Power Fist or Chain Fist.

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**Galas**

So, what do you think is generally better?

My first impresion, being the Power Fist cheaper, is that it is better to fight against multiwound elite units, but the Chain fist, with his higger AP and fixed damage is better to destroy vehicles. But at the same time, is better to kill 2 wounds models too.

Aesthetically I like Chainfists more, so thats another point in their favour for me

What are you impresions?

**Desubot**

The chain fist does consistent damage and denys up to power armor a save

vs

Power fist which does up to 3 damage and denys up to a 4+ save.

i dont know how to feel about it. iv seen too many 6+ saves being made and some times i just like going full ham. but at the same time most things with 2+ saves and multi wounds also come with some flavor of invul so the -4 isnt necessarily that good.

**Voss**

Generally, I'd rather take neither.

If forced to, given the trivial point difference, chainfist. It's a no brainer choice- the fewer times (both saves and wounds, in this case) the dice can screw you, the less it happens.

Minimizing risk on two dice rolls is definitely worth 2 points.

**Galas**

Thanks guy, if you put it like that Voss you are pretty correct.

But why you don't take neither generally?

**G00fySmiley**

give me consistency over possibile big gains. d3 wounds vs 2... I would pick 2 every time,

**Desubot**

Galas wrote:
Thanks guy, if you put it like that Voss you are pretty correct.

But why you don't take neither generally?

Id just chuck whatever is on the sprue. so 2 per 5. its not worth buying bits for them though i guess if a 2 pointer ever came in between you and a nice even list then you could magnetize it

**MilkmanAl**

Chainfists are worth the extra 2 pts, IMO. The damage consistency and AP are a notable improvement.

**Voss**

Galas wrote:
Thanks guy, if you put it like that Voss you are pretty correct.

But why you don't take neither generally?

Well it's pretty 8th specific. Basically between the -1 to hit, the changes to the wound chart* AND the changes to point costs of other power weapons, it just doesn't seem a worthwhile choice.
There are also much fewer ways of getting more attacks as well, which factors into it too.

Case in point, it goes too far (as in, almost half the cost) in pushing things like 5 terminators or MANz to be 200 point units. There are too many things in the 200 point range that deal with multi-wound models and armor much more effectively.
I'd just rather have more of something cost effective or something simply better at AT.

*most specifically on the wound chart, if the model isn't S4 or higher, a powerfist (or equivalent, like eviscerators) is like smacking yourself in the face. 20 some points to still wound on 3s (or even 4s)? Awful. Even 10 is a bit rough for that, given the worse WS in guard.

**Neophyte2012**

Voss wrote:
Generally, I'd rather take neither.

If forced to, given the trivial point difference, chainfist. It's a no brainer choice- the fewer times (both saves and wounds, in this case) the dice can screw you, the less it happens.

Minimizing risk on two dice rolls is definitely worth 2 points.

+1, in my past 3 years gaming experience, GW dices always offer more 1s and 2s than 5s and 6s when I am rolling to wound and saves, while offering me more 5s and 6s than 1s and 2s when rolling scatter and Ld / initiative test. Which always get my expensive MEQ and TEQ effectiveness screwed down to GEQ level

So come into 8th Edition, I would always at least take one chainfist in each Terminator Squads.

**Galas**

So, guys, speaking about Tartaros Terminators, whats your opinion of a 5 man squad with 5 pairs of Powerclaws?

Basically to fuction as a pseudo anti-horde squad. My problem with this is that basically, to do that I can just take Vanguard Veterans or Assault marines.
But I love Tartaros Terminators, and the double powerclaw is my favourite load-out.

But at the same time, the heavy weapon and the special gun in the sargeant+power sword offer much more flexibility.

**Nevelon**

Galas wrote:
So, guys, speaking about Tartaros Terminators, whats your opinion of a 5 man squad with 5 pairs of Powerclaws?

Basically to fuction as a pseudo anti-horde squad. My problem with this is that basically, to do that I can just take Vanguard Veterans or Assault marines.
But I love Tartaros Terminators, and the double powerclaw is my favourite load-out.

But at the same time, the heavy weapon and the special gun in the sargeant+power sword offer much more flexibility.

In some of my first trial lists, I ran 5 man capheracti with 2xClaws. They blended all sorts of stuff. Better when a HQ was nearby for buffs (chaplain preferred, but captains work as well) With most of the paired weapon rules gone, and no extra attack for charging, getting a good volume of attacks going can be rough. Paired claws still grant the attack, and TDA have a decent base. Getting a re-roll to hit of some sort helps convert those rolls to hits, and the re-roll on the wound from the claws helps make them stick. One game they pulled apart a defiler.

So offensively, the claw loadout works.

A more classic load with stormbolters and fists can work as well. I’ve run my old school ones, and they work. Nice volume of fire from the bolters, and fists still crump heads. Lower volume of CC attacks can make cold dice noticeable.

And to bring us back to the original topic; Chainfist. The AP is nice, but the reliable 2W cinches it. The dice will always screw you given the chance; avoid giving them the opportunity.

**Galas**

Thanks Nevelon! I have already a squad of Powerfist+Stormbolters and heavy weapons terminators so I think I'm gonna do the Tartaros full Powerclaws!

**Nevelon**

Galas wrote:
Thanks Nevelon! I have already a squad of Powerfist+Stormbolters and heavy weapons terminators so I think I'm gonna do the Tartaros full Powerclaws!

To be fair, my experience was with capheracti.

I was also using a high risk/reward DS strategy. Land and hope for the long charge, with the command re-roll. When I failed, the 4++ of the CTDA helped weather the return fire. And if I had to do it over again, I would probably put a chainfist on the sarge. This moreso for tarts, as they have better gun options for the sarge.

I’m a little irritated that the terminator entries aren’t more consistent. Why can the CTDA take claw/bolter, but the tarts can only take claws in pairs? Mostly it torques me off because I built my tarteros shooty, with a mix of CC weapons.

**Mandragola**

I've got a bunch of Cataphractii - enough to make a squad of 5 with all claws. Think I'll do so, especially since there doesn't seem to be much point buying them a heavy flamer.

I think the 4++ on Cataphractii is worth more than it might seem, because it gets used a lot more often. A normal/tartaros terminator's 5++ only comes into effect if he gets hit by a weapon with at least a -4 AP. That's a pretty small proportion of stuff. The Cataphractii's 4++ works against lascannons, plasma guns, power swords/fists and quite a lot more.

As for the OP's question, yes I think chainfists are worth another 2 points. However, my point above about invulnerables does come into play. A good AP is quite often negated by an invulnerable save on the target. The better your AP, the more likely that some of it is wasted.

Final point: single lightning claw and storm bolter is actually a pretty interesting load-out for killing hordes. One less attack, but cheaper and you get to fire 4 times on the way in. So maybe a good load-out is a combination of lightning claws and chainfists.

**Latro_**

average on a d3 is 2 so the dmg is on average the same

so its all about the -3 vs -4

10 chainfist attacks kill 5.5 marines
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=10&str=8&ap=4&dam=2&tou=4&wnd=1&sv=3

10 fists attacks kill 4.63
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=10&str=8&ap=3&dam=2&tou=4&wnd=1&sv=3

10 chainfists vs rhino 8.8 wounds
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=10&str=8&ap=4&dam=2&tou=7&wnd=10&sv=3

10 fists vs rhino 7.4 wounds
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=10&str=8&ap=3&dam=2&tou=7&wnd=10&sv=3

So they're better, not by a great deal.. more than 2pts better though i'd say/

edit: stats above are hitting on a 3, prob more likely a 4 but meh

**Mandragola**

Ok 15 lightning claw attacks do 4.63 wounds to a rhino. They kill 6.25 marines. Power fists really kill 3.47 marines, assuming a base 3+ to hit, falling to 4+. Single claws kill 4.167 marines - so are better than power fists in combat with 1-wound targets and also cheaper.

I'm pretty sure that doing 2 wounds is significantly better than doing d3. Stuff like terminators and primaris are fairly common and it's good to have guaranteed kills against them.

D3 is only better against 3-wound models, where you have a 1/3 chance of killing them in one hit (slightly mitigated by a 1/9 chance of taking 3 hits).

The chainfists is again better against 4-wound targets against tougher stuff the difference becomes very marginal, as the d3s will be more likely to converge on an average of 2.

**Galas**

If I remember correctly Tartaros terminator can't take a single claw and a stormbolter, you need to take the Powerclaws in pairs.