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Lets say i place a Unit of Infantry in a Ruin, on the first floor, and i completely fill the space, that there is no place for additional models. Does that mean they cannot be charged, because enemy models cant be placed within 1" of them ?

p5freak wrote:
Lets say i place a Unit of Infantry in a Ruin, on the first floor, and i completely fill the space, that there is no place for additional models. Does that mean they cannot be charged, because enemy models cant be placed within 1" of them ?

Wobbly Model Syndrome.

The rule says : "If you delicately balance it in place...". What if there is no place to put the enemy Model ?

p5freak wrote:
The rule says : "If you delicately balance it in place...". What if there is no place to put the enemy Model ?

Does it even matter? You only need to get within 1" to be in combat, not base to base. I am struggling to even visualise what you're trying to do.

In any case, no, being in ruins will never stop the enemy from charging you.

To apply the wobbly model rule, there's has to be some room for the model, even if it's not enough for it to stay there.

I assume that by first floor he refers to the one just above the ground one.

The floor does not have unlimited space, so if it is absolutely covered (with model bases even sticking out of the floor itself), there's no way to put any other model, so no enemy will be able to get within 1", making them inmune to close combat and charges.

You can say they are hovering in the air so as to be 1" away from them vertically, then the WMS rule comes into effect IMHO.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You can say they are hovering in the air so as to be 1" away from them vertically, then the WMS rule comes into effect IMHO.

I agree. The Stepping into a new edition of Warhammer 40k FAQ addressed this scenario. The FAQ says that if a model cannot end on the floor of a ruins, use WMS to determine where the model actually is.

Ok, i have attached a photo. There are 6 SM on that ledge, one is on the corner, its removed, because of WMS. How can this be charged ? The FAQ says apply the WMS rule. But, RAW, there must be space for the enemy model to actually place it. But there is none.

p5freak wrote:
Ok, i have attached a photo. There are 6 SM on that ledge, one is on the corner, its removed, because of WMS. How can this be charged ? The FAQ says apply the WMS rule. But, RAW, there must be space for the enemy model to actually place it. But there is none.

There is plenty of space, in mid-air. Then you use WMS to say "I am in mid-air 1" from your space marines."

No matter how you try and spin it you're not going to become immune to charges.

Where does it say that Models can hover in mid air ?? You could say that Models with Jumppacks can, but Models without ?

p5freak wrote:
Where does it say that Models can hover in mid air ?? You could say that Models with Jumppacks can, but Models without ?

Where does it say "I can magically make my models immune from charging by putting them on the first floor of a ruin"? I charge, I place it in mid air level with your model in BTB contact. I now use WMS to justify it.

p5freak wrote:
Ok, i have attached a photo. There are 6 SM on that ledge, one is on the corner, its removed, because of WMS. How can this be charged ? The FAQ says apply the WMS rule. But, RAW, there must be space for the enemy model to actually place it. But there is none.

You could use WMS to have the charging models placed on the ruined wall if they had a high enough move.

BaconCatBug wrote:Where does it say "I can magically make my models immune from charging by putting them on the first floor of a ruin"? I charge, I place it in mid air level with your model in BTB contact. I now use WMS to justify it.

I'm not a Hardcore RAW Player, and i'm ok with making Compromises, but i wouldnt go so far as to allow you to hover your Models in mid Air, because the WMS Rule says the Model needs Space to be placed, even if its wobbly. If your Models have Jumppacks, then yes, otherwise no. Its a game, not a 100% real Simulation, but it should make some Sense.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:You could use WMS to have the charging models placed on the ruined wall if they had a high enough move.

Yes, it would be possible to place 2-3 enemy Models there, with the WMS Rule. But what if that wall was higher than 1" ?

Models move vertically without penalty. You can stop your move partway up a wall just as you can stop it partway on a flat surface.

Trying to bend the Wobbly model syndrome rule to justify you can hover in mid air or partway up a wall (which is the same) is just ridiculous. If there's no place to put the model, there isn't. It happens the same with non-infantry, that can't end on a floor avobe ground and thus can't ever charge anything on an upper floor. It is just how the rules work.

In the picture shown, there's room in the right side wall for at least 2 or 3 models, maybe 4 (here you can apply wobbly model syndrome). However, if that wall was as high as the other one, the unit would be effectively inmune to close combat. If you want to kill it, you must shoot at it.

Seizeman wrote:
Trying to bend the Wobbly model syndrome rule to justify you can hover in mid air or partway up a wall (which is the same) is just ridiculous. If there's no place to put the model, there isn't. It happens the same with non-infantry, that can't end on a floor avobe ground and thus can't ever charge anything on an upper floor. It is just how the rules work.

In the picture shown, there's room in the right side wall for at least 2 or 3 models, maybe 4 (here you can apply wobbly model syndrome). However, if that wall was as high as the other one, the unit would be effectively inmune to close combat. If you want to kill it, you must shoot at it.

Trying to bend the rules for ruins to make your marines magically immune to being stabbed in the face is just as ridiculous.

Trying to bend the rules for ruins to make your marines magically immune to being stabbed in the face is just as ridiculous.

How is it bending anything? Rules are clear, you must be within 1" to attack in the fight phase. If you are not, for any reason (except barricades), you can't.

It's like saying that hiding my unit behind cover out of LOS is trying to magically make my unit inmune to being shot. It's called playing by the rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Trying to bend the rules for ruins to make your marines magically immune to being stabbed in the face is just as ridiculous.

I didnt bend any Rule, you did.

I think this is a silly situation and shouldn't happen, but it can very easily. There should be clearer rules for handling this, but I really don't think allowing model hover is the solution. If WMS would really allow doing that, then what's stopping Leman Russ Battletanks hovering twelve inches above the table in the shooting phase to allow clearer LOS?

The "stepping into a new edition" document seems pretty clear that infantry, at least, are allowed to end their move halfway up a sheer wall. It seems reasonable to extend the principle to all cases of vertical movement.

 Crimson wrote:
I think this is a silly situation and shouldn't happen, but it can very easily. There should be clearer rules for handling this, but I really don't think allowing model hover is the solution. If WMS would really allow doing that, then what's stopping Leman Russ Battletanks hovering twelve inches above the table in the shooting phase to allow clearer LOS?

I don't see that there's any reason to think you can just take a model and announce that it's moving straight up. But we have explicit permission to move models up sheer walls. Leman Russes are clearly allowed to scale cliffs, and per the "stepping into a new edition" document I think it's reasonable to let them move only some of the way up a cliff (also it's weird to say that they can jump from the bottom to the top but can't end in the middle).

Warhammer 40,000 Battle Primer, page 3 wrote:Moving
A model can be moved in any direction,
to a distance, in inches, equal to or
less than the Move characteristic on its
datasheet. No part of the model’s base
(or hull) can move further than this. It
cannot be moved through other models
or through terrain features such as walls,
but can be moved vertically in order to
climb or traverse any scenery.

Warhammer 40,000 Battle Primer, page 3 wrote:Wobbly Model
Syndrome
Sometimes you may find
that a particular piece of
terrain makes it hard to
put a model exactly where
you want. If you delicately
balance it in place, it is
very likely to fall as soon
as somebody nudges the
table, leaving your painted
model damaged or even
broken. In cases like this,
we find it is perfectly
acceptable to leave the
model in a safer position,
as long as both players have
agreed and know its ‘actual’
location. If, later on, your
enemy is considering
shooting the model, you
will have to hold it back in
the proper place so they
can check if it is visible.

(Emphases mine.)

You can move models vertically, and there aren't any additional rules for doing so. This means, for example, you could move a model 6" up a 12" wall and it would end its move halfway up, just as you could move it 6" across a 12" patch of empty ground and stop in the middle. Using the rules for WMS, you'd agree the final position with your opponent and treat it as if it was there for all game purposes, even if the model could not actually be balanced there.

The wobbly model syndrome adresses situations in wich balance is precarious and the model will be damaged. It has to still be possible to put the model in some way.

The "stepping into a new edition" question adresses a situation in wich the model can't be put on a floor COMPLETELY, which implies it must be able to be put on the floor at least partially.

Putting the model in mid air halfway to a wall is not covered by any of those cases. It's not that it's balance is bad or that you can't put it completely on the floor, it is that there's phisically no way to put it at all. Is like when moving a model through ruins, you ignore terrain, but that does not mean the model can end its movement in the middle on a wall like a ghost.

If we accept that you can stay in the middle of the wall like you were spiderman, then we can have a land raider cling to a wall 12 inches above the ground and shoot from there. The only reason the ruins rules only talks about non-infantry on upper floors is because being on a floor is the only option, and not being on a wall mid air.

how was this done in 7th edition?

Am I correct to assume, that the distance is always only messured base to base, except if specificly stated otherwise (for example tanks)?

IMHO:
RAW - yes, you can entirely block a level of a ruin to prevent charges.
RAI - this can not be intendet, therefore I will handle it like I did in 7th: if you make the charge for the whole distance (up to the floor with the models) you can place your models as close as possible and fight it out.

What I think is really weird is, that even large monstrous creatures that are tall enough to fight models on the first and second floor can RAW not charge them.
stupid.

p5freak wrote:
Ok, i have attached a photo. There are 6 SM on that ledge, one is on the corner, its removed, because of WMS. How can this be charged ? The FAQ says apply the WMS rule. But, RAW, there must be space for the enemy model to actually place it. But there is none.

Just a note...a vehicle without a base could totally charge in there. Since you measure from anywhere on its hull, rather than its base, it could tuck in quite nicely underneath them to get within 1".

Seizeman wrote:
The wobbly model syndrome adresses situations in wich balance is precarious and the model will be damaged. It has to still be possible to put the model in some way.

The "stepping into a new edition" question adresses a situation in wich the model can't be put on a floor COMPLETELY, which implies it must be able to be put on the floor at least partially.

Putting the model in mid air halfway to a wall is not covered by any of those cases. It's not that it's balance is bad or that you can't put it completely on the floor, it is that there's phisically no way to put it at all. Is like when moving a model through ruins, you ignore terrain, but that does not mean the model can end its movement in the middle on a wall like a ghost.

If we accept that you can stay in the middle of the wall like you were spiderman, then we can have a land raider cling to a wall 12 inches above the ground and shoot from there. The only reason the ruins rules only talks about non-infantry on upper floors is because being on a floor is the only option, and not being on a wall mid air.

I think this is a really strained reading of the "stepping into a new edition" document. It's not "what if the model can't be put on a floor completely", it's what if it can't "completely end its move on a floor". This is ambiguous in itself, and then the answer makes very clear what the writer means by "completely" -- "if an Infantry model is unable to complete a move to a stable position..."

My model has 3" of remaining movement and wants to scale a 4" wall. It is unable to complete a move to a stable position. So it ends its move 3" up the wall.

But yes, applying the same principle it seems reasonable to say that Land Raiders can also end their move on the sides of walls. I'm not sure why this is weird given that they're very clearly allowed to go from the bottom of a cliff to the top as long as they have more remaining movement than the height of the cliff. Were you thinking that Land Raiders could jump? Edit: Although note that ruins have special rules such that Land Raiders won't be able to climb their walls.

The mid air argument is the silliest thing ever, and will just be ignored.

I suppose by Raw, if those Red Space Marines in the earlier picture had twice as many dudes, using the WMS to also place them in thin pieces of wall tops. Then yea, no normal infantry would be able to stay get/stay within 1" of them. (They could obviously still be charged, but not much would be able to fight them.)

But this is one of those HARD RAW situations that 99.9% of people will play that 1 floor distance counts as 1"


Edit - I decided to unignore the mid air argument, and create a Play for you.
TFG "I'm moving my SM 6", vertically into the air."
Norm the Normal Player "What? You're standing in the open..."
TFG "Yes, the rules state I can move in any direction. Then I can use WMS so that we both understand my SM is 6" in the sky."
Norm "Does he have Fly or a Jump Pack or something?"
TFG "Nah, that would be silly. No. He's just walking vertically straight up."

There really should be some leeway for vertical CC distance like there is for vertical unit coherency. In my last game there was a silly situation where one marine was standing on a terrain piece that was slightly over inch high and could not fight the enemy marine standing on the ground, even though it obviously looked like they could fight. It gets even sillier with big monsters such as demon princes and carnifexes.

p5freak wrote:
Ok, i have attached a photo. There are 6 SM on that ledge, one is on the corner, its removed, because of WMS. How can this be charged ? The FAQ says apply the WMS rule. But, RAW, there must be space for the enemy model to actually place it. But there is none.

There's space at that corner for a model to arrive. It won't balance there nicely, so wobbly model syndrome kicks in.
You can models can also reach the window ledges or wall tops by the same vertical movement rules. It won't balance there nicely, so wobbly model syndrome kicks in.

Also kicking in; TFG syndrome for trying to gain charge immunity against other infantry..

It's not the same for a tank to have the ability to climb on top of something than to be stuck to a wall. If you don't have enough movement to reach the top of the obstacle, you just can't climb it and must go around. This makes the most sense. Because of a vehicle's limited movement and it's inability to go on second floors of ruins, they can only climb small obstacles and barricades, wich makes sense, as opposed to escale walls, wich is silly.

How it is possible to be intended for a vehicle or monster to be unable to go to a second floor but for it to be able to climb to the walls of the same ruins and attack the infantry on the top, circumventing the restriction?

Also, fluff wise it makes absolute sense for a unit to be unable to climb to a floor that is occupied. The reasons castles and fortifications exist in real life is the virtual impossibility to climb a defended wall. That's why to attack such possitions you use artillery, grenades and shooting in general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Also kicking in; TFG syndrome for trying to gain charge immunity against other infantry.

How is TFG syndrome to take advantage of a rule that is pretty clearly intended to be used that way? The reason non-infantry can't go to upper floors is precisely so they can't charge infantry, there's no other reason for the rule to exist.

Is like accusing someone of abuse for using cover.

silentone2k wrote:

p5freak wrote:
Ok, i have attached a photo. There are 6 SM on that ledge, one is on the corner, its removed, because of WMS. How can this be charged ? The FAQ says apply the WMS rule. But, RAW, there must be space for the enemy model to actually place it. But there is none.

There's space at that corner for a model to arrive. It won't balance there nicely, so wobbly model syndrome kicks in.

NO, there is not. Use your eyes to look at the Photo, and read what i wrote.

silentone2k wrote:

You can models can also reach the window ledges or wall tops by the same vertical movement rules. It won't balance there nicely, so wobbly model syndrome kicks in.

Agreed, the Window Ledges would require the attacking Unit to move even further, but it would be possible.

silentone2k wrote:

Also kicking in; TFG syndrome for trying to gain charge immunity against other infantry..

Like i said, i'm a reasonable Gamer, i dont plan to abuse any Rules. I just wonder how this Situation could be resolved in a reasonable Way.