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So it's been established that vehicals have no facings and that all models can fire from any point of the base or the hull. Then why do crimson hunters have a rule about pivoting for movement . Plus two 90 degree turns make a 180 which is the sharpest turn possible why not just say that flyers can only move in straight lines.

vaurapung wrote:
So it's been established that vehicals have no facings and that all models can fire from any point of the base or the hull. Then why do crimson hunters have a rule about pivoting for movement . Plus two 90 degree turns make a 180 which is the sharpest turn possible why not just say that flyers can only move in straight lines.

Flyers must move 20"-60" every turn. And, if they Zoom Advance, that's another 20". So, moving in a straight line that many inches (20"-80") can either be great advantage, or somewhat of a restriction. Either way, with flyers you must try to plan ahead for where you'd like them to be so that you can appropriately pivot and move straight. If you weren't allowed to pivot, you'd fly off the board. So, you must be able to pivot, and you must do so to keep moving at a flyer's pace while also staying in bounds of the board.

That said, the Crimson Hunter can pivot twice because Eldar pilots are great at what they do

But if vehicals have no facings and guns can shoot from any point of the hull/base then what are pivots for..?

With no unit type rules it just doesn't make any sense to me since all the rules that made pivots important are gone such as Los to shoot and hiding the rear arc from enemy Los.

It's for movement. What is so hard to understand about that?

Bc there are no rules about unit types and A pivot doesn't have any matter to the movement. By all technicality a vehical has no front bc to look from behind the model is any direction. So if I can move the vehical sideways or backwards and there is no rear arc or front facing or Los to shoot then why is there a pivot in my unit rules.

Is there a rules question here?

Yeah. How do we move vehicals. Because don't exist as a unit type anymore. So core rules suggest all models are moved from any point up to their maximum distance and at least their minumum distance. No models have facings, all models can shoot from any point of the base or hull, and the models toughness is for the whole model because we have no arcs like previous editions.

So why do I have a unit rule saying to pivot when no rules in the game have effect on pivoting bc I can move the models however I wish based on the rules for movement and the lack of model facings.

This question is more aimed for someone that knows game workshop so that it can be explained as it was meant to be when created not how it's interpreted from being read.

Also this will be my first time fielding flyers and my rules debate on Los completly shattered any reason for having to pivot a model in 8th edition.

Okay, there's two ways to handle the way you're interpreting the rule. Before that, though, let me say that you're correct in that there is nothing outlining the fact that you MUST move the forward-facing arc of your flyer forward in a straight line. The reason that GW didn't put it in the rules was probably because they don't expect anyone to move their models in such a way that you would not be moving "forward" in a straight line. That said, the two ways to handle your reading of the pivot rules:

1. You move your flyer with its front facing forward and when you pivot, you do so with a frame of reference in mind, then you move forward. Pivoting always moves your frame of reference (in this case, the nose of the Crimson Hunter). This is understood to be the way you move your flyers.

OR

2. You have no frame of reference and you can move your flyer facing any direction you want, so long as it moves in a straight line. The problem with this is, you can never turn. On turn 1, per the rules, you would pivot, then move in a straight line across the table, not necessarily "forward". Again, you pivot on your next turn, but it wouldn't matter, you still move in a straight line. Eventually, you would move to the edge of the board, because pivoting does nothing to alter your direction.

I think it is clear that pivoting is meant to alter your direction, for the very reasons you've pointed out. There are no facings and no LOS from facings, so the only function of pivoting would be to adjust your trajectory moving at high speeds.

I think a better way to explain the question is "why do the rules add this complication for some flyers, when they could just treat them like every other unit in the game". Admittedly, fliers having this one extra bit of complexity is kind of confounding, so I get why OP is having an issue getting the "why" of it.

If you read the wings of khaine rule in its entirety it tells you that to move the flier you first pivot up to 90 then move in a straight line, then you can pivot again... so while not covered in the main rules it is covered in the data sheet. Each flier I have seen has had similar rules and so they all move the same way...

Hmm. And they took away the universal rules why then... But the other part of what I don't get is not just the extra bit of movement hassle but the flyer has no front side or rear because it can shoot from any point like its facing any direction any time.

The data sheet rules make sense for a seventh edition game but eight edition rules abandoned facings and arcs so pivoting is not supported by the new rules like they were in seventh.

Transport further the idea that models are facing all directions at all times by allowing models to disembark within three inches of the hull. Not the access point.

vaurapung wrote:
Hmm. And they took away the universal rules why then... But the other part of what I don't get is not just the extra bit of movement hassle but the flyer has no front side or rear because it can shoot from any point like its facing any direction any time.

The data sheet rules make sense for a seventh edition game but eight edition rules abandoned facings and arcs so pivoting is not supported by the new rules like they were in seventh.

Transport further the idea that models are facing all directions at all times by allowing models to disembark within three inches of the hull. Not the access point.

Yes, a vehicle may FACE all directions, and can shoot from all sides, but it can only move in a single straight line (be that diagonal, backwards, forward, sideways, etc etc). However, the pivot allows that straight line to become three lines, and allow for better movement on the board.

For example, I have a lesser flyer. It sweeps past an enemy unit, raking it with gunfire. However, because I am forced to move a set distance in one direction, I am forced to take my vehicle out of range or LOS of the unit. With the Crimson Hunter, I can pivot more, and stay in range/LOS of the target.

My experience with airplanes lets me know which part of it is the front.

It's easy enough to play with unless you try to make it difficult.

Forward is forward, and it's pretty clear which direction it is and how the flyer should move. The fact that you measure from the hull does not mean a vehicle does not have a front an a rear. Trying to imply that "forward" is any direction is pretty much trying to cheat and won't be alowed in any tournament or friendly game.

vaurapung wrote:
But if vehicals have no facings and guns can shoot from any point of the hull/base then what are pivots for..?

With no unit type rules it just doesn't make any sense to me since all the rules that made pivots important are gone such as Los to shoot and hiding the rear arc from enemy Los.

The rule where flyer dies if it is forced to move from the table is still in. Basically it is to help you stay away from the enemy and dance at the distance of your guns, since other flyers (like DE) have to be more straightforward in their movement.

Seizeman wrote:
Forward is forward, and it's pretty clear which direction it is and how the flyer should move. The fact that you measure from the hull does not mean a vehicle does not have a front an a rear. Trying to imply that "forward" is any direction is pretty much trying to cheat and won't be alowed in any tournament or friendly game.

+1 To this. I get what the OP is asking, and even though the core rules don't spell it out specifically, I'm pretty sure we're all expected to use a bit of common sense.

Also the Death From the Skies advanced rules has facings for flyers.

Just because the shooting rules don't care about facings anymore, doesn't suddenly mean vehicles don't have a front anymore. Language and reality is still a thing.

As I read the rules. The reason no models have front and rear facing, shooting arcs or hull values is because the model it considered to be facing all ways at all times which would then make a pivot from any point of the model and any time nulling the reason for a pivot.

Yes I agree it seems like common sense that the front of the jet is the front but with rules in the game sugesting that there is no front to any model it makes the whole mechanic null.

vaurapung wrote:
As I read the rules. The reason no models have front and rear facing, shooting arcs or hull values is because the model it considered to be facing all ways at all times which would then make a pivot from any point of the model and any time nulling the reason for a pivot.

Yes I agree it seems like common sense that the front of the jet is the front but with rules in the game sugesting that there is no front to any model it makes the whole mechanic null.

Language is still a thing. The Front of the model is still the Front, it's got nothing to do with rules but everything to do with reality.

vaurapung wrote:
As I read the rules. The reason no models have front and rear facing, shooting arcs or hull values is because the model it considered to be facing all ways at all times which would then make a pivot from any point of the model and any time nulling the reason for a pivot.

Yes I agree it seems like common sense that the front of the jet is the front but with rules in the game sugesting that there is no front to any model it makes the whole mechanic null.

youve again made a baseless assumption just like with your last thread. No where in the rules does it say models are facing 360 degrees at all times

 Khorvahn wrote:
If you read the wings of khaine rule in its entirety it tells you that to move the flier you first pivot up to 90 then move in a straight line, then you can pivot again... so while not covered in the main rules it is covered in the data sheet. Each flier I have seen has had similar rules and so they all move the same way...

This.

Vehicles in 8th move the exact same way as everything else. Your tank, with its inline treads, can move perpendicular to its front orientation(abstracting pivot-move-pivot as a direct beging to end).

Flyers, in all of their pivot-then-move rules(generally tell us the move must be a straight line forwards.

 CrownAxe wrote:

vaurapung wrote:
As I read the rules. The reason no models have front and rear facing, shooting arcs or hull values is because the model it considered to be facing all ways at all times which would then make a pivot from any point of the model and any time nulling the reason for a pivot.

Yes I agree it seems like common sense that the front of the jet is the front but with rules in the game sugesting that there is no front to any model it makes the whole mechanic null.

youve again made a baseless assumption just like with your last thread. No where in the rules does it say models are facing 360 degrees at all times

But no where in the rules does it tell me how vehicals move so they move like everything else. And they move sideways, backways and frontways.

As for baseless. Its about finding out the particulars of every rule since gw felt that I didn't need a complete rule book.

vaurapung wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

vaurapung wrote:
As I read the rules. The reason no models have front and rear facing, shooting arcs or hull values is because the model it considered to be facing all ways at all times which would then make a pivot from any point of the model and any time nulling the reason for a pivot.

Yes I agree it seems like common sense that the front of the jet is the front but with rules in the game sugesting that there is no front to any model it makes the whole mechanic null.

youve again made a baseless assumption just like with your last thread. No where in the rules does it say models are facing 360 degrees at all times

But no where in the rules does it tell me how vehicals move so they move like everything else. And they move sideways, backways and frontways.

As for baseless. Its about finding out the particulars of every rule since gw felt that I didn't need a complete rule book.

the crimson hunter rules tell you how to move. It's that simple.

The only reason that I have an issue with that is because that means the vehical has a facing. And if the vehical has a facing it has a visibility arc and it can only shoot in that arc.

Now backwards. My firing arc can be drawn from any point of the model so my facing is any point of the model so I can move in any direction because my facing is always the direction I want to go.

vaurapung wrote:
The only reason that I have an issue with that is because that means the vehical has a facing. And if the vehical has a facing it has a visibility arc and it can only shoot in that arc.

Now backwards. My firing arc can be drawn from any point of the model so my facing is any point of the model so I can move in any direction because my facing is always the direction I want to go.

No. The rules tell you how to move. You're trying to make up reasons why the rules don't work when they clearly do.

I'm not asking how I guess. I'm asking why was it written this way without full detail how every mechanic works. I don't want seventh back I just want the ever so detailed rule book that seventh had. Every reason for every mechanic was completly described.

To me, to boil the move mechanic down to just a qaurter page with no real explanations and then not even talk about how the index can affect the rules is backwards. I should be able to derive every mechanic from the rule book so that when any model is on the feild I just need to know what it is to know what it does. Not sift through pages upon pages cross referencing multiple books and faqs and erratas to know how to play the game.

You might think I'm crazy but these are the things that cause arguments when I can't point to it in the rule book.

Lyon are confused because again you are dragging rules from the previous edition. Firing arcs and facing don't exist at all. Models don't have a 360 face or a 360 firing arc

 CrownAxe wrote:
Lyon are confused because again you are dragging rules from the previous edition. Firing arcs and facing don't exist at all. Models don't have a 360 face or a 360 firing arc

As a note I'm comparing this rule to only the core rules I've stayed very far from trying to use expansion rules because that's to much extra page flipping.

Do the pivots affect the dogfight expansion..?

That why I keep saying the pivot rule is funky. If a model has a 360 facing then it has no front for all intended rules purposes. And to further that transports can embark/disembark from any point of the model. And in choosing targets behind the model is simply the side opposite of your target so in movement your target would be a location to move with make behind your model any point.

There is no rule that says the model points any one direction and that why I brought this up. So that instead of arguing it at the board about a necron night scythe or a storm talon or my crimson hunter I will be able to point to the book exactly how the rules work. Not assumptions, not common sense just plain written rules.