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I'm still absorbing the 8th edition rules for my various armies, and I've started eyeballing the changes to drukhari wych cult units. What does dakka think? Has 8th made a wych cult army viable again, or are the gladiatrices, reaver gangs, and hellion packs still 40k on hard mode? My early impressions:

Power From Pain:
When I first looked at the new PFP, I didn't think it was much of an improvement over the old version. After playing a couple games with it, however, I've started to come around to it. Inured to Suffering isn't a big deal, but having it on almost every non-vehicle model in your army means it will help out at least a couple times during the course of the game. Even if it doesn't save a unit, it might force your opponent to fire an extra volley at you to take you out. Eager to Flay basically just allows us to break even after we lost fleet, but it's still a welcome benefit to have in an already-quick army. Flensing Fury is probably the biggest boon to a wych cult, and getting it on turn 3 (compared to Furious Charge on turn 4 in 7th edition) means that we can start benefitting from it before the battle is already decided. It's a huge boost to our offense, especially when combo'd with one of our characters that grants rerolls. The other results are nice to have, though I'm not sure they're as important given how late into the game they kick in.

Combat Drugs:
The changes to this rule are a huge improvement in my eyes. Sure, you can't apply your favorite drug to your whole army, but you can guarantee that each unit gets the most advantageous combat drug automatically. Plus, even the worst of the results are still pretty okay.

No Escape:
This is a rule that I really like in the vacuum of 8th edition, but it still feels like an overall nerf when you realize you can't sweep your opponent and that they have a non-zero chance of simply walking away now. So while I'm glad we have it, I don't think we can really claim that it leaves us better off than we were. Unless you're really good at rolling waves of lock-downs, I guess.

Succubus:
I feel like the succubus became a much less impressive warrior. She has fewer attacks, for starters. I feel that she'll struggle to win duels against other HQs due to her lack of multi-damage, solid-AP weapon choices (unless you count the blast pistol). The nerfs to the archite glaive (-1 to hit with it and -3 AP instead of ignoring all armor saves) make her go-to weapon less impressive as well. That said, she did get a few perks this edition. Her reroll aura dovetails nicely with the new combat drugs and PFP rules, potentially giving you rerolls to hit on top of a +1 to your to-hit rolls. Though it feels odd for her best weapon to be a gun, the blast pistol being usable in your shooting phase does make her much better against some targets provided she lives long enough to shoot it.

Lelith:
Seems mostly unchanged. I think her wargear actually got slightly worse. She still looks fun to field, but her low strength is still a hindrance. One that is compounded, somewhat, by her lack of access to Furious Charge. Although they decided she's back on combat drugs again (for the first time since 5th edition?), so you can always give her a bit of a boost with those.

Wyches:
The blood and bones of a wych cult are finally... basically the same as they were. Well, that's not entirely true. Their grenades are a bit better now, and I like some of the changes to the wych weapons. I still prefer the 5th edition and pre-5th edition versions of the wych weapons, but at least this incarnation helps them make wounds stick against armored targets. The power sword causing the hekatrix to give up an extra attack feels wrong, but I still suspect I'll be fielding them on my hekatrices more often than not. The biggest boost to this unit is probably the potential for force multiplication with the succubus, PFP, and combat drugs. Want a rerollable WS2+ on turn 1? You got it! Just don't complain when you get no benefit from PFP on turn 3. Or maybe you'd rather go for an extra attack so that, on turn 3, you hit on 2s and reroll 1s when near your succubus. Or maybe you'd rather crank up your strength stat so that you have an easier time wounding geqs and meqs. Or maybe you just want extra movement so you can fling yourself into the enemy lines and start tarpitting faster. Or extra toughness so you can tarpit better! You can even take the -1 leadership drug and spam phantasm launchers if you're feeling quirky. TLDR; I don't think wyches themselves really got better, but I do think they stand to benefit more from the new PFP and combat drugs than almost any other unit. I'm just not sure whether or not that makes them "good" this edition.

Blood Brides:
See wyches, but even moreso. I've never been a huge fan of "more expensive wyches that don't fill troop slots," but what modest advantages brides have over normal wyches do tie in nicely with the new PFP and combat drug rules. That is, having an extra attacks means you have even more chances to benefit from +1 WS or a reroll from your succubus. I really wish this unit had more of a gimmick. More flexible wargear options, for instance, or additional advantages when wielding wych weapons. But if you really want to murder something with a wych-shaped model, I guess blood brides are slightly better at it than wyches. And hey! Being a troop is less important this edition so long as you already have your compulsory troop slots filled, so...

Beast Units:
Hmmm. HMMMMMM. I think... I like them? Having to build your squad out of multiple force org slots (unless you're only using one type of beast) is a great way to burn through all your slots. Counterpoint: you probably aren't using your elite slots unless you really like blood brides. Being multiple units means you can't protect your heavy hitters with cheap, ablative wounds any more, but razorwings and khymarae are a dirt cheap unit to sprinkle around your deployment zone and guard against alpha strikes (with or without a beast master). Clawed fiends feel death prone (despite looking cool), and razorwings lost rend. That said, putting out a ton of razorwing attacks backed up by the solid WS of khymarae and the reroll aura of a beastmaster can give you a not-too-expensive little blender unit with a solid movement stat. If you have the force org slots for them, you can probably make a decent little beast pack. And even if you don't, consider tossing a couple points at a lone khymarae or razorwing flock to sit on an objective for you.


Reavers:
I don't know what I'm meant to do with these guys now. In 7th, they were basically a half-decent assault unit that could end up being pretty durable with the right warlord trait or drugs. They got better at closing the gap with the enemy, but they got worse at running away or zipping towards distant objectives. I feel that the heat lance remains meh, and the blaster might have actually gotten worse in my eyes, so they aren't really an ideal tank hunting unit. Cluster caltrops became much worse and are also overshadowed by grav talons (which seem much easier to benefit from in the first place). Their poison shooting is meh. Their bladevanes are meh. Matchless swiftness is basically a nerf compared to the turbo boost and assault move rules of 7th edition. Giving them +1 Toughness drugs is slightly less helpful now thanks to the new to-wound system. They don't really have the raw damage output to benefit from the +1 Attack or +1WS drugs, and the +1 strength drug doesn't matter (expect on a power sword champion) because of blade vanes. I get the impression that they're meant to be some sort of harassment unit, but they can't do that as well as before due to their lack of (true) hit & run or assault moves. So maybe they're just jacks of all trades and masters of none now? Maybe I'm missing something. These are great models that are fun to move around the table, but I'm not sure what their role is now.

Hellions:
I think these guys actually got quite a bit better. The damage boost to the hellglaive makes them situationally better against some targets. You can now guarantee that they'll get a drug that makes them hit harder.Their mobility and splinter pods makes them a fairly far-reaching harassment unit, and they can potentially get to grips with an enemy on turn 1. Making them all strength 5 with a glaive and the right drug opens up some interesting options too. Like wounding T5 vehicles on 4+ and scraping through the low wound count of such vehicles relatively quickly. They aren't auto-includes, and their pricetag is a bit high for my liking, but I could see myself giving them a whirl this edition. Oh. And they're probably the best way to get the Yncarne into your opponent's backfield on turn 1 if you're going the Ynnari route.

Transports:
Being able to eat overwatch with our vehicles this edition is actually a big deal for the units that previously got chewed up in overwatch, Our venoms and raiders each have a half-decent melee weapon and WS that mean they might even meaningfully contribute from time to time. And on our next turn, we can simply fly out of combat to bring out cannons and lances to bare against a different target, so we aren't really penalized for charging in.

So what do you think, folks? Are wych units in a good way this edition? Did I miss something critical with one of the above units? Can a wych cult stand on its own and do reasonably well, or will they need help from non-cult units just to break even?

Drugs are good.

1t on reavers.
1a on hellions
1s on wyches
2ld on succubus
Leftovers on beastmaster.

Lets get riggidyy riggidy wrecked!!!!

I certainly don't think there's much to celebrate on the Wych front.

PFP: I think this is a mixed bag. Having a 6++ that works against everything is nice for armies like IG who can spam endless cheap troops. However, we just don't have the numbers to make it significant. Nor are we hard to wound in the first place. Rerolling the dice for Advancing or Charging seems like a slap in the face - considering that our army used to get that as standard. +1 to hit in melee is decent for Wyches, though doesn't really help them with their biggest issue - which is wounding enemies.

Combat Drugs: Still a mix of good and garbage results (thanks for the +1 to WS, GW, given that al our stuff is hitting on 2s from turn 3 onwards anyway). At least you have a degree of choice now as to which ones you use.

Succubus: Her combat ability is about the same I think, give or take (still poor by the standards of most melee characters). Still can't take a Jetbike or Skyboard, so still stuck going in a transport with wyches/bloodbrides. Her aura is meh at best. It doesn't affect their pistols, they're already hitting on 2s from turn 3 onwards and hitting isn't even their main weakness (it's poor strength and lack of AP).

Lelith: Given her cost, she's probably worse than a normal Succubus in most respects. She also needs your valuable +1S drug to be even remotely decent in combat.

Wyches: Suffer from the exact same problems as before - low strength, negligible AP etc., and now can't even reliably tie up enemy units anymore. Also, whilst Agonisers are cheap, the Hekatrix gets a measly 2 attacks with hers.

Bloodbrides: 4pts more than the Wyches for no extra survivability and 1 extra attack each. They don't even get to take more wych weapons anymore.

Hellions: Probably improved a bit - as their Hellglaives now do 2 damage. They're S4 with no AP though, so you'll be relying an awful lot on weight of numbers to do anything meaningful with them. They also can't lock units in combat. And, at the end of the day, they're still 17pt models with T3 and 5+ saves. That really doesn't fill me with confidence.

Reavers: These probably fell furthest. I used to be able to get 3 squads of 3 (each with a Heat Lance and Cluster Caltrops) for ~220pts. Now I can't even get 2 squads of 3 for that price. What's more, Cluster Caltrops have been made vastly worse and their overall damage output seems pitiful compared to their cost. They do have 2 wounds and you can now reliably give them T5, but when you remember that they lost their 3++ Jink save (plus 5+++ FNP), I can't even say that their survivability has improved. What's more, in spite of their excessive price hikes, they can still only take 1 special weapon per 3 models. I think DE has better options.

Beasts: I think these are pretty good, if a bit weird in terms of how they'e organised now. Beast Masters seem pretty good in combat, Razorwing Flocks are insanely cheap. Looks okay.

Vehicles: More survivable now, but I think having to disembark before you move could hurt a lot - as it basically gives your opponent a free turn to react and reposition before you can get out and assault him.

Also, beware that initiative no longer exists - so even Necrons can charge your Wyches and strike before you.


By all means try but I'm really not seeing much to celebrate as far as Wych units are concerned.

I can't disagree more. I've been having massive success with my wych list, even against opponents I thought were completely impossible matchups, and would have been in 7th, like sisters of battle bolter/flamer/heavy bolter spam lists.

1) What Kind of Drugs Were They Denny?

hoooooly moly combat drugs are where it's at now. Every single one has a use, and ironically, the one I thought would be the most overpowering (the new +2Move) is the one you get the least juice out of IMO. +1S is great for Hellions or Strength Gear Wych squads, or succubi if you're against T3 opponents to get her wounding on 2s. +1T is awesome on Reavers, or HQs to give them some extra meat/if you don't have reavers. +1A is awesome for default wych squads with hydras and Agonizers. +2LD is KILLER on beastmasters - every beast squad in my army LD9 yes please.

2) charging vehicles that move 14-16" basically means overwatch is gone, at least for our initial charge. This actually may be the single biggest deal. I don't think I've lost a single model to overwatch yet in 8th, because our tanks simply do not care.

3) universal split fire and 2 squads per raider fixes a lot of our anti tank issues. 2 Hekatrixen+2 Wych Weapons outperforms 1 Hekatrix+3 Wych Weapons in every way. You get an extra grenade throw, almost don't have to care about morale at all, and you have nearly the same blaster shot output as a full Kabalite squad (2 pistols vs 1 pistol 1 blaster). Also makes it easier to fill detachments and get CPs.

4) What people forget about No Escape is that it has gotten a LOT easier to get into combat with boosted movement by 2-3 inches on all our units plus 1 extra inch on the charge, and as I said before generally ignoring overwatch. Our ability to tie up pesky Flying squads and then get around to our next round of combat where we get our attacks plus an extra round of shooting from our pistols to help finish squads off is excellent.

There are some internal balance issues. Lelith is outperformed pretty much 100% by the cheaper Glaive/Blast Pistol Succubus. Bloodbrides are really only useful as an understrength ridealong unit in a Venom with a Succubus (The extra attack lends weight to what would otherwise be a pretty useless escort squad). Hydra Gauntlets are flatly superior to Razorflails are superior to Shardnets almost always. Razorwing Flocks are so good there's little reason to consider other beasts, especially Khymerae. Reavers are probably the hardest units to make do amazing work, mostly because of how expensive they are individually, but they actually do their intended role of shooting up flanks and taking out backfield support units or jumping behind screens and popping buff characters really well. The old squads of six I used to take are generally useless, but trying them with squads of 3 with 1 heat lance, 1 grav talon, 1 Agonizer has worked wonders.

As a side note, I really hope GW is dumb enough to give us a succubus on a skyboard/jetbike so that she has a 58% chance of insta-gibbing any flyer she charges. No Escape, happy birthday to the ground!