Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is a bit of a head-scratcher for me.

Say, you've got a warboss with the 'ignore wounds on a 6' warlord trait next to a painboy, who also has a similar 'ignore wounds on a 6' ability.

They have the exact same effect, but two different sources.

Maybe I'm just stuck in 7th, but in my mind, that constitutes two different '6+ FNP' sources, which means you would only ever get one 'ignore wound' roll.

Buuuuuuuuuuut, I think one could reasonably argue that because you have two different sources of ignoring wounds, you would ignore wounds on a 6+, rerollable.

There's nothing I can think of that outright contradicts this, but it doesn't seem quite right. Again, maybe this is just 7th ed thinking.

It wouldn't work with a 3rd source (or more), I don't think, as you can't reroll a dice more than once. Or would it not technically be a reroll, but a 3rd roll from a new source with a new rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*apologies, this should be in the YMDC thread. I hadn't noticed until I submitted, and can't see a way to move or delete this*

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
This is a bit of a head-scratcher for me.

Say, you've got a warboss with the 'ignore wounds on a 6' warlord trait next to a painboy, who also has a similar 'ignore wounds on a 6' ability.

They have the exact same effect, but two different sources.

Maybe I'm just stuck in 7th, but in my mind, that constitutes two different '6+ FNP' sources, which means you would only ever get one 'ignore wound' roll.

Buuuuuuuuuuut, I think one could reasonably argue that because you have two different sources of ignoring wounds, you would ignore wounds on a 6+, rerollable.

There's nothing I can think of that outright contradicts this, but it doesn't seem quite right. Again, maybe this is just 7th ed thinking.

It wouldn't work with a 3rd source (or more), I don't think, as you can't reroll a dice more than once. Or would it not technically be a reroll, but a 3rd roll from a new source with a new rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*apologies, this should be in the YMDC thread. I hadn't noticed until I submitted, and can't see a way to move or delete this*

You get as many FNP style rolls as you have rules saying you do. The FAQ only says identical modifiers stack (and even then only special snowflake ruling for the Red Grail). "Ignore Wound Rolls" ala FNP don't have this restriction. If you have the Warlord Trait + Painboy + Some other special sauce that may come out, you get 3 chances to ignore the wound.

Yep. Separate rules, separate rolls.
I could take a Crisis Commander with a stimulant injector, have him pal around with an Ethereal with Sense of Stone active, and give him the Warlord Trait for ignoring wounds.
Then, for each wound he receives, I'd roll three dice, and if I ever get a six, he's safe. (Keep in mind, if he got, say, three wounds, that wouldn't be nine dice, that would be three dice rolled separately for each wound.)

Mad dok Grotsnik is all about his don't me me die rolls.

4+ armor save. 5+ SUPER cybork body. Then his own doks tools. And if you make him your warlord. And take thst trait he really might not die.

from the FAQ:

Q. Lots of aura abilities say they grant an ability to nearby
units that are within range of any such models. Are the bonuses
cumulative (i.e. if I am within range of two models with
identical aura abilities, is the bonus doubled)?
A. Unless stated otherwise, no. The bonus for such an
ability applies once if any (i.e. one or more) of these
models are within range.

This to me says no.

Mad dok and the pain boy both have "dok's tools"

and if your groups decide on the more the marrier for FNP, then consider a painboy and biker painboy as the biker has biker dok's tools, which is clearly different from just dok's tools.

but FNP 6 is FNP 6, no matter how many different sources give it to you. roll once.

The FAQ doesn't change anything. The wording on all the variations of Dok's Tools make it clear they can't stack with other Dok's Tools, but nothing suggests they won't "stack" with other sources such as the Warlord trait.

So doks tools specifically call out you can't use doks tools from multiple doks. Even those on bikes.

So i fail to see your argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And ninjaed

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The FAQ doesn't change anything. The wording on all the variations of Dok's Tools make it clear they can't stack with other Dok's Tools, but nothing suggests they won't "stack" with other sources such as the Warlord trait.

You're thinking of the healing roll at the end of the phase, the FNP 6 has no such restriction.

my point is, don't do it.

should others not heed my ruling then by all means go for maximum abuse. see how long it is before it's either faq'd or house ruled to agree with me. but the FAQ reads are aura's doubled? NO, unless otherwise stated.

Is it stated anywhere you can roll multiple times to ignore a wound?

In Grotsniks case the only aura giving him a 6+ is his doks tools.

Warlord trait is not an aura.
Super cybork is not an aura.

So he is not stacking auras at all. He is using 1 aura. 1 ability and 1 warlord trait. And his armor save if he gets one. And a 5++ from a kff if he gets one.

Aka mad dok don't care about your wounds. He to Cray cray

I would say they do stack because the eldar psychic power fortune specifically states that it doesn't stack with other stuff, any fnp type rolls without this clarification would stack.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Is it stated anywhere you can roll multiple times to ignore a wound?

Yes, it's called the rules for Dok's Tools and the Warlord Trait.

I checked the FAQ and it says auras, not rolls and specifically states identical abilites, not similar effects from different sources. Also remember there is no more Feel No pain. All USRs are gone.

Although this maybe not intended, this is the first time I feel like this is how it should be played, even if I'm not sure for RAI. Because the game mechanics and even the FAQ support the idea, even if not directly.

I expect an errata or a FAQ to clear it up/fix it though, cause I don't think they want any type of wound mitigation like that in the game to stack in anyway.

 Tsol wrote:
I checked the FAQ and it says auras, not rolls and specifically states identical abilites, not similar effects from different sources. Also remember there is no more Feel No pain. All USRs are gone.

Although this maybe not intended, this is the first time I feel like this is how it should be played, even if I'm not sure for RAI. Because the game mechanics and even the FAQ support the idea, even if not directly.

I expect an errata or a FAQ to clear it up/fix it though, cause I don't think they want any type of wound mitigation like that in the game to stack in anyway.

Except the fact the Eldar rule explicitly calls it out proves you wrong.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Tsol wrote:
I checked the FAQ and it says auras, not rolls and specifically states identical abilites, not similar effects from different sources. Also remember there is no more Feel No pain. All USRs are gone.

Although this maybe not intended, this is the first time I feel like this is how it should be played, even if I'm not sure for RAI. Because the game mechanics and even the FAQ support the idea, even if not directly.

I expect an errata or a FAQ to clear it up/fix it though, cause I don't think they want any type of wound mitigation like that in the game to stack in anyway.

Except the fact the Eldar rule explicitly calls it out proves you wrong.

What is wrong? I think the wording is fairly straight forward, you do gain the benefits as long as it's not the exact same rule/source (reasoning from FAQ), but I have no idea what Eldar rule you're talking about, so I'll just assume that rule is true.

 Tsol wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Tsol wrote:
I checked the FAQ and it says auras, not rolls and specifically states identical abilites, not similar effects from different sources. Also remember there is no more Feel No pain. All USRs are gone.

Although this maybe not intended, this is the first time I feel like this is how it should be played, even if I'm not sure for RAI. Because the game mechanics and even the FAQ support the idea, even if not directly.

I expect an errata or a FAQ to clear it up/fix it though, cause I don't think they want any type of wound mitigation like that in the game to stack in anyway.

Except the fact the Eldar rule explicitly calls it out proves you wrong.

What is wrong? I think the wording is fairly straight forward, you do gain the benefits as long as it's not the exact same rule/source (reasoning from FAQ), but I have no idea what Eldar rule you're talking about, so I'll just assume that rule is true.

When you say "I don't think they want any type of wound mitigation like that in the game to stack in anyway.", the Eldar rule proves you wrong because if they didn't want them to stack they would have added that rider to every rule that gives FNP style effects.

I just doubled back to see what you're referencing and either I didn't make myself clear enough, or you misunderstood me. I agree with you.

Other sources of similar rules such as two or three different sources/different rules granting similar abilities such as OPs can a "feel no pain" equivalent stack if from separate sources. The answer is yes as long as it does not conflict with any rules and it not sourced from the same model/ identical buff.

Another example is the Minisortium Priest. He grants all IG and SoB units plus one attack. No matter how many priests are around, you only gain +1 attack for his aura. However, if a different model with a different war gear or aura grants +1 attack, this does stack with the priest's aura. Two identical buffs from different sources but using a different special rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, yes. I still stand by that. As written, I also side with you. Play it as you say, but I am fairly confident they, in particular, don't want multiple feel any pain stacks. This is wholly an assumption and only supported by the interpretation of hearsay from dev videos. Which is why I said, I suspect they will limit, errata or FAQ something about it eventually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should also mention, I have not read the Eldar index. I've read all of them except Tau and Eldar (the two armies I have the least interest in).

sorry for jumping in here, but what about the warlord save and the nid psykick power that saves on 5 and 6? One or both?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
wording:

Page 85 – Hive Mind Discipline, Catalyst
Change the last sentence to read:
‘Until the start of your next Psychic phase, each time
that unit loses a wound, roll a D6; on a 5+ the unit does
not lose that wound.’


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tenacious Survivor: Roll a dice each time this Warlord loses a
wound. On a 6, the Warlord shrugs off the damage and does not lose the wound.

 Niiai wrote:
sorry for jumping in here, but what about the warlord save and the nid psykick power that saves on 5 and 6? One or both?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
wording:

Page 85 – Hive Mind Discipline, Catalyst
Change the last sentence to read:
‘Until the start of your next Psychic phase, each time
that unit loses a wound, roll a D6; on a 5+ the unit does
not lose that wound.’


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tenacious Survivor: Roll a dice each time this Warlord loses a
wound. On a 6, the Warlord shrugs off the damage and does not lose the wound.

Works perfectly fine together. You lose a wound, both trigger at the same time, roll a dice for each and if you make it the wound isn't lost. Note how it doesn't have a line like the Eldar Power Fortune which says "If a unit already has an ability with a similar effect this psychic power does not affect them." which would prevent the warlord trait from working.

Cool. I know some people I run into often agrues 'that not how we have done it before' witch can be frustrating.

Also, as far as I know tyranids have the only T8 character? Some demons perhaps? Anyway, this Tervigon is not going down. :-)

So just to make sure the devs do want all the re rolls. This is from the iron hands chapter focus. "....One of the deadliest units available to the Iron Hands is the Venerable Dreadnought, who can combine The Flesh Is Weak with Unyielding Ancient to wade through even the heaviest of fire"

So yes they are all about different things letting you roll.

 Niiai wrote:
Cool. I know some people I run into often agrues 'that not how we have done it before' witch can be frustrating.

Also, as far as I know tyranids have the only T8 character? Some demons perhaps? Anyway, this Tervigon is not going down. :-)

Space wolves have Bjorn.

Question and GW answer on FB about Iron Hands Focus article:

Q:
"the Venerable Dreadnought, who can combine The Flesh Is Weak with Unyielding Ancient to wade through even the heaviest of fire."

Wait, wait. Can you please clarify this... Feel no pain rules stack?

A:
They don't stack but you do get both rules. As Ben above says, it's 2 x 6+ saves. Probably works out the same statistically!

Yeah Bacon, Bjorn is awsome. :-)

 danyboy wrote:
Question and GW answer on FB about Iron Hands Focus article:

Q:
"the Venerable Dreadnought, who can combine The Flesh Is Weak with Unyielding Ancient to wade through even the heaviest of fire."

Wait, wait. Can you please clarify this... Feel no pain rules stack?

A:
They don't stack but you do get both rules. As Ben above says, it's 2 x 6+ saves. Probably works out the same statistically!

was about to post this exact thing. Makes it clear RAI is you can have for instance a 6+/6+/5+ consecutive rolls to negate a wound/damage depending on the abilities involved. Any or all of those different rolls could be re-rolled with Command Points.

 Overheal wrote:

 danyboy wrote:
Question and GW answer on FB about Iron Hands Focus article:

Q:
"the Venerable Dreadnought, who can combine The Flesh Is Weak with Unyielding Ancient to wade through even the heaviest of fire."

Wait, wait. Can you please clarify this... Feel no pain rules stack?

A:
They don't stack but you do get both rules. As Ben above says, it's 2 x 6+ saves. Probably works out the same statistically!

was about to post this exact thing. Makes it clear RAI is you can have for instance a 6+/6+/5+ consecutive rolls to negate a wound/damage depending on the abilities involved. Any or all of those different rolls could be re-rolled with Command Points.

Not all, CP reroll is once per phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Overheal wrote:

 danyboy wrote:
Question and GW answer on FB about Iron Hands Focus article:

Q:
"the Venerable Dreadnought, who can combine The Flesh Is Weak with Unyielding Ancient to wade through even the heaviest of fire."

Wait, wait. Can you please clarify this... Feel no pain rules stack?

A:
They don't stack but you do get both rules. As Ben above says, it's 2 x 6+ saves. Probably works out the same statistically!

was about to post this exact thing. Makes it clear RAI is you can have for instance a 6+/6+/5+ consecutive rolls to negate a wound/damage depending on the abilities involved. Any or all of those different rolls could be re-rolled with Command Points.

Not all, CP reroll is once per phase.

silly me. Well, if some other rule gives you a re-roll on one of those then!

.