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The language for pys-powers on the Dark Angel section is very clear that you must use powers from "Interromancy" on page 107 (the DA section), *not* vanilla SM powers from the "Librarius" section on page 10.

The same language is not used in the Yannari "Revenant" section versus "Runes of Fate" or "Runes of Battle."

Watching Reece play a game on Twitch, with a Yannari force, he exclaimed how cool Guiding a WraithKnight is (no kiddin'! ). I am not holding Mr. Robbins to an exacting standard on this, but it got me thinking.

So, for ITC, does anyone know if there's been text, language, or a ruling specifying if a Yannari Warlock, Farseer, etc, can select powers from either discipline?

Farseers take powers from Runes of Fate, Warlocks from Runes of Battle, Yvraine & Yncarne - from Revenant. It's as simple as that, regardless if you are running Ynnari or not Ynnari. There can't be any confusion in the rules since they state everything pretty clearly in who can use what in disciplines descriptions and on psyker datasheets.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Farseers take powers from Runes of Fate, Warlocks from Runes of Battle, Yvraine & Yncarne - from Revenant. It's as simple as that, regardless if you are running Ynnari or not Ynnari. There can't be any confusion in the rules since they state everything pretty clearly in who can use what in disciplines descriptions and on psyker datasheets.

Well you're wrong on the confusion part. I am confused. Good teachers don't tell students "this is easy" or "you shouldn't be confused" when learning their way through something new. *Any* new information takes time to process. Lucky you if you're so genius that you got it in the first go. Cheers, sir.

Because the delineation between Ultras and Dark Angels is very specific, the lack of that same specificity in the Yannari text is what holds me up. The Dark Angel's paragraph has the conjunction "instead" whereas the Yannari does not have a 'but', instead', or other qualifying / permissive conjunction.

I figured if the language between psy-disciplines would be the same Cut and Paste that all the 'vehicile explode' rules. Throughout the 6 indexes, the language is the same (except d3 or d6) wounds and how it might blow up. Copy/Pasted. I thought, Bravo for GW's consistency.

But that consistency is lacking in Psy selections. So, I'm wondering.

From Chaos: SM - "Plaguecasters must choose ..." < --- rock solid. No confusion there.
From the Chaos Daemon section, *that* text isn't specific (page 69), just saying, " ... Psykers that can use powers from the [lists the 3 psy daemon themes, sex, turds, and wackiness). But let's not go there; I am not confused about that. No Nurgle Sorcerer gets to use the Tzeentch discipline. Too obvious.

Back to Space Marines:
Under Blood angels: " ... generate psy powers for Psykers that can use power from the Sanguinary discipline using the table below ... "
Dark Angels: "Psykers generate their psychic powers from the Interromancy discipline (below) instead of the Librarius discipline." < Specificity!
Space Wolves: " ... generate the psychic powers for Psykers that can use the Tempestas discipline using the table bleow." A near copy / paste of the BAs, but not DAs.

So, Wolves & Blood Angels lack a 'instead' or 'must' like Plaguecasters and Dark Angel libbies. And the Yannari text reads like the BA & SW passages:
From 76 of the Xenos 1 index:
" ... generate the psychic powers for Psykers that can use powers from the Revenant discipline using the table below."

And one of the veteran player testers, as well as Main Dude of the ITC, is using the Runes of Fate in his Yannari list (at least that's the impression I got). But he coulda made a mistake.

Care to point out what the qualifier word is in the Yannari psy-text? If not, that's okay.

So, thanks!

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Farseers take powers from Runes of Fate, Warlocks from Runes of Battle, Yvraine & Yncarne - from Revenant. It's as simple as that, regardless if you are running Ynnari or not Ynnari. There can't be any confusion in the rules since they state everything pretty clearly in who can use what in disciplines descriptions and on psyker datasheets.

Well you're wrong on the confusion part. I am confused. Good teachers don't tell students "this is easy" or "you shouldn't be confused" when learning their way through something new. *Any* new information takes time to process. Lucky you if you're so genius that you got it in the first go. Cheers, sir.

Because the delineation between Ultras and Dark Angels is very specific, the lack of that same specificity in the Yannari text is what holds me up. The Dark Angel's paragraph has the conjunction "instead" whereas the Yannari does not have a 'but', instead', or other qualifying / permissive conjunction.

I figured if the language between psy-disciplines would be the same Cut and Paste that all the 'vehicile explode' rules. Throughout the 6 indexes, the language is the same (except d3 or d6) wounds and how it might blow up. Copy/Pasted. I thought, Bravo for GW's consistency.

But that consistency is lacking in Psy selections. So, I'm wondering.

From Chaos: SM - "Plaguecasters must choose ..." < --- rock solid. No confusion there.
From the Chaos Daemon section, *that* text isn't specific (page 69), just saying, " ... Psykers that can use powers from the [lists the 3 psy daemon themes, sex, turds, and wackiness). But let's not go there; I am not confused about that. No Nurgle Sorcerer gets to use the Tzeentch discipline. Too obvious.

Back to Space Marines:
Under Blood angels: " ... generate psy powers for Psykers that can use power from the Sanguinary discipline using the table below ... "
Dark Angels: "Psykers generate their psychic powers from the Interromancy discipline (below) instead of the Librarius discipline." < Specificity!
Space Wolves: " ... generate the psychic powers for Psykers that can use the Tempestas discipline using the table bleow." A near copy / paste of the BAs, but not DAs.

So, Wolves & Blood Angels lack a 'instead' or 'must' like Plaguecasters and Dark Angel libbies. And the Yannari text reads like the BA & SW passages:
From 76 of the Xenos 1 index:
" ... generate the psychic powers for Psykers that can use powers from the Revenant discipline using the table below."

And one of the veteran player testers, as well as Main Dude of the ITC, is using the Runes of Fate in his Yannari list (at least that's the impression I got). But he coulda made a mistake.

Care to point out what the qualifier word is in the Yannari psy-text? If not, that's okay.

So, thanks!

First off, we all need to cut Reece some slack. Just because he is on the playtest team for GW, doesn't mean he doesn't make mistakes and doesn't mean he necessarily knows something secret that everyone else doesn't. The guy talks and plays 40k for a living constantly, which like anyone doing that, means he's prone to making mistakes (the more you talk about something as complex as 40k, the more likely you are to accidentally make a mistake). For example in their initial 40k feed showcasing the rules, they mistakenly said that one player got to pick which deployment map to use (instead of rolling for it like the rulebook actually says). In another game feed Reece was adamant that every unit with the Quicksilver ability got to fight first before charging units (which isn't the case), despite people on the chat trying to point out that he was wrong.

But with all that said, if I'm understanding the point of your story correctly, you're asking if a Warlock/Farseer in a Ynnari list still uses the Runes of Battle/Fate discipline? Then the answer is clearly yes (so Reece seems totally right to me here and I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from).

The Farseer and Warlock datasheets clearly say which discipline they are able to pick powers from, and therefore those are the only disciplines they are able to pick powers from unless given permission elsewhere.

There is absolutely nothing in the 'Revenant Discipline' rules which indicates that a Farseer or Warlock (even one with the YNNARI faction keyword) can or should use the Revenant Discipline.

 yakface wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Farseers take powers from Runes of Fate, Warlocks from Runes of Battle, Yvraine & Yncarne - from Revenant. It's as simple as that, regardless if you are running Ynnari or not Ynnari. There can't be any confusion in the rules since they state everything pretty clearly in who can use what in disciplines descriptions and on psyker datasheets.

Well you're wrong on the confusion part. I am confused. Good teachers don't tell students "this is easy" or "you shouldn't be confused" when learning their way through something new. *Any* new information takes time to process. Lucky you if you're so genius that you got it in the first go. Cheers, sir.

Because the delineation between Ultras and Dark Angels is very specific, the lack of that same specificity in the Yannari text is what holds me up. The Dark Angel's paragraph has the conjunction "instead" whereas the Yannari does not have a 'but', instead', or other qualifying / permissive conjunction.

I figured if the language between psy-disciplines would be the same Cut and Paste that all the 'vehicile explode' rules. Throughout the 6 indexes, the language is the same (except d3 or d6) wounds and how it might blow up. Copy/Pasted. I thought, Bravo for GW's consistency.

But that consistency is lacking in Psy selections. So, I'm wondering.

From Chaos: SM - "Plaguecasters must choose ..." < --- rock solid. No confusion there.
From the Chaos Daemon section, *that* text isn't specific (page 69), just saying, " ... Psykers that can use powers from the [lists the 3 psy daemon themes, sex, turds, and wackiness). But let's not go there; I am not confused about that. No Nurgle Sorcerer gets to use the Tzeentch discipline. Too obvious.

Back to Space Marines:
Under Blood angels: " ... generate psy powers for Psykers that can use power from the Sanguinary discipline using the table below ... "
Dark Angels: "Psykers generate their psychic powers from the Interromancy discipline (below) instead of the Librarius discipline." < Specificity!
Space Wolves: " ... generate the psychic powers for Psykers that can use the Tempestas discipline using the table bleow." A near copy / paste of the BAs, but not DAs.

So, Wolves & Blood Angels lack a 'instead' or 'must' like Plaguecasters and Dark Angel libbies. And the Yannari text reads like the BA & SW passages:
From 76 of the Xenos 1 index:
" ... generate the psychic powers for Psykers that can use powers from the Revenant discipline using the table below."

And one of the veteran player testers, as well as Main Dude of the ITC, is using the Runes of Fate in his Yannari list (at least that's the impression I got). But he coulda made a mistake.

Care to point out what the qualifier word is in the Yannari psy-text? If not, that's okay.

So, thanks!

First off, we all need to cut Reece some slack. Just because he is on the playtest team for GW, doesn't mean he doesn't make mistakes and doesn't mean he necessarily knows something secret that everyone else doesn't. The guy talks and plays 40k for a living constantly, which like anyone doing that, means he's prone to making mistakes (the more you talk about something as complex as 40k, the more likely you are to accidentally make a mistake).[/size]

Absolutely, I am cutting Reece some slack, Jon. When he stated it, it put doubts and questions in my mind, bearing him no malice.

 yakface wrote:
For example in their initial 40k feed showcasing the rules, they mistakenly said that one player got to pick which deployment map to use (instead of rolling for it like the rulebook actually says). In another game feed Reece was adamant that every unit with the Quicksilver ability got to fight first before charging units (which isn't the case), despite people on the chat trying to point out that he was wrong.

So anyway, back to the point of the rules.

The Farseer and Warlock datasheets clearly say which discipline they are able to pick powers from, and therefore those are the only disciplines they are able to pick powers from unless given permission elsewhere.

Agreed.

 yakface wrote:
There is absolutely nothing in the 'Revenant Discipline' rules which indicates that a Farseer or Warlock (even one with the YNNARI faction keyword) can use the Revenant Discipline or is able to switch their normal discipline from Runes of Battle to Runes of Fate (or vice-versa).

Agreed. There's ambiguity there. So, how you would rule at a tourney, Jon?

Which elvish psykers are going to chose powers from the Revenant discipline, when I have a farseer, warlock, & spiritseer in my Yannari army? Do they *have* to?

 Brothererekose wrote:

 yakface wrote:
There is absolutely nothing in the 'Revenant Discipline' rules which indicates that a Farseer or Warlock (even one with the YNNARI faction keyword) can use the Revenant Discipline or is able to switch their normal discipline from Runes of Battle to Runes of Fate (or vice-versa).

Agreed. There's ambiguity there. So, how you would rule at a tourney, Jon?

Which elvish psykers are going to chose powers from the Revenant discipline, when I have a farseer, warlock, & spiritseer in my Yannari army? Do they *have* to?

I'm confused...I said there isn't any ambiguity and then you say that you agree with me that there is ambiguity.

Again, the datasheets tell us which disciplines each psyker can pick from. There is NOTHING in the 'Revenant Discipline' rules which says to change any of what is printed on in the unit datasheets.

So a Farseer is always picking from Runes of Fate, whether he/she is Ynnari or not. And a Warlock is always picking from Runes of Battle whether he/she is Ynnari or not.

And I really don't understand how it could be interpreted any other way, honestly.

 yakface wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 yakface wrote:
There is absolutely nothing in the 'Revenant Discipline' rules which indicates that a Farseer or Warlock (even one with the YNNARI faction keyword) can use the Revenant Discipline or is able to switch their normal discipline from Runes of Battle to Runes of Fate (or vice-versa).

Agreed. There's ambiguity there. So, how you would rule at a tourney, Jon?

Which elvish psykers are going to chose powers from the Revenant discipline, when I have a farseer, warlock, & spiritseer in my Yannari army? Do they *have* to?

I'm confused...I said there isn't any ambiguity and then you say that you agree with me that there is ambiguity.

Again, the datasheets tell us which disciplines each psyker can pick from. There is NOTHING in the 'Revenant Discipline' rules which says to change any of what is printed on in the unit datasheets.

So a Farseer is always picking from Runes of Fate, whether he/she is Ynnari or not. And a Warlock is always picking from Runes of Battle whether he/she is Ynnari or not.

And I really don't understand how it could be interpreted any other way, honestly.

Well, if your orange statement is true, then the only models using the Revenant table will be the "The Yncarne" & Yvraine, yes?

 Brothererekose wrote:

 yakface wrote:
And I really don't understand how it could be interpreted any other way, honestly.

Well, if your orange statement is true, then the only models using the Revenant table will be the "The Yncarne" & Yvraine, yes?

Unless I'm missing something obvious, that seems to clearly be the case. Am I missing something obvious?

My overall confusion when it comes to Yannari, is because all the aeldari (elves) lose things like Rising Crescendo, Battle Focus, Power from Pain, etc, in trade for Strength from Death (Soul Burst).

So it makes (to me) a thematic sense that they also might lose their psychic disciplines, in place for the Revenant table.

Just like the Dark Angel libbies absolutely swap theirs away from the vanilla SM powers.

 Brothererekose wrote:
My overall confusion when it comes to Yannari, is because all the aeldari (elves) lose things like Rising Crescendo, Battle Focus, Power from Pain, etc, in trade for Strength from Death (Soul Burst).

So it makes (to me) a thematic sense that they also might lose their psychic disciplines, in place for the Revenant table.

Just like the Dark Angel libbies absolutely swap theirs away from the vanilla SM powers.

if they swap for the revenant table then it would specifically say so like it does for all the faction rules you listed

Ah.

So:

In my Blood Angel army, my librarian would select powers from page 10, but Mephy would select from the Sanguinary discipline (and that's in his data sheet).

Any librarian I have in my Dark Angels army would use Interromancy.

In my Yannari army, the farseer uses Runes of Fate, the Warlock Runes of Battle, the Shadowseer uses Phantasmal and Ygraine uses Revenant.

I see, guys. It is the unit data entries are crystal clear, but I got mislead on the Psy-discipline's wording.

Thanks!

 Brothererekose wrote:
In my Blood Angel army, my librarian would select powers from page 10, but Mephy would select from the Sanguinary discipline (and that's in his data sheet).

This is incorrect. In Imperial Index 1, p89, read the entire text of the "Blood Angels Chapter" paragraph at the top, specifically the final sentence: "BLOOD ANGELS PSYKERS generate their psychic powers from the Sanguinary discipline."

Vanilla Marines and Deathwatch use Librarius. Blood Angels use the vanilla Libby, but swap for Sanguinary as directed, just like all their "stolen" units from vanilla swap tactics and keywords. Same is for Dark Angels and Grey Knights. Space Wolves can't take Librarians and so the datasheet for Rune Priests doesn't need any terms substitution.

Just think of psychic powers the same as any other pistol or wargear/weapon list.

IT TELLS YOU WHAT LIST YOU CAN USE. IF IT DONT TELL YOU TO USE A LIST THEN YOU CANNOT USE THAT LIST.

Keywords have no bearing on the list you can use.