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Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

So, with 40k, it's no question that this game has an absolutely bonkers level of variety in lists and units, something over 400 if I remember hearing it right. This has had an affect on tournament play where trying to make a true take all comers list is all but impossible, enforcing a "rock paper scissors" type of meta where gimmick lists can flourish. Here was just a random idea I had the other day as I sat in the store and listened to a magic tournament going on. I know some (lets be honest, most ) probably won't care for this kind of idea but hey, like I said it's a random idea. It isn't perfect and I'm sure some of the more talented among the community could polish this up far better than I. You can skip to the bottom for a TL;DR

Step 1: Sideboards
Implementing a "side board" for a player's army, with say a 1/4 of the main points allotment in it. So for say a 1000pt tournament, you're fielding a 1000pt "main" body and have a 250pt sideboard off to the side. At the start of the game, before you roll missions or anything like that, you get a quick glance at your opponent's main army and sideboard, then determine what you're going to bring. You both then set up your armies, go with the mission, etc. At deployment, you will have a 1000pt army on the table, either your 1000pt main force, a 1000pt list with 250pts subbed out for the sideboard, or a mix inbetween.

Why on earth would one want to do this?

Well, think about trying to build a true take all comers list. What do you have that will beat the all of the following in a single list

1. Knight spam
2. Hordes
3. Flyer spam
4. Deathstars
5. Pysker spam
6. Turn 1 assaulting armies
7. Gunlines
8. Deepstriking alpha strikes (stormtroopers)
9. Superheavies

etc. etc. we all know the drill here. Now, most codexes have tools to beat these things, indeed most have tools made to hard counter these kind of things. And yet, if you bring some of these tools, you will be punished if their specific target doesn't show up. For example, taking AAA when the opponent brings 0 flyers, or bringing a mass of anti armor weapons when the opponent fields hordes. As a result, players are often discouraged from taking these kinds of specialized units as they risk actively hurting their army. This in turn leaves the army vulnerable to that specific type should they encounter it, encouraging other players to go all in with a certain type. Having a sideboard would allow you to throw in a few tools to deal with things that your main list has an natural weakness to. This cuts down on games that are over before they even begin, ensuring you actually play the game and have a chance. For example, take the conscript spam everyone is scared of. A natural counter is to bring snipers to take out the commissars and officers. However, said snipers aren't near as useful in most other situations, so you throw them in your sideboard for the odd horde player that pops up.

Now, I know the next question coming up.

"Matched play is already finicky enough with points as is, you really expect us to swap units out with matched points in a timed format when many units end in odd numbers and individual wargear pts are all over the place?"

And to that I say nope, because I'd recommend just using power points for it. Which leads us to point 2

Step 2: There might actually be a point to Power Points
Think about it, we've all seen the matched points system, it's not like it's any more balanced or unbalanced than power points right now. However, unlike the matched points system where we're seeing 1500-2000pts with units often tallying up to totals like 257 or 161pts, power points would be in the 75-100 area, making math far simpler and less granular. Not only does the units base cost become much easier to calculate, individual wargear no longer needs to be factored for, this allows for rapid math on the spot to determine what needs to be swapped out. It will be far faster to just swap out 25 powerpoints worth of units than it will say 500pts of units. This makes what could be a very agonizing math equation of doing your sideboard down to something far more simple that should take all of a minute or two.

There is a final ability that power points would allow in tournament play, specifically with the idea of sideboards. I'm not as particularly married to this idea as it favors some armies more than others possibly, but I think it could have merit.

Step: 3 Power Points allow each unit to essentially have a sideboard of its own
This is hard to explain without posting some basic lists, so I'm going to spoil a couple and show what I mean. These are incredibly basic lists to just get my point across, bear with me

As it sits right now, units must buy individual wargear which they are then stuck with throughout the tournament. So take this list for example, it would be stuck with it's meltas and lascannons through the whole tournament, regardless of whether or not they actually help the list. This list is heavily specialized against tanks, but lacks anti horde weaponry. This means that should you encounter a horde player, you're at a disadvantage

Spoiler:

IG basic platoon
Company Commander - Shotgun/chainsword 30pts

Commissar - Boltgun 31pts

Infantry squad - Meltagun/Lascannon 84pts

Infantry squad - Meltagun/Lascannon 84pts

Infantry squad - Meltagun/Lascannon 84pts

etc.


With power points, your equipment doesn't matter for costs, so you can essentially do the following and determine what your list actually is before the game. For example, your sheet you hand to the TO at the start would be this
Spoiler:

IG basic platoon

Company Commander 3PP

Commissar 2pp

Infantry Squad 3PP

Infantry Squad 3PP

Infantry Squad 3PP

etc.

Then, once you are matched with your opponent, you fill in some dots showing what they're taking and sub in the models as appropriate. Which would look like this
Spoiler:

IG basic platoon

Company Commander 3PP [X] Plasma Pistol [X] Power Axe

Commissar 2PP [X] Plasma Pistol [X] Power Axe

Infantry Squad 3pp [X] Flamer [X] Mortar

Infantry Squad 3pp [X] Flamer [X] Mortar

Infantry Squad 3pp [X] Flamer [X] Mortar

etc. Obviously I'm omitting a ton of options that wouldn't be circled in but you get the idea.


"But Mr.Moustaffa! That amount of precision would be insane in a 2000pt tournament! Do you have any idea how long it would take me to X all my Y?"

Yes, yes I do helpful poster, which brings me to the final point

Step 4: This allows for much smaller tournaments
Think about it, why do we see tournaments that require such large armies? Simply put thats about the area most of the more elite armies can actually afford their TAC equipment. Any lower and armies like space marines would struggle to deal with many of the threats we see on the average tournament table.

But what if you had the ability to swap out a 1/4 of your army at the start of the game to help deal with a force that has some sort of gimmick? Would you really need as big of a list for your tournament? After all, if you know of a certain weakness or list you would struggle against that only shows up once in a while, you can simply throw an answer to that in your sideboard. By cutting down the size of the lists necessary for a proper tournament, you can cut down the amount of models on the table, the amount of abilities that need to be rolled for, the amount of shots that need to be made, etc. etc. This allows for more games, which allows for a fairer tournament, as the more games you get in the, the more cuts you can get in, leading to a far more competitive event.

Now, I'm no TO or anything like that, so of course the exact values I put down may not be the perfect fit, but you get the idea. I honestly believe that if an idea like this were properly implemented, you could cut a serious chunk out of the points people need to play an event while still allowing a lot of tactical and strategic choices as well as forcing players to bring more varied lists.


I'll wrap it up here, I'm honestly going to be surprised if many read through that wall of text, so if you did congrats, you earned 1 standard militarum grade cookie shaped nutrient bar. All the looks of a cookie with none of that pesky flavor

TL;DR
1.Sideboards allow for a variety in lists that allows for flexibility in dealing with the massive variety of units possible in this game
2.Power Points would allow sideboards to be quickly added up and units quickly replaced with units of similar price
3.(potential) Power Points can allow every unit a degree of flexibility per game, giving a reason to bring things like tactical squads, as they can bring anti tank weapons one game and anti horde the next, giving alternatives to hyper specialized units that tourneys tend to favor
4.Sideboards allow the size of the average tournament game to be decreased as you no longer have to cram all the tools into the main list, some can simply sit in the sideboard for when they are needed in that 1 out of 6 games. This could potentially allow for something as drastic as dropping the standard from 2000pts (100PL) to say 1500pts (75PL)

Obviously the exact math is probably a bit off, I'm just spitballing here, thanks for reading.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/29 06:32:18


'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





This is a really good idea. Thank you.
The only reason I don't do tournaments is because of how specialised my army's are. I will stomp on certain things and bounce off others.
This would be amazing
   
Made in dk
Fresh-Faced New User




Personally I believe that sideboarding would lead to EVEN MORE spammy lists. The sideboard makes it almost risk-free to run a one-trick-pony list.

Want to run knights to stomp your opponent with large models? You will be in trouble against a horde list with loads of hard hitting guns. No problem, because you just sideboard out a knight for some horde-counters if you face a horde. Making a sideboard to counter your spam nemesis will be easier than making a sideboard to counter any type of gimmicky list.

What we need is more incentive to bring multi-purpose units. Instead of thinking "best gun for the job" we should think "best gun for most jobs". Or in other ways, make it a tactically sound choice to pick a missile launcher over either a lascannon or a heavy bolter. As a hybrid it can do either at 75% efficiency (random, not mathhammered number). Building a list that can cope with any type of mission against any type of opponent is actually pretty difficult. It ruins the fun of the game when someone makes a power-list designed to table the opponent and just rely on the matchup to not be a nemesis.

The one aspect of your proposal that I do find very interesting is the flexibility within wargear/loadouts. I would love to see an option that allows me to pull various configurations from reserves. It makes perfectly thematic sense that a squad of terminators would get battlefield intel before teleporting, allowing them to run through the armory and not bring a knife to a gunfight.
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM





In the U.K. AoS tournie scene we played like this for a year (before the GHB) and it was a blast. In fact that's why the GHB points are the way they are (as they are based on the popular comps of the time).

It was played with live deployment so you would have a fluid side board right up until you had deployed a full 2000points.

Since the GHB the U.K. tournament scene has gone back to fixed lists (although I have played a few dual list tournaments). I wouldn't say either way is superior but it's nice to mix it up and have variety.

Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-) 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

I think we already had this thread and people were not generally in favour.
   
Made in fr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks





France

It had already been suggested here on Dakka, long ago.
It was dismissed but I don't recall exactly why.

   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





The issue with the use of power points is that it benefits armies that have a lot of good options. Because of how power points are calculated some units are hugely undercosted. This is exacerbated when you allow those units to swap equipment on the spot, and will lead to even spammier more boring lists. More customizable units are hugely more powerful in a system where they can swap wargear. These units are largely imperial in nature.

Even with power level if you are swapping out units, unless you put a lot of arbitrary rules into place, I think the math is not quite so easy as you want in all cases. If my units exact match power level it works great, if my 25 point side board is a 10, 7 and 8 power level, and in my list my units for 100 points are 11, 11, 9, 9,6,6,14,5,5,8,16, it is still hard to match up a set of units that add up to the right power, so either I play down a couple power, or I cannot really switch the exact units I want to switch, but instead only those that match up.



I think if you want to go the sideboard route, I think you are better off with people just bringing 2 lists, and then each player choses one of their lists after seeing the opponents lists. But this would take a lot of time for people, unpacking models etc.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Breng77 wrote:
I think if you want to go the sideboard route, I think you are better off with people just bringing 2 lists, and then each player choses one of their lists after seeing the opponents lists. But this would take a lot of time for people, unpacking models etc.


Or 1500 pts list and 2-n 500 pts sideboards which you pick one fully. No swapping unit by unit basic. It's 500 pts blocks of which you pick one.

Cuts down also on extra stuff as only say 25% of your army points will change one way or another.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/29 12:00:34


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





tneva82 wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
I think if you want to go the sideboard route, I think you are better off with people just bringing 2 lists, and then each player choses one of their lists after seeing the opponents lists. But this would take a lot of time for people, unpacking models etc.


Or 1500 pts list and 2-n 500 pts sideboards which you pick one fully. No swapping unit by unit basic. It's 500 pts blocks of which you pick one.

Cuts down also on extra stuff as only say 25% of your army points will change one way or another.


yup that could also work. The only issue is that unless you require that 500 points to be say a separate detachment, you might run into issues with keeping armies legal.

So you could say you may have one of your detachments be a "sideboard" this detachment cannot exceed 25% of total points, this detachment may be swapped out for your sideboard, which must be a detachment of equal or lesser points.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/29 12:17:45


 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

See I love the idea of sideboards, because they specifically let you deal with those corner-case matchups. But I have no doubt that the competitive players will turn it into something that gets abused. Concept-wise though I think they are great.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/29 13:06:59


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Wayniac wrote:
See I love the idea of sideboards, because they specifically let you deal with those corner-case matchups. But I have no doubt that the competitive players will turn it into something that gets abused.


I'm anti-sideboard for this reason (look at how Mk2 skew progressed from defense-skew to armor-skew) , as well as it viewing it as an admission the designers gave up trying to balance the game. Now, I am cool with "sideboarding equipment" if it's for super-niche scenarios/mission loadouts though. Stuff like Fire Barrels, Grapple Hooks, or other gear that wouldn't be standard-issue but would both thematically make sense for a specific mission, and wouldn't be worth spending points on otherwise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/29 13:09:38


 
   
 
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