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So like everyone else, my friends and I have been pouring over the new rules.

The general consensus is that much has been improved, but the game is still operating on two axis- either dealing damage or mitigating it. That is to say that every interaction with your opponent is an attempt to do one one of those two things. Which is fine, those things are necessary for any wargame, but they are rather shallow interactions. There's no skill or finesse in rolling to hit, wounds or save, nor any decision or strategy. Which again is fine in and of itself, but we are finding it lacking.

Comparisons were made to our all time favourite game, Blood Bowl, where there are several layers to actions taken by players. For example in BB, one might move a model to a certain place to assist with a later action, to deny ground or exert pressure over a ball- all tactical choices that don't include actually touching the ball or hitting an opponent. Likewise when making a block, positioning matters greatly, as does the possibility of turnover. And of course once a block is made, one does not automatically want to knock someone down- sometime re positioning them (and yourself) is more tactical. Of course rerolls are present too, as well as the underlying mechanic of a passing game rather than a blocking one. This is lacking in 40k, where every interaction carries no greater depth than how many wounds are inflicted overall.

But what 40k really seems to lack is any direct player vs player interaction. All interaction is instead by proxy through the models, and then abstracted into dice. During a given turn one player is active while the other is largely passive, reduced to making saves and post charge melee attacks.

Another favorite game of ours was Epic, 2nd Ed. It had an element that to this day remains one of the best I've ever seen, that being order tokens. One of the reasons we like them is that placing orders has nothing to do with your unit stats or abilities- it comes down to you as a general and how well you can anticipate your opponents tactics. The value of this in a strategy game should be obvious- it allows a player to directly benefit from their own ability as a general rather than anything in a codex.

After looking over the 40k rules, we thought it'd be relatively simple to apply the old order tokens to the game with some modification to the turn sequence. We're thinking Orders, Movement, Psychic, Shooting (which is where First Fire/Overwatch would be done), Charge, Fight and Morale. With the added caveats that models who are charging or Advancing (as per 40k, not Epic) move first, then those on Epic Advance (clearly terminology would need adjustment). As per Epic, models on First Fire can shoot at enemies charging them (with no penalty). In the shooting phase, models on First Fire go first (thus giving them an edge against Falling Back shooters) and a chance to actually act as covering fire for their allies.

Haven't put a ton of thought into it, but it seems like it has potential and it does away with IGOUGO, which is a major flaw in our book. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

@kojiro.
I totally agree with you.

A while back we tried a hybrid 40k 2nd ed game turn , ( tactical loading in the movement phase).With added orders style system from Epic Space Marine.

To make things much easier we used movement values.And simply let psychic abilities be activated in the relevant phase.(Like 3rd to 5th ed.)

The orders were..
Fire support.Unit remains stationary but fires at full effect.(May fire 'move or shoot' weapons.)
The unit fires at the start of the Shooting phase. (They may fire at units charging them without penalty.)

Advance.
The unit may move up to its movement value , in the movement phase.(After all units on Charge orders have moved.)
And fire 'move and fire' weapons in the shooting phase.(After all units on Fire Support orders have taken all their shots,)

Charge
The unit may move up to double its movement phase.(At the start of the Movement phase.)
This is the ONLY way a unit may launch an assault by Charging into base to base /hull contact with an enemy unit.A unit on Charge orders may not make ANY ranged attacks at all.

Fall back .
The unit must move between its movement value and double its movement AWAY FROM ALL ENEMY UNITS , and count as reformed/in good order next game turn.

The game turn looked like this..

Command phase .
Place orders counters face down.
Request off table support.(Reserves artillery .air strikes.)

Movement phase.
1)Players alternate moving units on Charge orders.

2)Players alternate moving units on Advance orders.

3)Players alternate moving units on Fallback orders.

Shooting phase.
1)Players alternate firing with units on Fire Support orders .

2)Players alternate firing with units on Advance orders.

Assault phase
Players resolve assaults between units in base to base /hull contact.

End of game turn phase.


Is this the sort of thing you were thinking of?
I will discuss things in a bit more detail if you are interested?

I have a few thoughts on how this could work very well. I need to mull it over first and I will post a bigger more in depth contribution tonight.

That being said, my first concern is gunlines like the tau. If they can remain stationary and shoot at full power while also shooting first.... Well... Why would they do much else?

And how would you incorporate deepstrikers into this?

Lanrak wrote:
@kojiro.
I totally agree with you.

This pleases me greatly

A while back we tried a hybrid 40k 2nd ed game turn , ( tactical loading in the movement phase).With added orders style system from Epic Space Marine.

That's basically exactly what I wanted to do for 8th. The trick is of course integrating it without breaking it.

To make things much easier we used movement values.And simply let psychic abilities be activated in the relevant phase.(Like 3rd to 5th ed.)

Well, we have movement values back now, so that's taken care of. I think for the psychic phase we should- for now at least- leave it as it's own entity, lest we have to look at rewriting the actual powers. I figure the less we tamper the easier it'll integrate (famous last design words).

The orders were..
Fire support.Unit remains stationary but fires at full effect.(May fire 'move or shoot' weapons.)
The unit fires at the start of the Shooting phase. (They may fire at units charging them without penalty.)

Advance.
The unit may move up to its movement value , in the movement phase.(After all units on Charge orders have moved.)
And fire 'move and fire' weapons in the shooting phase.(After all units on Fire Support orders have taken all their shots,)

Charge
The unit may move up to double its movement phase.(At the start of the Movement phase.)
This is the ONLY way a unit may launch an assault by Charging into base to base /hull contact with an enemy unit.A unit on Charge orders may not make ANY ranged attacks at all.

Fall back .
The unit must move between its movement value and double its movement AWAY FROM ALL ENEMY UNITS , and count as reformed/in good order next game turn.

The game turn looked like this..

Command phase .
Place orders counters face down.
Request off table support.(Reserves artillery .air strikes.)

Movement phase.
1)Players alternate moving units on Charge orders.

2)Players alternate moving units on Advance orders.

3)Players alternate moving units on Fallback orders.

Shooting phase.
1)Players alternate firing with units on Fire Support orders .

2)Players alternate firing with units on Advance orders.

Assault phase
Players resolve assaults between units in base to base /hull contact.

End of game turn phase.

That's pretty much it, but for nutting out specifics or rule interactions.

Is this the sort of thing you were thinking of?
I will discuss things in a bit more detail if you are interested?

I would very much like to discuss this. I've got a bit on today but I'll try and put down my version of the above and we can compare and contrast.

Lance845 wrote:That being said, my first concern is gunlines like the tau. If they can remain stationary and shoot at full power while also shooting first.... Well... Why would they do much else?

On the face of it, I'd suggest something like allowing charging units to to fire at their charge targets simultaneously with those shooting their attacker- but with restrictions like 'only with Assault weapons or pistols'. The other way to solve the issue is to have some number objectives on the board that are specific to each army but on alternate board halves. This would reward interaction and punish simplistic one trick ponies that only stand and shoot (because let's be honest, not moving and just shooting is far from tactical). That way an army could just go 'First Fire' and be very resistant to charges, but they're not going to project any board presence. The other army will undoubtedly take some incoming fire (earlier) than their opponent but they can still shoot back and they can actually capture objectives. That's important to remember- First Fire (or whatever we call it) only gives you an earlier opportunity to shoot one unit before the enemy FF units can return fire. It does protect you from being charged but again, it costs you board presence. And honestly you should be punished for charging into the teeth of enemy guns. And it's still far less alpha strike than the entire enemy army shooting at your before your turn.



More later.

I think you misunderstood.

1) the objectives thing works for a specific game type. But one of the great things about 40k is the variety of missions. The core mechanics should not enhance standing still and shooting.

2) if the fire support order allows the unit to shoot first in the shooting phase, while having some of the best guns for range, and shoot charging units. Then what encourages tau, excluding specific missions, from doing anything else?

 Lance845 wrote:
I think you misunderstood.

1) the objectives thing works for a specific game type. But one of the great things about 40k is the variety of missions. The core mechanics should not enhance standing still and shooting.

I agree we'd need to rethink some stuff, which could include force org for certain missions. After all, one would think that an army composition would be made with the mission in mind. I agree we absolutely don't want to incentivise merely standing and shooting. There will be a time for it but there should be a time for every order.

 Lance845 wrote:
2) if the fire support order allows the unit to shoot first in the shooting phase, while having some of the best guns for range, and shoot charging units. Then what encourages tau, excluding specific missions, from doing anything else?

Well they can only shoot at the charging unit, which might seem all well and great until you consider that perhaps you don't want your broadsides firing at incoming stormboyz or assault marines. Granted I'm thinking in Epic terms here, where charge moves are done before firing, which I think may have been omitted. But either way, if terrain is thick enough, there's nothing that necessitates a unit on Charge orders from actually charging.

It does depend on how we actually do it too. For example, in Epic you don't have a Combat Phase which goes First Fire => Close Combat => Advancing Fire. Which means your FF units may hurt the unit charging them (or even wipe them out) but will then be vulnerable to all the Advance Fire. And that'll be after they weather the assault from any survivors of the charge. In short it will become about pressuring FF units with non ideal, 'save yourself' targets rather than the big guns you have, which you'll be able to actually bring up and maneuver. Of course, this relies on selective pressure and anticipation of enemy orders. If you sense you're going to be out maneuvered in an area, go onto Fall Back orders and get the hell out of there- let your opponent then curse that his assault unit has no one to hit and his advancing heavy guns won't get their ideal target. You'll lose ground but, if the game is balanced, you've thwarted two units with one and somewhere on the table you'll have tactical supremacy.

I mean, it all needs work, no doubt. Each order is going to have trade offs if we do it right.

I definitely enjoy the idea of making "movement" and multi-layered interactions more relevant in 40k. I feel that the changes to 8th (defender chooses all casualties, cover is "all or nothing", pile-in is optional, tank shock is dead, restricting what units can Reserve, etc), have ultimately reduced the game to "statistical superiority" even moreso than previous editions.

I definitely agree the game needs more "counter-options" in general, and love the Blood Bowl examples you gave. Several things I've tried experimenting with in the past include:
-An alternating activation system where each faction gets a number of "Command Points" per turn equal to their Strategy Rating. A unit may take 2 actions per turn: Advance, Engage, or Defend. More details at: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/729773.page but the idea is to fine-tune the actions to be more atomic without needing Overwatch to be a specific action. I think I'm going to just abstract it to "Storm", "Engage", and "Secure", where the tradeoff is between speed or defense!
-Reworking the 7e Psyker System, so Warp Charge/Denial isn't "all or nothing", but power effects are based on successes. I also added a class of Psychic Powers called "Resonance Powers" (akin to "Trap Cards") which could be cast "out-of-activation" if certain triggers were met.

Ok... Posting this from my phone. Will probably have some auto correct feth ups.

Here is how I think this would work best. Kind of a combination of what I think you are proposing so far and x-wing.

Turn phases

1) issue orders - Order tokens are placed next to units face down.

2)activate orders - Order tokens are all revealed. The player with the least number of units has initiative and activates a unit first at each initiative step. Players alternate activating units acording to initiative values on the orders themselves. Lower initiative values go first. Higher go last.

3) moral. - After all units have been activated you do moral. Just like now.

Orders - each order follows the basic structure of the game now. Move, psychic, shoot, charge, fight. The individual orders both establish a activation order and adjust permissions for the individual units for what they can do in each "phase".

Supporting Fire!: initiative 3. the unit may not move. The unit may manifest psychic powers if able. The unit may shoot. If a unit within 12" of a unit issued the fire support order is the target of a charge the fire support unit may over watch by making its shooting attack early. A unit that fires overwatch may not shoot again later that turn. (Note: Greater Good for tau functions the same way. Units within x inches of the fire support unit that is shooting overwatch may also fire overwatch, but doing so prevents them from shooting later).

Assault!: initiative 1. The unit may move and advance. The unit may manifest psychic powers if able. The unit may shoot as though the unit advanced even if it didn't. The unit may charge.

Advance!: initiative 2. the unit may move and advance. The unit may manifest psychic powers if able. The unit may shoot. The unit may not charge.

Fall back!: initiative 1. the unit must end it's move farther away from all enemy models than when it started it's move. The unit may not advance. The unit may manifest psychic powers if able. The unit may shoot but with a -1 to hit. The unit may not charge.

Reserve Orders

Hold!: initiative 0. the unit stays in reserves.

Deploy!: initiative 0. the unit deploys as per their unit rules. The unit may not move or advance but counts as though it moved. The unit may manifest psychic powers if able. The unit may shoot. The unit may charge.

Transport Orders - units embarked inside a transport may be issued the hold! Order as above or the disembark order below. If a unit embarked upon a transport is able to shoot out of the transport they may do so at the same time as the transport.

Disembark! initiative 0. The unit disembarks as per normal rules. The unit may move and advance but counts as having moved even if it did not. The unit may attempt to manifest psychic powers. The unit may shoot. The unit may charge.



I think that's functional. I think it covers all the things in the game... Might need some tweets. Obviously needs testing.

Notes: this actually front loads the turn with assaults. Combats will all be resolved by the end of initiative 1.

Fall back moves work like they do now and are separate from the fall back! Order. If you get charged and you are issued an order that allows movement you may follow all the actions and restrictions in 8th ed for falling back from melee.

Fire support (overwatch) is a direct counter to charge. But it also forces you to shoot last if you or your other units do not get assaulted. It could be a big risk and feint assaults (bringing assault units into position and then not charging with them) can leave units vulnerable to early faster initiative shooting.

I like much of that, but I think you're over complicating it with the initiative values.

One thing I want to get rid of is Overwatch. I think First Fire (or whatever the equivalent is) serves the same purpose largely. Perhaps you could keep it as 'emergency' fire.

This does also lead to potential deep interactions regarding orders too. For example, imagine a 'Cloud Mind' spell that removed an order token in the psychic phase? We'd need to come up with what a unit can do with no orders (perhaps move OR shoot only). We could also have things oh leaders like 'After orders are revealed, one unit within X" of this model may change their orders to Y". You cold even flavour it, so factions could emphasise their personalities (Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors can swap to First Fire orders if they're in a fortification for example), or units could have rules that kicked in (Khorne berserkers can always Charge but never First Fire or something like that). Hell, you could even have a psychic power that let models within X" change their orders (seems appropriately Eldar) or one that randomised orders on enemies (rather Tzeentch like). You could have things like tank shock stripping orders (I know what you said sir but TANK!). That appeals to me at least.

I think one of the things that needs to be sorted is the order of combat (melee and shooting) and charging. The split that currently exists I don't know if it's tenable. I really want to work on it but time is just pressing atm.

Please keep up the ideas though! I think we can make something neat with all this

 Kojiro wrote:
I like much of that, but I think you're over complicating it with the initiative values.

One thing I want to get rid of is Overwatch. I think First Fire (or whatever the equivalent is) serves the same purpose largely. Perhaps you could keep it as 'emergency' fire.

This does also lead to potential deep interactions regarding orders too. For example, imagine a 'Cloud Mind' spell that removed an order token in the psychic phase? We'd need to come up with what a unit can do with no orders (perhaps move OR shoot only). We could also have things oh leaders like 'After orders are revealed, one unit within X" of this model may change their orders to Y". You cold even flavour it, so factions could emphasise their personalities (Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors can swap to First Fire orders if they're in a fortification for example), or units could have rules that kicked in (Khorne berserkers can always Charge but never First Fire or something like that). Hell, you could even have a psychic power that let models within X" change their orders (seems appropriately Eldar) or one that randomised orders on enemies (rather Tzeentch like). You could have things like tank shock stripping orders (I know what you said sir but TANK!). That appeals to me at least.

I think one of the things that needs to be sorted is the order of combat (melee and shooting) and charging. The split that currently exists I don't know if it's tenable. I really want to work on it but time is just pressing atm.

Please keep up the ideas though! I think we can make something neat with all this

I don't think the initiative values complicate it. I think it streamlines it by establishing a clear order of operations. I picture the tokens being color coded to the initiative steps. Blue step 0. Green 1. Orange 2. Red 3. Once all the tokens are flipped you can easily work your way through the blues till all are done, greens etc etc... Its a quick and easy visual que that speeds up game play.

I don't know what first fire is. So I can't make any comparison for it. But I can say that a counter to assault is needed. The idea that the slowest, acting last, shooting can also activate to help cover your other units is a incredibly tactical option with risks and rewards. Overwatch van, and should, add a lot of tactical depth.

Now the rest of what you wrote here... THAT is getting complicated. You want to modify how units actually function and what options they have. Develops new psychic powers? The inevitable reposting of every unit that entails? That way lies madness. Good luck with that.

Hi Folks.
The current game play in 40k makes shooting overly effective.
Removing the to hit modifiers in 3rd ed, and not replacing them with anything was the route cause of this issue .

However allowing units to move out of LOS/into cover , (if they want to, ) before the shooting starts. Helps mitigate the effectiveness of shooting armies.

Adding a simple suppression mechanic also allows shooting to be effective without having to kill loads of stuff.(And an effective counter to Fire Support orders.)

(EG The simple suppression mechanic we used.(Where all units had an Armour value and a Toughness.)..A failed armour save causes the model to be suppressed.If over half the models in the unit are suppressed the unit becomes suppressed.

We used Suppression counter to replace the order counter, and the Suppressed unit counting as on 'Advance' orders but only being able to move OR shoot.)

As only shooting can cause suppression.Putting a unit on Fire Support orders , risks the unit watching enemy units move in to advantageous positions, and then being suppressed or smoked , and unable to fire effectively.

I thought using the same action phases in the same order as the current game , moving then shooting then assault.
With priority on more decIsive actions.Would make an easier transition to alternating unit activation.
(Compared to having to use separate additional initiative or activation point systems. )


The problem is although 8th edition 40k has cut out a lot of the bloat accrued over 19 years of poor rules writing.It has not actually addressed a lot of the core issues that prevented a well defined concise war game rule set to be developed for 40k.

(The lack of a reasonable scale of results and level of player interaction are the 2 most obvious issues left unaddressed.)

I prefer straight forward rules that allows complex game play .(Being old and forgetful . )