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Okay, please confirm my interpretation. The rules allow a model to fight in CC with more than one weapon. A roughrider has only 1 Attack under his characteristics, but also carries a chainsword and a hunting lance. He charges. He attacks with the hunting lance at its profile. He then gets an additional attack using the chainsword's profile. His mount then attacks using its profile.
Am I correct? (I guess the lance and chainsword attacks could be made in any order)
My logic, the chainsword says "each time the bearer fights, it can make one additional attack using this profile"
Have I missed anything? (I am about to run a roughrider heavy army)
Thanks Dakka.

Yep, you are correct

Dear lord, I never realized that! Just made my 20 Roughriders seem that much better in my eyes!

so that means they get the chainsword attack in addition to their trampling hooves attack. So that means 3 attacks apiece, one of which is the spear.

That makes them a bit better, here I thought they only got the spear and hooves

Same for Khorne Berzerkers. Replace Bolt Pistol with Chain Axe, and you now have more attacks and you fight twice, so double benefit.

Wrong!!

A model chooses it's weapon when attacking (before rolling dice). So you must decide if you're using the lance OR the chainsword. If you don't use the chainsword you don't get it's rules. The sergeant, with two attacks, can chose to make an attack with both weapons - one with each.

As detailed on the datasheet, Trampling Hooves attacks can be made after all normal close combat attacks.

Cheers

MarkNorfolk wrote:
If you don't use the chainsword you don't get it's rules.

Please, read the rules for chainswords again. REALLY look closely.

I can see where you are coming from but I don't think it stacks up.

You must choose a weapon to make the attack.
The special ability 'each time a bearer fights it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon' is for the chainsword.
If you're not using the chainsword you don't get it's effect.

Having plasma pistol does not mean you are slain on a '1' with every weapon you attack with.
Having a Hunting Lance does not mean you can only attack on the charge with every weapon you attack with.
Therefore you get a second chainsword attack if you are using a chainsword!
Note also that the Trampllng Hooves specifically states it is an additional attack in addition to the normal attacks.

Cheers

MarkNorfolk wrote:
If you're not using the chainsword you don't get it's effect.

Sorry but you are wrong. The chainsword doesn't care if you use it or not.

Now, you can either accept you're wrong, or we can go 30 pages of people explaining to you why you're wrong. Your choice.

MarkNorfolk wrote:
I can see where you are coming from but I don't think it stacks up.

You must choose a weapon to make the attack.
The special ability 'each time a bearer fights it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon' is for the chainsword.
If you're not using the chainsword you don't get it's effect.

Having plasma pistol does not mean you are slain on a '1' with every weapon you attack with.
Having a Hunting Lance does not mean you can only attack on the charge with every weapon you attack with.
Therefore you get a second chainsword attack if you are using a chainsword!
Note also that the Trampllng Hooves specifically states it is an additional attack in addition to the normal attacks.

Cheers

The additional attack has to be with the chainsword, but that's it. The rule is clear, and is nothing like what the supercharged plasma weapon rules are. All the model has to do is fight, and the condition is met to get the extra chainsword attack.

i'm confused as well now.
you're seemingly taking the benefit of one weapon while excluding the penalty of another.

using the justification for the chainsword why wouldnt you apply the penalty of the plasma?

an IG plasma pistol simply states 'On a hit roll of 1, the bearer is slain.'

Oh, and for the record, i honestly dont believe this but can see the argument that you have to be using the chainsword to gain the effect.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
i'm confused as well now.
you're seemingly taking the benefit of one weapon while excluding the penalty of another.

using the justification for the chainsword why wouldnt you apply the penalty of the plasma?

an IG plasma pistol simply states 'On a hit roll of 1, the bearer is slain.'

Oh, and for the record, i honestly dont believe this but can see the argument that you have to be using the chainsword to gain the effect.

Yes, that's on the hit roll when attacking with a plasma weapon.

The chainsword rule specifically just says when the bearer fights (not attacks with this weapon) it gets one extra attack with the chainsword. Its serioiusly not rocket science and there are a ton of weapons that have this same ability. So if you had, for example, 3 attacks and were equipped with a power fist and a chainsword, you get to make your 3 attacks with your powerfist and then the chainsword gives you a bonus chainsword attack.

Now of course you have the OPTION to make all 4 attacks with the chainsword if you want, but that's your decision.

If plasma said: 'Each time the bearer fights, any hit rolls of '1' means the bearer is slain', then you'd have a valid argument that plasma weapons work whether they're actually used or not.

Yep, profile attack with lance plus bonus chainsword attack plus hooves attack.

It can't be that clear - because we disagree :-)

The plasma pistol does not specify that the slain on '1' rule is for the plasma pistol alone - the rule comes into play when you actively use the pistol. And the trampling hooves really goes out of it's way to state the attack is made on top of all other attacks. I'm just say the it's a fair assumption to make that the special rule for a weapon triggers when you use that weapon.

One for an FAQ

"Each time the bearer fights..."

That is the condition. The model must fight. Not 'fight using their chainsword'. Just fight.

"...it may make one additional attack with this weapon."

That is the permitted action, one attack that must be with a chainsword.

There really is no other way to read it. The FAQ confirms it with its take on how to handle being armed with two chainswords.



And you can't take one line out of a paragraph of rules for a Plasma Pistol and suggest it applies to other stuff. It's part of a rule, not something you can select and apply elsewhere. That's a non-argument.

Lets use two different melee weapons to clear this up rather than a melee weapon (chain sword) and pistol (plasma pistol)

Chain Sword states: "Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon."

Power FIst states: "When attacking with this weapon, you must subtract 1 from the hit roll."

The difference in wording is very clear and intentional. If they intended the effect of the Chain Sword to require using it the wording would have been "When attacking with this weapon, make 1 additional attack with this weapon." It does not though.

Have a chainsword? Make 1 additional attack with it regardless of what weapon you use.

 vonjankmon wrote:
Lets use two different melee weapons to clear this up rather than a melee weapon (chain sword) and pistol (plasma pistol)

Chain Sword states: "Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon."

Power FIst states: "When attacking with this weapon, you must subtract 1 from the hit roll."

The difference in wording is very clear and intentional. If they intended the effect of the Chain Sword to require using it the wording would have been "When attacking with this weapon, make 1 additional attack with this weapon." It does not though.

Have a chainsword? Make 1 additional attack with it regardless of what weapon you use.

I can see that interpretation, and reviewing the weapon summaries plenty of weapons state 'with this weapon' for their effects. and Plasma pistol seems to be an aberration when compared to other plasma weapons. so... standing down....

Plasma, or rather the wording for overheats, in general seems to be the aberration.

Plasma pistol just goes further with it the wrong way.

If we look at the trends on weapon abilities; they do exactly as they say and either always apply, or only apply when used.

Most of them go out if their way to state abilities take effect when used.

Overheats are nearly all "after resolving all of the shots(or similar) which means rolling a 1 to hit with a bolt pistol on your plasmagun carrying tac marine will not slay him(because he is not resolving any plasma gun shots). The pistol seems intent on killing you as soon as you roll any 1 tohit.

If you are reading chainsword/the like to require an attack with them; then you can never use trampling hooves: the ability cannot apply without use(like the chainsword) and the ability defines its use.

Overheat in all instances must be read as "when firing with this profile*, on a roll of 1 to-hit...."

*with this profile because "firing this weapon" would negate the safe modes for most guns.

This should have been in the FAQ, or at least some clarification on weapon abilities(which is presently un-defined) .

You don't even need to look at trends. Bespoke rules means the Chainsword tells you what it does.

Any, OP has had his question answered now, and Chainsword clarified, so there's not anything left to discuss that's on topic.