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Would someone be able to give a quick rundown of the pros and cons of each Leman Russ varient? And what hull/sponson weapon configurations are most effective?

I love the look of the Vanquisher with it's long gun, but in gaming terms it looks like it should be limit d to tank commanders and Pask, as on a 4+ to hit its single shot gun would miss too much on non HQ tanks.

Thanks

This site did a rundown on the math for each of the turret weapons: http://elite40k.blogspot.ca/2017/06/analysis-astra-militarum-in-8th-ed-russ.html

Sadly, it looks like most variants of the Russ are gonna be junk this edition. The two best variants by far are the Demolisher and the Punisher, and all variants should always be run with Pask or a tank commander to help with their middling ballistic skill. The standard LRBT is an okay all-rounder and actually outperforms the Vanquisher (which is by far the worst variant) at it's intended role of tank hunting. Kit the Punisher for infantry hunting with heavy bolters all around, and kit the Demolisher for tank/MC hunting with a lascannon & multi-meltas.

Thanks mate, that's interesting reading. Another question then, is it acceptable to use the Vanquisher gun as a standard battle cannon? I just like how the model looks.

Depends on who you're playing with. I wouldn't have a problem with it, and in a game with friends or a pick-up game at a store I don't think many people would have a problem with it (as long as all your Vanquishers count as Battle Tanks, ie. don't have one Vanquisher be a Battle Tank while another is still a Vanquisher). If you're planning on playing tournaments at some point, I'd stick to building it as a Battle Tank though, as most tournaments tend to pretty strictly enforce WYSIWYG.

If you're bringing a lr to a tournament, you're allready at a disadvantage, so why not play it as a vanquisher if you're forced to? It's fine to play them as any other cannon variant in friendly games. I like the look of vanquisher too. It resembles the Joseph Stalin tank that looked badass.

 koooaei wrote:
If you're bringing a lr to a tournament, you're allready at a disadvantage, so why not play it as a vanquisher if you're forced to? It's fine to play them as any other cannon variant in friendly games. I like the look of vanquisher too. It resembles the Joseph Stalin tank that looked badass.

Spoiler:

I mean, the Vanquisher is bad at its role and worse at dealing with non-vehicles? It does an average of .5 * .5 * 5/6 * 4.5 = .9375 damage to a T8 3+ vehicle. To put that into context, that's worse than a single lascannon. OK, let me take that back. It can take a single lascannon, more than doubling its damage output... Some of the other variants are inefficient, but not outright bad.

I know. It's the worst. But it's not that much worse in the overall picture to justify you not taking the model you like.

Take the Vanquisher cannon for example. It will land an average of .5 hits, .25 wounds against T8, which is what you are taking it to damage. Against a 3+ (which is the vehicle standard), it will wound just over 1 out of 5 shots (or about once a game) and do a MAX of 6 points of damage. Against a Knight or a Landraider, you're looking at 1 out of 6 shots doing damage. Even if you roll high on the damage roll you are barely making a dent with what is supposed to be the premier anti-armor weapon the Guard have. That doesn't make any sense. Someone couldn't have seriously tested that out and decided that was fine.

The Vanquisher is very disappointing so I dropped it from my Cadian list early on. I also tried Pask in a Plasma Executioner with plasma sponsons for several games. It was OK but not great. The best option for me is Pask in a Punisher with heavy bolter sponsons and a lascannon. I am tempted to pair him on the table with a tank commander in a similar kitted Punisher.

I don't agree that Leman Russ are bad... yet.

I'd run Pask with a punisher, lascannon and melta sponsons. Even on the move he's accurate enough to justify those costs, and as a character he could well survive a game. Use his mobility to stay at max range whenever possible.

A basic LR is best for sitting back, mostly still. The gun is pretty cheap and reasonably effective against all targets, with a 72" range. Stick heavy bolters and a lascannon on it. Go mad and put plasma cannons on the side if you want, especially if you've got a commander ordering it to reroll 1s.

Don't put plasma sponsons on a tank you expect to move a lot. It will hurt itself on 1s and 2s, and won't be able to reroll the 2s!

Demolishers and punishers have to move, so their sponsons will suffer. These are prime candidates for heavy flamer sponsons, or no sponsons at all. A demolisher with 3 heavy flamers is quite an interesting option - though heavy flamers are pretty expensive now. A commander in either of these could opt for melta sponsons and a flamer on the front. Or anything really.

And as the table shows, the other variants are basically worthless. A potential exception to this is the FW annihilator, with the twin lascannon. In the new rules that's a fairly viable option, and basically twice as good as a vanquisher. One of those would again be a decent option for getting plasma sponsons, if you had an officer to order it around.

No talk of Conquerors or Stygis Vanquishers? They're basically straight upgrades on the BT and Vanquisher.
Conqueror has a little bit shorter ranged battlecannon, but comes with a coaxial stormbolter, so within 24" you can reroll those blast hits.
Stygis also gets a coaxial, and it can also boost its hit roll by 1 if it doesnt move. Pretty good chance of hitting it's target now.

Stygies vanquisher is still a vanquisher, so still bad.

what if i run Pask with a demolisher anyone? Seems like the gun that the 2+ to hit gives the most worth, also spending some command points to reroll the D3 could be big if you want to one shot something.

Was thinking of going all in with multi meltas and lascannnon so he can potentially one shot most modells in the game (although close to 300pts!).

What's wrong with a lascannon, 2 X multimelta vanquisher?

Martel732 wrote:
What's wrong with a lascannon, 2 X multimelta vanquisher?

It's 217 points to deal an average of 3.45 wounds per turn to an enemy tank, assuming you're sitting still within 24". If it shoots under those conditions for nearly an entire game without being crippled or destroyed, it will have killed a single Leman Russ.
As a Tank Commander you add another 35 points to increase this to a whopping 4.6 wounds.

Meanwhile a 165 point Lascannon Devastator squad has a 44% chance of reducing your BS and thus damage output in a single turn. Basically you're a very big and very expensive target that still doesn't deliver all that much damage. In fact you're better off running the same weapons on a Demolisher, which will net you 4.67 wounds per turn for the HS version and 6.22 for the TC.

EDIT: Forgot about the 2D6 pick highest for the Vanquisher gun, but not going to do the math again. Real results will be slightly better, as most damage in these calculations comes from the other weapons.

You would be better just shooting a normal LR rather than a Vanquisher.

It only does D3 damage and has less AP, but you get D6 shots rather than just 1, so you get between 1-18 damage compared to a Vanquishers 1-6 damage per turn. Plus you are more likely to hit at least once, where if you miss with a Vanquisher you do 0 damage.

Can someone good at mathhammer compare a battle cannon to a Vanquisher cannon?

I've played a couple of games with the standard Leman Russ and I like it well enough. I take a Tank Commander and either one or two tanks for him to order around.

I like heavy bolters best as sponsons, as they're cheap so you don't lose out on much if you move the tank and incur the -1 to hit penalty. However, there's definitely a place for multi-melta or plasma cannon sponsons on Tank Commander if you don't plan on moving him, or on the one tank that will be receiving orders. The plasma cannon is obviously good for this as you can reroll the 1s to hit and avoid overheating.

The hull weapon is usually a lascannon for me, but the heavy bolter is nice a cheap. If I take heavy flamers I like to go all-out and take three of them, because at that point the heavy flamers are the point of the tank. Usually I get my flamers from Chimeras and Hellhounds, but if you're lacking those weapon mounts then giving a Russ flamers everywhere is a nice touch.

Basically, if I'm taking a lot (3+) of tanks I keep them as cheap as possible so I can afford as many as possible. That means mostly heavy bolters for secondary weapons. If I'm only taking one or two tanks then I'll equip them to fulfill a special role or fill a gap in my army, like a flamers or anti-tank. Finally, if I'm taking a Tank Commander then I take high value weapons that will maximize his abilities.

I love this - can you pleasr expand on the build options and their role/uses for hull mounted and sponsor heavy weapons

I am really interested to hear about the load outs and their comparitive uses and their benifits and pit falls

In 8th edition only 3 leman russ variamts are useful: punisher, demolisher and vanilla lrbt. The rest are mediocre in comparison at best according to mathammer. But no one has gone into detail about hull mounted and sponsor weapons - do tell more please

I like to think of myself as a pretty good player but I've only played, like, half a dozen games of 8th edition so take my experience with a grain of salt. Here are my opinions on sponson and hull weapons:

Flamer: They're good weapons but somewhat expensive so I like to get maximum value out of them. I ordinarily don't take them on Russes because there are only so many good places on the table for a short-ranged weapon like flamers and I usually have a full quota of flamers on my Chimeras and Hellhounds. However, if you don't have a lot of flamers there's nothing wrong (and everything right!) with sticking three flamers on a short-ranged tank like a Punisher or Demolisher and using it to spearhead an assault. It has a ferocious overwatch and it will happily grind down any unit that is too weak to really threaten it in melee, first moving up to flame the target, then shooting overwatch, then falling back and firing off overwatch again. This can also work if you need a point defense tank to defend a vulnerable flank or static units like artillery from assault. If the enemy gets close you can rumble in with the flamer tank to chase him off or tie him down; a long-range gun like a standard Russ might be better in this roll, as it can lob shots downfield if the enemy proves to be to chicken to close.

Heavy Bolters: These are great because they are cheap; -1 AP is also pretty great in large numbers. This is my default sponson and hull weapon, and I only swap them out if I have a specific need or points to burn.

Lascannon: If I have the points I give one to my Tank Commander, as he typically wants to stay still to get maximum use out of his BS. I'm not sure I would ever stick it on a lone Russ that doesn't have a Commander to support it as BS 4+ is a bit spotty, unless I was taking that Russ specifically to fulfill an anti-tank role.

Multi-melta: Much like the Lascannon these are best either on a Commander or a Russ supported by the commander, as they're too expensive to stick on a less-accurate tank that's going to be moving around and be even less accurate as a result. They're actually pretty darn good guns, though, with a fierce AP and decent damage even at long range (well, the multi-melta equivalent of long range!).

Plasma Cannon: Good for tanks that won't be moving much and have some way to reroll 1s. A standard Leman Russ that sits next to a Tank Commander is the most obvious choice, but you could stick some other character that provides rerolls nearby instead. It's okay on a Tank Commander due to his better BS but he can't order himself to reroll 1s so you'll only fire on high strength in emergency situations.

No sponsons: Definitely a valid option if you are trying to save points. However, the Russ is a fairly durable platform so I think it's best to give it at least some heavy bolters as you're almost certainly going to get some use out of them so there's something of an opportunity cost in not taking advantage of every heavy weapon slot you have.

Add-on weapons: I play Steel Legion so I don't have copula-mounted weapons as it strikes me as out of character for the army. However, I do take lots of hunter-killer missiles as a first turn volley of a dozen missiles can really put the hurt on something. Finding the 60-odd points to do this is pretty easy and it strikes me as one of the best ways to spend spare points.

Very cool, thabk you for this!!