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Basically they get 'fall back' and shoot (infantry, bikes and dreads) at -1 to hit rolls in the shooting phase and +1 to leadership.

Makes me excited to see what everyone else will get.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/14/ultramarines-and-the-redemptor-dreadnought-first-lookgw-homepage-post-2/

Also they covered the Redemptor dread

What do you think?

 Kellevil wrote:
Basically the get 'fall back' and shoot (infantry, bikes and dreads) at -1 to hit rolls in the shooting phase and +1 to leadership.

Makes me excited to see what everyone else will get.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/14/ultramarines-and-the-redemptor-dreadnought-first-lookgw-homepage-post-2/

Also they covered the Redemptor dread

What do you think?

That sounds powerful as frickety-frack. And that Redemptor is ugly as hell.

The Redemptor looks like gak (aesthetically and rules-wise), but I'm more curious about it having a weapon with "Macro" in the title...isn't that the Titan based weapon classification?

The Ultramarines chapter tactic is crap. Not overpowered necessarily, but it's showing that GW is back to it's normal practice:

Goal: Develop a unique, flavorful rule for X.

A: Unit X can re-roll ________.
B: Unit X ignores ________.

Choose one. So fething lazy.

 Purifier wrote:

That sounds powerful as frickety-frack. And that Redemptor is ugly as hell.

How? Infantry, bikes, and dreads. If it's a unit that wants to shoot it isn't usually good in melee. Otherwise it probably has heavy weapons which will be -2 to hit.

 Elbows wrote:
The Redemptor looks like gak (aesthetically and rules-wise), but I'm more curious about it having a weapon with "Macro" in the title...isn't that the Titan based weapon classification?

The Ultramarines chapter tactic is crap. Not overpowered necessarily, but it's showing that GW is back to it's normal practice:

Goal: Develop a unique, flavorful rule for X.

A: Unit X can re-roll ________.
B: Unit X ignores ________.

Choose one. So fething lazy.

I'll have to agree. It's not looking bright on the "new and exciting game mechanics"-front. I guess we can hope that the ultra marines have a boring chapter tactic because they're the bog-standard marines, but I wouldn't bet money on it.
I think the tactic is strong though. Very strong. Extra Leadership combined with traditional small unit sizes of marines makes it basically impossible for Ultramarines to lose models to Ld tests. And being able to withdraw and shoot with almost everything is powerful.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

That sounds powerful as frickety-frack. And that Redemptor is ugly as hell.

How? Infantry, bikes, and dreads. If it's a unit that wants to shoot it isn't usually good in melee. Otherwise it probably has heavy weapons which will be -2 to hit.

Everything in the marines is decent at shooting. And Dreads can be brutal with this. Surviving a round of combat isn't a huge deal for a dread, and then it backs off and brings its full arms to bear and just -1 to hit.

 Elbows wrote:
The Redemptor looks like gak (aesthetically and rules-wise),

For some reason it looks like a toad to me. Fat, bloated, oversized...

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

That sounds powerful as frickety-frack. And that Redemptor is ugly as hell.

How? Infantry, bikes, and dreads. If it's a unit that wants to shoot it isn't usually good in melee. Otherwise it probably has heavy weapons which will be -2 to hit.

Not being good in melle is a great reason to fall back and shoot. The only reason I keep marines in CC is because they can't shoot if they fall back. Most the time I'm going to be falling back into a reroll to hit anyways so the -1 wont be a huge issue (not sure why it needs to be -1) Harlequins can do this naturally with no penalty AND assault afterwards.


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 Kellevil wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
The Redemptor looks like gak (aesthetically and rules-wise),

For some reason it looks like a toad to me. Fat, bloated, oversized...

I think it looks good but why would I want a degreding 13 wound dread when I can have 2 non degrading dreads - likely for the same price.

I doubt it will have macro weapons. Most likely it's simply a name. Macro is a damage type like heavy or assault. It's in the weapon profile itself.

Just like Destroyer Missiles didn't actually do d damage without ML support.

 Xenomancers wrote:


For some reason it looks like a toad to me. Fat, bloated, oversized...

Looks to me like what happens 9 months down the line after a Deff Dread and a Space Marine dreadnought have a one night stand...

That chapter tactic seems fine. It isn't game breaking but it is a clear boost in power. It gives me hope that someone is making sure the power levels don't reach absurd heights at least for a while.

Dread looks like the mr potato head deff dreads people make.

 andysonic1 wrote:
That chapter tactic seems fine. It isn't game breaking but it is a clear boost in power. It gives me hope that someone is making sure the power levels don't reach absurd heights at least for a while.

Very situational. Does nothing against shooting armies. But combined with Capt Sicarius's '6" always go first in cc rule' it makes them super strong against melee armies.

 Lobukia wrote:
Dread looks like the mr potato head deff dreads people make.

that was what it was reminding me of! Man, I was going crazy not figuring out what it was.

 Purifier wrote:

Everything in the marines is decent at shooting. And Dreads can be brutal with this. Surviving a round of combat isn't a huge deal for a dread, and then it backs off and brings its full arms to bear and just -1 to hit.

A dread that cares to shoot - because it isn't charging after - would not score a massive amount of hits. A rifleman dread would tag 1.8 wounds on something.

Dread looks like it drank way too much beer over its lifetime.

 Kellevil wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
That chapter tactic seems fine. It isn't game breaking but it is a clear boost in power. It gives me hope that someone is making sure the power levels don't reach absurd heights at least for a while.

Very situational. Does nothing against shooting armies. But combined with Capt Sicarius's '6" always go first in cc rule' it makes them super strong against melee armies.

The additional LD helps all the time but it's just +1 so it isn't insane. But yeah melee armies are going to have to play smarter against the Ultras. Hopefully World Eater and Black Templar and other melee focused armies get something to help either get into combat or hit harder in combat.

Ya'll need to stop shaming the redemptor's dad bod.

The ultra tactics actually seem really strong if it's just a free upgrade for picking ultras as your keyword? On top of escaping regular frontal assaults and still shooting there's a whole host of unit types with good mobility and durability but not a lot of killing power whose purpose is to get to back lines and force something like devastators to keep falling back and not shooting.

I think the dreadnought is the goofiest model GW has done since the avatar of Ynari which I really didn't like at all and I know hen people seen it they didn't really care for it.

 Gamgee wrote:
I think the dreadnought is the goofiest model GW has done since the avatar of Ynari which I really didn't like at all and I know hen people seen it they didn't really care for it.

I mean, that model is pretty damn recent. When I look at a model I think, is this more, or less, goofy than the santa sleigh.

I like the new Dreadnought and may get one - I think it looks better than the current one. Could have done with bigger legs though

Chapter Tactics: Just to forestall any shouts of bias - I am Marine player and have an Ultramarines army (Well pretty much all armies that GW make).

+1 LD is handy and never a bad thing - especially with ATSKNF.
The Fall back and Shoot - Its a strong ability and remember Marines with be shooting Bolters in rapid fire range at 4+ or even better to hit, flamers and the like auto-hitting.

Neither ability appears to be paid for except for the minor "only applies to Ultramarines"

Codex Creep is not a healthy thing and if they had looked at the ability and said its worth 1pt per model or similar then it might bode better for the ongoing balance of the game.

We don't know what the rest of the Chapter Tactics are but if they are this strong its worrying.

yes other factions and sub-factions are supposed to be getting them - not all and only when (and if) they get a Codex release - so for some probably not this year. In the meantime - Codex Creep.

The dread is a pass for me.

Its no different than most other dreads

AND its also kinda fugly

im thinking it might be because of all the hard lines and smooth curves

not going to lie though i love the looks of the missile pods and the rotor cannon is growing on me.

I like that they're bringing chapter tactics back, however I don't like that they're turning Ultramarines into a gunline army, with assault as an afterthought.

The playstyle for Ultras so far seems to be mass a bunch of nasty volume shooting around Roboute, and waddle around the board laying waste to things, as you're limited by Roboute's 8" move.

I sometimes use Intecessors (because, I don't have 50 conscripts + a commissar) to shield my shooty stuff. In reality, when assault armies do clash into them, it's pretty standard that the entire "defense, hold the line" squad gets entirely wiped out.

So I see this as encouraging gunline play, while also not being a huge deal for the current playstyle of Ultras.

Now, if i wanted to pack terminators or centurions into a land raider and move up the board, that's actually not too bad, considering if people charge the raider i can fall back and light them up with some nasty dice. This is a specific help to redeemers, as they'd behave like FW Tau Riptide which is beast.

All in all it's cool they're bringing these back but i'm not super excited for this specific trait.

A shame they don't have some drawbacks to them, the new CT. But at least this time EVERYONE will have "chapter tactics" so it will be more balanced, instead of being just a flat-out bonus for the privilege of being a Space Marine.

But you subtract one to hit.

No matter, Girlyman patches that up just fine.

In addition, UM now have leadership 9 on basic troops and are leadership 10 for all veteran groups - and with min squads only flee on a six after losing four for basic squads (rerollable too) and veterans auto pass everytime.

I am disappointed.

 Galas wrote:
A shame they don't have some drawbacks to them, the new CT. But at least this time EVERYONE will have "chapter tactics" so it will be more balanced, instead of being just a flat-out bonus for the privilege of being a Space Marine.

They already do have a drawback. Suddenly assault based Ultramarines are not as efficient as another chapter, which will have assault specific tactics.

We also don't know what it will take to get these tactics. If they apply to a detachment, and that detachment must be entirely Ultramarines (highly likely), that will further limit their scope. Suddenly to get this buff you have to pick between that Vindicare assassin or the tactics (for example).

So, i think that's a bit premature. No free lunch, blah blah blah

 Galas wrote:
A shame they don't have some drawbacks to them, the new CT. But at least this time EVERYONE will have "chapter tactics" so it will be more balanced, instead of being just a flat-out bonus for the privilege of being a Space Marine.

Well -1 which isnt really that much of a downside

but then again, if we are being realistic a dedicated assault army will probably lock horns and end a marine squad down to a few dudes at best or out right kill them so that perk will rarely matter. basicly they wont be conscript swamped for the most part

and +1 LD rarely matters. how often do you take moral as marines.

you would need to lose 3 models for it to matter, now its 4

how often do people take a full 10man or even just combat squad them. you end up with a mostly dead unit anyway now.

 Marmatag wrote:
Now, if i wanted to pack terminators or centurions into a land raider and move up the board, that's actually not too bad, considering if people charge the raider i can fall back and light them up with some nasty dice. This is a specific help to redeemers, as they'd behave like FW Tau Riptide which is beast.

"like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts"

Sorry dude, CT won't work on your landraider.

 Frozocrone wrote:
But you subtract one to hit.

No matter, Girlyman patches that up just fine.

In addition, UM now have leadership 9 on basic troops and are leadership 10 for all veteran groups - and with min squads only flee on a six after losing four for basic squads (rerollable too) and veterans auto pass everytime.

I am disappointed.

Hi - so you'd need to be within 8" of Guilliman... So the scope of that scenario is limited.

Also, leadership for marines needed a buff, they were more susceptible to morale losses than freaking conscripts. It makes 0 sense that a devastator squad is WORSE with 10 marines than it is with 7.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ectoplastic wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Now, if i wanted to pack terminators or centurions into a land raider and move up the board, that's actually not too bad, considering if people charge the raider i can fall back and light them up with some nasty dice. This is a specific help to redeemers, as they'd behave like FW Tau Riptide which is beast.

"like all Chapter Tactics, this will apply to your Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts"

Sorry dude, CT won't work on your landraider.

Whoops, good catch. Huge bummer. I guess that's what i get for assuming the machine spirit's identity.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galas wrote:
A shame they don't have some drawbacks to them, the new CT. But at least this time EVERYONE will have "chapter tactics" so it will be more balanced, instead of being just a flat-out bonus for the privilege of being a Space Marine.

They already do have a drawback. Suddenly assault based Ultramarines are not as efficient as another chapter, which will have assault specific tactics.

We also don't know what it will take to get these tactics. If they apply to a detachment, and that detachment must be entirely Ultramarines (highly likely), that will further limit their scope. Suddenly to get this buff you have to pick between that Vindicare assassin or the tactics (for example).

So, i think that's a bit premature. No free lunch, blah blah blah

Is that really a drawback if all ultramarine armies are gunlines with Roubote? I don't really like the army construction restrictions. If I want to make a full assault Khorne army and my Legion Tactic for World Eaters is "All your units gain +2 attacks but you can't take some shooting units" I'm really paying something for that free boost? I was planing to run that army anyway.

Your Krieg Army is inmune to morale but you can't take Ogryns. Well, no problem, I didn't planned to take that from the first place.

My biggest issue as someone rightly pointed out in the rumours thread is not the potential OPness of the rule itself, its the fact that it literally flat out ignores one of the core rules of the game - you cannot fall back and shoot.
The exact same thing happened in 7th which led to the serious clusterfeth that it ended up being.
Stomp being a great example. It openly ignored everything that was written for the hth phase, no comparing WS, no hit or wound roll, no armor save, no positioning for an assault. You basically rolled a few dice and if you got lucky bang, whallop, crunch. Remove your unit from the field.
Free transports in certain force org charts were another. They again literally ignored paying for points, constructing a balanced army/FOC and filling up your actual slots. Instead it was free this and that and feck the rest.
I could go on.

Point being if this is the direction GW is going with army specific buffs and abilities, 8th could well go south fast.

Will Nids get to ignore the d6 advance roll in liue of an automatic 6 since they are fast and manouverable?
Will Eldar be able to cast psychic powers automatically because they are uber psykers?
Will Daemons be able to summon for free again?
Again I could go on.

All of the above ignore the core mechanics of the game for the sake of "fluffy" army-wide bonuses.
Yuk.