhere. If she's using her AoF to heal, she's not double moving, and it's still d3 per turn, which may not be enough to prevent you from piling wounds straight to her on subsequent turns.

She'll probably be most effective against armies that dabble in melee and have a few units that are too far forward themselves or at removing things that deep struck into your backfield, but if she charges 24" into your army, there had better be some serious LoS blockers (I'm pretty sure she's taller than most vehicles) or she's going to get shot a lot.

I noticed Celestine doesn't have the rule on her data sheet saying you can only have 1 of her, is she not unique?

If you're going to take Celestine, you effectively get another act of faith, right?

So take another Sororitas unit with her, a unit of seraphim are particularly effective, as they can both cook off faith points and get in combat super early in the game. This frees up Celestine to go after nastier targets while the seraphim sweep up the chaff unit, or the occasional pesky plasma toters.

Soverayne wrote:
I noticed Celestine doesn't have the rule on her data sheet saying you can only have 1 of her, is she not unique?

It's a known oversight. They forgot to put it in.

Mavnas wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Shooting her isn't so straight forward. She has a 4++. Her two body guards have the same 4++ She is a character, so you can't target her with shooting until everyone around her (including her two bodyguards) are dead and she can regen body guards plus her own health too each round too.

Maybe Robute can kill her (seems like it will take a long time). But she moves 12 inches. She will likely only allow herself to fight Robute if she so wishes. On his own, Robute will not catch her.

But that's the thing, she's mostly a melee fighter, this means that if you can't shoot her, either the other player has put a few units in harms way or you overextended and put a unit in a place where the enemy army can swarm it (possibly on purpose in the case of some suicide deep striking unit) or both (or it's late game and there's just not a lot of units left). She can't move a bunch after fighting and she can't force you to stay in melee to avoid being shot... anymore :(

Her bodyguards aren't that tough. On average 2 overcharged plasma guns should knock down one (so a 64 point squad of scions could leave her without body guards). Once she takes damage, it doesn't matter if she can bring them back unless she can also heal to full. If she's down even one wound, you have to assign further damage to her per 8th rules,which means it doesn't super matter if the bodyguards come back... in fact it helps you because now if you kill her, she has to stand back up right where she fell instead of anywhere. If she's using her AoF to heal, she's not double moving, and it's still d3 per turn, which may not be enough to prevent you from piling wounds straight to her on subsequent turns.

She'll probably be most effective against armies that dabble in melee and have a few units that are too far forward themselves or at removing things that deep struck into your backfield, but if she charges 24" into your army, there had better be some serious LoS blockers (I'm pretty sure she's taller than most vehicles) or she's going to get shot a lot.

See, what actually happens is she charges your army with a backup group of seraphim and pulls 2-4 units into CQC that do NOT want to be in CQC, everyone retreats because anything that's in combat with her at the start of the SoB players turn(even dedicated close combat units) Is probably gonna die. She gets shot a bunch, either dies or doesn't and then does it again. By herself, Celestine can neuter shooting armies pretty effectively either by forcing them to isolate themselves or by reaching out and touching you halfway across the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Enemy will remove that unit or a bunch of models in it. It's not like they're that hard to pile wounds onto at T3. If you have 2-3 units then the benefit of removing any one of them is much less.

Remember AoF requires the unit to be outside its transport at the start of the turn, which means they'll be outside during the previous enemy shooting phase.

Well sure, but you're not taking them in a vacuum, you're taking them alongside the rest of your army. A single unit of Sisters of Battle backing up any other force is going to be more potent than a single Sisters of Battle unit inside a much larger Sisters of Battle force.

(Also: You can technically use the Acts of Faith from inside a transport, it's just that most of them are ineffective. If you stick some Retributors inside a Repressor, though, you can still shoot out just fine.)

You can't give them acts of faith because they are not on the table.

Firing out of a transport is a special rule, not an inherent quality of the vehicle as it was before. The unit inside still basically doean't exist until it gets out. Same reason it can't overwatch.

Where does it say that you need to be on the table to use an Act of Faith?
EDIT: I'll admit, the Repressor thing wouldn't work since it has to be used in the shooting phase, but you could still heal wounds. Not super useful, but it is a thing that's possible!

...Everywhere. It says you have to be on the table everywhere. You can't AoF things in deepstrike reserve or in other peoples games either BTW.

The transport rules specifically call out that 'Cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way while embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect units within a certain range [don't work].